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2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread

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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 8:12 AM Post
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Joey Meyer Bombs said:
nodakfan17 said:
Lazard had 25 snaps against the Chargers vs. Kumerow’s 13. It appears Lazard is now the no. 4 WR.


It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if Lazard was soon the #2. He seems to me the only receiver Rodgers trusts other than Adams.


The Packers don't have a #2 WR. I would even go as far as saying they don't have a #3. They have Adams and a group of #4s. But I agree, Lazard should be tossed in the lineup because nobody is getting it done.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 8:35 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
nodakfan17 said:
Lazard had 25 snaps against the Chargers vs. Kumerow’s 13. It appears Lazard is now the no. 4 WR.


It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if Lazard was soon the #2. He seems to me the only receiver Rodgers trusts other than Adams.


The Packers don't have a #2 WR. I would even go as far as saying they don't have a #3. They have Adams and a group of #4s. But I agree, Lazard should be tossed in the lineup because nobody is getting it done.


I sort of get the idea that the Packers expected MVS to make a jump in his second year that just hasn't happened. He's obviously shown flashes, and has every measureable you'd look for in a WR, but he hasn't been able to put it together yet. I think he's learning that you just can't get by on blazing speed alone in the NFL when 90% of DBs also run in the 4.4s. That's what Jeff Janis never got past. Physically MVS and Janis are quite similar. With Janis it was a mental thing. We'll see if that ends up dooming MVS as well. He's obviously still very young and has time.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 8:42 AM Post
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Allison may not play football again. He's a FA this offseason and I can't see anyone spending a dime on a guy that couldn't get it going with Rodgers. Immensely disappointing because I really thought 2-3 years ago he was the next diamond in the rough, and he looked like it for a while.

MVS will get a little more time but not much. Aaron Jones is basically playing WR2 right now. It's absolutely insane that Adams has ONE FEWER YARD than MVS.

Several of these guys are getting cut next summer and I envision at least two new WRs.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 8:49 AM Post
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It's a bummer that St. Brown went down in the preseason. He's basically a faster, more athletic version of Lazard.

I think Allison and Kumerow are on borrowed time by this point. Both are OK enough, but there's just not much upside there. I very much expect the Packers to spend a high pick on a receiver next year. They very much could use a fast slot-type.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 10:25 AM Post
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Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Brew4U said:
I really hope the WR room doesn’t look like that next year. Not much they can do this year but these guys aren’t good enough.


I don't think it's that simple. Part of it is scheme, and part of it is having a QB that doesn't trust the guys at the position. So much of that offense's production is predicated on receivers knowing where to go to find an open spot when Rodgers scrambles and comes out of the pocket. Guys like Nelson, Cobb and James Jones just had that innate ability to find an open window for Rodgers to get them the ball. This new crew, especially MVS, hasn't found that ability yet. We are starting to see it more with Lazard ... which is why I think we're going to see him become the de facto #2 WR through the rest of the year. Rodgers seems to trust him, and looks for him when plays are breaking down. When was the last time you say MVS catch an outlet pass? I LOVE MVS's potential, but he's still so green.


It feels like you just described to me the Brewers starting rotation compared to other teams that have the ability to spend money. This isn't the NFL. Go out and get some real players at these positions. We make so many excuses for these guys because they are Packers. They have Aaron freaking Rodgers as their QB and can make it happen. Lazard is no ones #2. He's a good story stepping in for this sad sack of WR's and that is about it. Hell, put some weight on him and he's probably more serviceable than Jimmy Graham. Not that it's too hard to beat these days.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 10:33 AM Post
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Brew4U said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Brew4U said:
I really hope the WR room doesn’t look like that next year. Not much they can do this year but these guys aren’t good enough.


I don't think it's that simple. Part of it is scheme, and part of it is having a QB that doesn't trust the guys at the position. So much of that offense's production is predicated on receivers knowing where to go to find an open spot when Rodgers scrambles and comes out of the pocket. Guys like Nelson, Cobb and James Jones just had that innate ability to find an open window for Rodgers to get them the ball. This new crew, especially MVS, hasn't found that ability yet. We are starting to see it more with Lazard ... which is why I think we're going to see him become the de facto #2 WR through the rest of the year. Rodgers seems to trust him, and looks for him when plays are breaking down. When was the last time you say MVS catch an outlet pass? I LOVE MVS's potential, but he's still so green.


It feels like you just described to me the Brewers starting rotation compared to other teams that have the ability to spend money. This isn't the NFL. Go out and get some real players at these positions. We make so many excuses for these guys because they are Packers. They have Aaron freaking Rodgers as their QB and can make it happen. Lazard is no ones #2. He's a good story stepping in for this sad sack of WR's and that is about it. Hell, put some weight on him and he's probably more serviceable than Jimmy Graham. Not that it's too hard to beat these days.


I agree, and truly hope they address the lack of talent in the WR room this offseason, through both coaching up the guys they have, and looking outside the organization for talent. For this year, though, our only alternative is polishing that turd until it shines.


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Online  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 10:39 AM Post
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I have to agree with Brew on this. How many "diamond in the rough" receivers ho were late round/undrafted have we seen impress in the short-term only to disappear without a trace soon enough because they were never really a starting caliber receiver to begin with?

Jarrett Boykin, Jeff Janis, Geronimo Allison are a few of the ones in recent history, but Allen Lazard and Jake Kumerow are just the latest and greatest. These guys are great stories, easy to root for, and yes, in the short-term, for lack of better options, they can be used to help us win, but the odds of them being a building block for the future WR corps is very, very slim.

These guys went undrafted or got picked very late for a reason. Yes, there are ones that buck the trend and become productive NFL players, but the reality is that those ones are very few and very far between, and the odds of Lazard being the next one are pretty unlikely. I'll put it in the form of a question. Can you name a single Packer drafted receiver in the Rodgers' era drafted later than the 3rd round who has had any sustained run of success?

The time has come to add another true weapon to pair with Adams for this offense, whether it's by a high pick or free agency. I'm guessing they thought they were doing that with Jimmy Graham, but unfortunately his time has clearly passed. In the long run, scheme and trust are going to take care of themselves. If the receiver is talented enough, he's going to fit into this offense. It doesn't take a unique breed of receiver, it just takes a talented one. And if he's doing his job and getting open, Rodgers is going to trust him.


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Online  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 10:40 AM Post
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No arguments from me on that, Joey. For now, they got who they got and I agree in the short-term Lazard needs more opportunities.


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Online  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 10:44 AM Post
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We got exactly what we constructed and it is amazing the Packers neglected the WR corps this badly. It is pretty damn sad if you ask me.

Adams - 2nd Round Pick
Scantling - 5th Round Pick
Allison - Undrafted
Lazard - Undrafted
Kumerow - Undrafted

4/5 unproven and 3/5 weren't even drafted. I mean...come on Packers.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 10:50 AM Post
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Brew4U said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Brew4U said:
I really hope the WR room doesn’t look like that next year. Not much they can do this year but these guys aren’t good enough.


I don't think it's that simple. Part of it is scheme, and part of it is having a QB that doesn't trust the guys at the position. So much of that offense's production is predicated on receivers knowing where to go to find an open spot when Rodgers scrambles and comes out of the pocket. Guys like Nelson, Cobb and James Jones just had that innate ability to find an open window for Rodgers to get them the ball. This new crew, especially MVS, hasn't found that ability yet. We are starting to see it more with Lazard ... which is why I think we're going to see him become the de facto #2 WR through the rest of the year. Rodgers seems to trust him, and looks for him when plays are breaking down. When was the last time you say MVS catch an outlet pass? I LOVE MVS's potential, but he's still so green.


It feels like you just described to me the Brewers starting rotation compared to other teams that have the ability to spend money. This isn't the NFL. Go out and get some real players at these positions. We make so many excuses for these guys because they are Packers. They have Aaron freaking Rodgers as their QB and can make it happen. Lazard is no ones #2. He's a good story stepping in for this sad sack of WR's and that is about it. Hell, put some weight on him and he's probably more serviceable than Jimmy Graham. Not that it's too hard to beat these days.


You wanted them to sign Randall Cobb (or someone similar)? I don't see that fixing the issue. I think we are just paying the price for poor WR drafting.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 10:50 AM Post
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Brew4U said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Brew4U said:
I really hope the WR room doesn’t look like that next year. Not much they can do this year but these guys aren’t good enough.


I don't think it's that simple. Part of it is scheme, and part of it is having a QB that doesn't trust the guys at the position. So much of that offense's production is predicated on receivers knowing where to go to find an open spot when Rodgers scrambles and comes out of the pocket. Guys like Nelson, Cobb and James Jones just had that innate ability to find an open window for Rodgers to get them the ball. This new crew, especially MVS, hasn't found that ability yet. We are starting to see it more with Lazard ... which is why I think we're going to see him become the de facto #2 WR through the rest of the year. Rodgers seems to trust him, and looks for him when plays are breaking down. When was the last time you say MVS catch an outlet pass? I LOVE MVS's potential, but he's still so green.


It feels like you just described to me the Brewers starting rotation compared to other teams that have the ability to spend money. This isn't the NFL. Go out and get some real players at these positions. We make so many excuses for these guys because they are Packers. They have Aaron freaking Rodgers as their QB and can make it happen. Lazard is no ones #2. He's a good story stepping in for this sad sack of WR's and that is about it. Hell, put some weight on him and he's probably more serviceable than Jimmy Graham. Not that it's too hard to beat these days.


You wanted them to sign Randall Cobb (or someone similar)? I don't see that fixing the issue. I think we are just paying the price for poor WR drafting.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 1:11 PM Post
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I remember before the season how a lot of people were mentioning this WR core as a very strong group and how we might end up losing a really good one by trying to sneak one onto the practice squad. I personally didn’t think we had much talent at the position and that’s really showing right now. Once in awhile you need to draft a wide receiver in the first or second round or go out and sign one that’s a true number 2 once in a while.

And another pet peeve of mine at least with how things were done in the past is we might draft some really fast receiver, but then slot him way down the depth chart. And then by the time they are 26 or 27, now we are relying on them when they just don’t have that top flight speed they once did when they were 21. You want to get faster at the wide receiver position, get a guy that can blow past corners, and make quick cuts? Draft a highly talented receiver in the first round and make him your number 2 or 3 early on when he has young legs and can just torch the defense. You’ll have him for multiple years at a skilled position and have him contributing right away. Get Rodgers a wide receiver that’s a real weapon to pair with Adams.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 5:00 PM Post
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Compare the glory years WRs to this one. Nelson, Jennings, Cobb, Driver, Jones. Take out Driver and the latest pick of them is 78th overall. All of the WRs we've drafted lately with the exception of Adams have been disappointments. All of them.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 7:06 PM Post
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Good news is 2020 WR class is fantastic looking. 8 guys who very well could go in first round, 4 more not that far behind. Alabama has its 3 horses. They imo have the greatest WR dynamic in FBS history. Waddle is only a true Sophomore. Jeudy is most complete & elite route runner. Ruggs is literally a bigger Tyreek Hill on the field with 4.2 speed. At one point he had scored 22 TDs on only 73 touches! Smith lives in shadows a bit compared to them but as his 278 yard & 5TD game showed, he’s top notch as well. He has best hands & is a very good jump ball WR even at only 6’1.

Then you think about Lamb at OU, Higgins who most fits the Packers mold at Clemson, Jefferson at LSU, the kid from Colorado Shenault. Johnson from Minny & Reagor from TCU get a ton of attention as well.

There are some solid FAs as well with Cooper, Green, Robby Anderson, Josh Gordon is always a risk worth trying, still only Kumerow’s age. That’s just to name a few.

Biggest mistake they can make is just hoping these guys pan out again & not going after a high draft pick WR or a Robby Anderson


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 10:01 PM Post
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For all his faults, Ted knew how to draft wide receivers.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 06, 2019, 10:32 PM Post
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The 2017 draft is really haunting them. Smith-Schuster and Kupp taken right after Josh Jones, Golladay taken shortly after Adams.

The problem is that there are a lot of positions to fill and only three day 1-2 draft picks. Bulaga is a FA after the season and Bak after the following season - I think they have to invest in OT somewhere early. Blake Martinez is a FA after the season and they have nothing behind him - where do they go LB? If one of the QBs slides (Herbert, Eason, Fromm), do they pull the trigger?

Nelson, Jennings, Cobb - all 2nd round picks, Jones a 3rd. Doesn't have to be a 1st rounder to be effective.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 07, 2019, 7:47 AM Post
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I don't think the pass-catching aspect is a surprise at all. It was a given the TE situation was going to be pretty bad unless a one-year wonder, third-round pick really over-achieved, and you have to figure that is a long shot. And as far as WR, you have problems when Geronimo Allison was projected to be the team's #2 receiver. Valdes-Scantling may have the upside, but right now he's a one-dimensional deep threat who contributes next to nothing underneath because his hands aren't very good and his route-running is sloppy.

What Packer fans should be worried about is the completely mediocre defense. I made an Excel spreadsheet of the three major categories (average yards per run play against, average yards per pass play against, takeaways), team at #1 gets 32 points, team at #2 gets 31 points on down the line. Takeaways are handled as such...4 teams are tied for 6th so each of those teams gets 25.5 points. I will acknowledge that this system isn't perfect right now because a few teams have played less games, so one less game for them to generate takeaways. Still, I think this is a pretty solid means to get an overall picture of defensive performance so far. Packers are #20. That is with a pretty respected coordinator. And still only #20 which isn't that good when one looks at the resources they've thrown into that group. Za'Darius Smith, Preston Smith, Adrian Amos. Rashan Gary, Darnell Savage, Jaire Alexander, Josh Jackson. And the defense was rotten a couple years back but the cupboard wasn't completely bare when the new GM took over (Kenny Clark, Blake Martinez). To make 7 significant investments in the defense over the last two off-seasons, and have it perform at this level is very disappointing. The only real plus in this defense is the takeaways, but when they get in the playoffs they will be facing better QBs each week and those guys are much less prone to give the ball away. I always include takeaways when putting together a spreadsheet like this, but if you delete that column and just use average yards given up per pass play and run play, the ranking tumbles all the way down to #27. That's poor and not a good reflection on the new GM at all. And IMO they have to play with these guys on defense the next couple years and get better, because certainly this coming off-season the resources have to go to the offensive side of the ball (WR, TE, OT). It's gotten to the point where they just can't ignore that side of the ball anymore.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 07, 2019, 9:05 AM Post
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The defense should not surprise anyone. I'm truly mystified by that. The only guys who perform consistently are literally the ones they signed this offseason. Amos and the Smiths. The rest of that defense is just guys, with the exception of Kenny Clark, who is struggling. Blake Martinez is a guy, the rest of them are wildly up and down rookies/young guys that have never actually shown much of anything. That's a harsh judgement of Alexander, but mostly true. He is probably the best of the bunch, but still gets burned a ton and gives up huge chunks of yardage.

I would say the cupboard was absolutely bare when the new GM took over. Only a Packers fan would think it wasn't. When you say it isn't bare and list Blake Martinez, it's bare. It's extremely uncommon for first- and second-year players to be as effective as you need them to be up front in a defense. That's a man's spot on the field and takes years for most guys to grow into it.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 07, 2019, 10:00 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
The defense should not surprise anyone. I'm truly mystified by that. The only guys who perform consistently are literally the ones they signed this offseason. Amos and the Smiths. The rest of that defense is just guys, with the exception of Kenny Clark, who is struggling. Blake Martinez is a guy, the rest of them are wildly up and down rookies/young guys that have never actually shown much of anything. That's a harsh judgement of Alexander, but mostly true. He is probably the best of the bunch, but still gets burned a ton and gives up huge chunks of yardage.

I would say the cupboard was absolutely bare when the new GM took over. Only a Packers fan would think it wasn't. When you say it isn't bare and list Blake Martinez, it's bare. It's extremely uncommon for first- and second-year players to be as effective as you need them to be up front in a defense. That's a man's spot on the field and takes years for most guys to grow into it.


I think it was more a surprise that they looked so competent the first three weeks of the season, which perhaps led to a bit of false hope. As you said, despite the obvious upgrades the team made in the offseason, there are still multiple holes, especially in lacking speed in the middle of the field. I'm more bullish than you are on your claim that a bunch of the young guys haven't actually shown much of anything, though. Both King and Alexander have shown to be excellent talents at times, but as you pointed out, have been very inconsistent.

I admit that I was once a big Blake Martinez believer. I think that he would have been an All-Pro MLB had be played in this league 20 years ago. But this year has proven to me that his style of play just isn't a fit for the new NFL. The leadership and smarts he brings just can't make up for his lack of speed and athleticism. The Packers are trying to fit another A.J. Hawk into a Devin Bush-sized hole.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Green Bay Packers Season Thread
Posted: November 07, 2019, 10:17 AM Post
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I think Alexander is talented enough and has played well enough to make you think he's a top corner, but you still have to actually be that guy week in and week out. Can't remember which week it was, but he got absolutely lit up in one this year, I want to say Dallas but haven't looked it up. Patience is running thin with King. He's becoming the next early pick that people are clinging to, but has not done much of anything. It gets to a point where people keep talking about talent at every position but somebody is responsible for a team ranking in the bottom 8 in pass yards. Spent a few years hearing Burnett and HHCD were great players and then suddenly we wanted to replace them both. There is just a big disconnect between fan perception and reality pretty often.

You can have average starters. You can have an average MLB or an average DT, but you can't have average both.


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