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2019 NFL miscellaneous news

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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 19, 2020, 5:11 PM Post
Posts: 2300
KC is so good, they can afford to take the first quarter off every week.


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Online  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 19, 2020, 5:12 PM Post
Posts: 14161
homer said:
I had no idea the Titans OC was the son of the guy that founded FedEx.


These are the kind of random facts that I demand in life.


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Online  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 23, 2020, 4:39 PM Post
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Eli Manning retired and “analysts” think he is a HOFer (majority do). Is the football hall of fame that big of a joke? Some even think without the rings he would be “compelling”. To me the two ring are the only worthy thing on his resume.

Wow, he would not even be on the HOF radar to me....not even close.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 23, 2020, 4:43 PM Post
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The football HOF is kind of a joke though. There are very few fringe players. It's not at all like baseball's where a bunch of really good players aren't in. Guys like Cecil Cooper would get into Canton with ease. That's why baseball has the best one by far IMO.

He shouldn't get in but he will because of notoriety and the fact that basically everyone remembers his Super Bowls really fondly. Based on the precedent they've set and how watered down it is, it's hard to see him not doing it.

That said I've always thought it was weird Sterling Sharpe isn't in. He was clearly on that trajectory and got hurt. He was blowing up records for that era and they've let much worse guys in.


Last edited by OldSchoolSnapper on January 23, 2020, 4:44 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 23, 2020, 4:43 PM Post
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MrTPlush said:
Eli Manning retired and “analysts” think he is a HOFer (majority do). Is the football hall of fame that big of a joke? Some even think without the rings he would be “compelling”. To me the two ring are the only worthy thing on his resume.

Wow, he would not even be on the HOF radar to me....not even close.


If Eli would have entered the league a decade earlier, and been a contemporary of Favre, Aikman and Young, and put up the stats he did, he would have been a no-doubt Hall of Famer. He candidacy is somewhat hurt by playing in the era that he did, where he was overshadowed by guys like Rodgers and Roethlisberger, and even Romo for a time. But his 2 rings and longevity probably eventually get him to the hall. He's one of those guys that will probably look better as his career ages. He did have some great seasons.

Formerly Joey Meyer Bombs


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 23, 2020, 4:49 PM Post
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I mean...he really didn't have any great seasons. If your criteria is titles then yes. But he was truly never very good. I'm not sure how comparing him to Favre and Aikman really works. We can say that about a lot of more recent players. 30 TDs and 3000 yards used to be a milestone. 3000 yards is 100% meaningless today. There are routinely 26/12 type guys that teams move on from.

Two seasons of 30+ TDs for when he played, and a 60% completion %, plus ALL of those picks...without the Super Bowls and name, there is no way that guy is getting into the HOF. He was basically a durable above average QB.

I don't think there was one season in which Eli was a top 5 QB.


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Online  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 23, 2020, 6:23 PM Post
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He got overshadowed by people because he flat out wasn’t that good. He is all name and two playoff runs. To be exact he did not win a single playoff game outside of those two runs. Though to be fair he only managed the playoffs six years.

To be honest I bet he doesn’t make it if he wasn’t a Manning.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 23, 2020, 6:52 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I mean...he really didn't have any great seasons... I don't think there was one season in which Eli was a top 5 QB.

I don't know how he could have been a top-5 QB considering the offenses he played in. Tom Coughlin wasn't exactly known as an innovator on offense, and recently he played on some bad teams (only one winning season the last seven years).

What if Manning had been traded to the Saints and Brees traded to the Giants? Or, what if Payton had been hired by the Giants and Coughlin by the Saints? How would that have affected their respective career arcs?

Manning retired ranked 7th all-time in passes completed, yards, and TDs. Maybe those are archaic stats now, but that's the job of the QB - complete passes, move the ball, score TDs. Lots of other stats are dependent on the offensive scheme - and surrounding talent. Using Pro Football Reference's Career AV as a proxy for value, he finished 30th all time in Career AV and 41st all time in weighted CAV.

If nothing else, he was durable - he started something like 210 consecutive games which also ranks top-5 all time. Yes, his career passer rating isn't spectacular, but it's ahead of a lot of hall of famers including Aikman, Moon, Fouts, and Elway. Yes, he had a lot of interceptions, but Marino, Unitas, Tarkenton, Blanda and Farve had more. Those guys aren't getting kicked out of the hall.

One last point - other than OB-J, who played with Manning for four seasons (missed almost all of 2017, and complained his way out in 2018), who was the next best wide receiver to play with Manning? Who were his left tackles? Exactly.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 23, 2020, 7:33 PM Post
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Plaxico Burress who was instrumental in getting him a ring and Victor Cruz who was a monster during the second one. Careers cut short due to stupidity and injuries, but very good players. Along with Shockey, Barber and Jacobs.

Some of those arguments fall apart though when you consider that he didn't win a whole lot. It's not like a Rodgers or a Marino where he was carrying bad teams. A lot of his teams were really bad and he was one reason. His first Super Bowl season was just flat out bad.

A lot of the guys you listed make the argument against him. He has four HOFers in his similarity scores and they're all from the 70s and 80s. Joe Montana is one of his comps, which shows you how disingenuous that can get. QB rating is just a really bad measure for guys in different decades. Derek Carr looks like Michael Jordan if you toss him in John Elway. There is just too much scoring now and 30 TDs is not the mountain it was.

Eli is beneficiary of two historic playoff runs. Even with just one of those he's going down as another Joe Flacco or Drew Bledsoe. The second one is an anomaly and it's probably going to get him in.

The fact that we have to justify Eli with a bunch of old players should sound the alarm.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 23, 2020, 8:20 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
Plaxico Burress who was instrumental in getting him a ring and Victor Cruz who was a monster during the second one. Careers cut short due to stupidity and injuries, but very good players. Along with Shockey, Barber and Jacobs.

While Barber was a good pass catcher, he wasn't on either of the Super Bowl teams. He only overlapped with Manning for three seasons. The second Super Bowl season, Jacobs only had 571 rushing yards in 14 games. Jacobs only had two 1000 yard seasons in his career, and both were barely over 1000 yards; he also only had ~700 receiving yards total in his career. Shockey was only on the first Super Bowl team, and wasn't a Pro Bowler that year.

Speaking of the Super Bowl teams, the first one only had one Pro Bowler on it, and he was on defense (Umenyiora). The second Super Bowl team only had two Pro Bowlers - Pierre-Paul, and Manning. Those weren't talent-laded juggernauts that Manning was along for the ride like Trent Dilfer; to lead those two teams to the Super Bowl I think makes his case. No Pro Bowl offensive linemen on either team. The second Super Bowl team ranked 9th in points scored but 25th in points against, with no running back rushing for more than 700 yards.

Also, speaking of the Super Bowl teams, in those two post-seasons combined Manning threw 15 TDs to 2 INTs with QB ratings of 95.7 and 103.1. They won those Super Bowl because of him.

And he still had to play within Coughlin's system.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 23, 2020, 9:06 PM Post
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They didn't have Pro Bowlers because those two teams won 19 regular season games combined and nobody votes Pro Bowlers from 9-7 teams.

I know that most of those guys had short lived careers and remember there was major drama between Eli and Barber. There was something about Barber saying he wouldn't win a title etc. and then they immediately did. Shockey was irrelevant on the first title team, he was hurt most of the season. I didn't mention them as reasons they won titles, just that he played with good players over his career.

But I have to object to the teams that won not being talented. They both had monster defensive fronts. In both cases, that's why they won titles. Tuck was hurt the second time, and getting him back helped them make a run. The first team had him, Osi and an aging but still productive Strahan.

For some reason I remember the 2007 run more, but that was a team people knew had underachieved and a lot of people didn't want to play them in the playoffs.

At least in 2011 Eli had a nice season.

A really damning thing for Eli is how many years they were just bad. They missed the playoffs eight times, basically half his career, and that includes qualifying at 8-8. I can't imagine if the Packers had been that bad that often during Rodgers career.

I expect Eli will get in because they beat New England twice, but it is really lowering the bar IMO. I just don't see any modern QB near his numbers getting in. Brees missed the playoffs a bit too, but he's rewriting records and their numbers aren't even close.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 23, 2020, 9:51 PM Post
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I kinda feel like Eli is the Florida Marlins of QBs. Couple of rings surrounded by a whole lot of blah. QB record is probably just as dubious as pitcher wins, but he was 117-117 as a regular season starter.

I don't have a problem with him making HOF, but that's probably because I don't really care about the football HOF.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 24, 2020, 7:28 AM Post
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Like I said earlier, they've already set a precedent of allowing pretty blah players in. It's not Cooperstown. But then it's odd that they stonewall guys like LeRoy Butler, who EASILY surpass the type of player they've allowed in. Show me why John Lynch and Brian Dawkins are in there and he's not. Name recognition is the only reason, and those two guys aren't even the kind of meh players I'm referring to.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 24, 2020, 12:20 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
Like I said earlier, they've already set a precedent of allowing pretty blah players in. It's not Cooperstown. But then it's odd that they stonewall guys like LeRoy Butler, who EASILY surpass the type of player they've allowed in. Show me why John Lynch and Brian Dawkins are in there and he's not. Name recognition is the only reason, and those two guys aren't even the kind of meh players I'm referring to.


I agree with you on Butler, but I'd be curious to know who you're considering 'blah' players?


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 24, 2020, 12:43 PM Post
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Namath is pretty terrible compared with players from any era. He and George Blanda threw 40-50 more INTs than TDs. Namath in particular completed half his passes. He was just not very good, and benefited from New York, and really from one galvanizing moment for the league. The NFL lets guys in for one big thing like that, baseball really doesn't. The NFL also rewards being "pretty good" for a long period of time but there are a lot of guys in the hall that don't really embody greatness.

If you want to be shocked look up Troy Aikman. I couldn't believe how mediocre he was the first time I did, even with his peers. They were the offensive line and Emmitt Smith's team, and you can make an argument he was a big-game QB. The titles speak volumes for getting into Canton.

These kinds of guys make Eli's case though. I've just always thought it was very different from Cooperstown, where you can go pages and pages of debate about borderline guys. The NFL has few players like that, and almost all of the fringe guys do get in. Butler is almost definitely going to get in eventually.

Players like Scott Rolen and Cecil Cooper wouldn't have any trouble getting into the HOF with football's standards.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 24, 2020, 8:00 PM Post
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IMO, the biggest "blah" in the NFL Hall of Fame is Lynn Swann.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 24, 2020, 8:58 PM Post
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He's another great one. Titles and having a famous play.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 24, 2020, 11:52 PM Post
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To be fair, Bill Mazeroski is in the baseball hall of fame. I'm just saying ...

On Eli, during one of these debates a few years ago I created a statistical model to predict if a quarterback is a Hall of Famer (it correctly calls everyone except Namath and Ken Anderson, and no statistical model is going to put Namath in). I haven't updated it in a couple of years, but last time I looked Eli was behind guys like Mark Brunell, Donovan McNabb and Craig Morton. And that is with bonus points for Super Bowl titles.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 25, 2020, 7:22 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
These kinds of guys make Eli's case though. I've just always thought it was very different from Cooperstown, where you can go pages and pages of debate about borderline guys. The NFL has few players like that, and almost all of the fringe guys do get in.


I think you might be a little over-harsh on your criticism, as you named 2 guys out of the 350-ish that are in. I think Namath likely gets in more on his persona as a 'contributor' to the league's establishment and development more than anything. But I agree that his numbers are pretty poor. You could make a strong case for Aikman as a legit guy, as Smith almost certainly kept his TD numbers artifically low. But I'd like to see him ranked out vs. his peers in the 90's.

OldSchoolSnapper said:
Show me why John Lynch and Brian Dawkins are in there and he's not.


Also worth noting that Lynch isn't in the HOF, but is also a finalist like Butler this year.


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Offline  Re: 2019 NFL miscellaneous news
Posted: January 25, 2020, 6:11 PM Post
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Joe Namath's stats are pretty pedestrian. I realize most QB's of that era are as well but...dude only had 2 seasons where he threw more TD than INTs.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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