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Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread

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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 8:21 AM Post
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Agree that the problem isn't Giannis, but pretending the 2/3 thing is just semantics isn't honest. The Bucks need a player with a good handle that can create scoring opportunities AND shoot himself when nothing's there. Bledsoe isn't it and that's not what Middleton does. I have no problem at all with Middleton, he fills an important role. But the issue looms large on the nights he scores 11 points, because he's not a PG creating offense for other guys. If Middleton isn't scoring he's not really doing anything else.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 9:25 AM Post
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adambr2 said:
“It’s not happening. That’s not happening,” Antetokounmpo told Haynes.(requesting a trade to leave Milwaukee)

"Some see a wall and go in [another direction]. I plow through it. We just have to get better as a team, individually and get right back at it next season.”

“If winning a championship was easy, everyone would have one,” Antetokounmpo said. “We lost. Everyone saw that we lost. It’s disappointing, but what are we going to do? We’re going to keep working. I’ve got confidence in my teammates.”


Impressive talk. I hope he's the 1/100 to actually back it up and build here in Milwaukee.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 10:06 AM Post
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Location: Washburn, WI
I hope the Bucks go all out and bring in Bradley Beal. He is exactly what they need to win a Championship. He is due nearly $29 million next season and the Bucks will need to line up financially to make the trade.

You start with Bledsoe and his $17 million. They will be able to flip him for a pick or two. Pick up Ilyasova’s contract for $7 million and trade him. Add Donte DiVincenzo and his $3 million to get the numbers close and as a solid player that the Wizards would love to add. Add the first round pick the Bucks got from the Pacers for the 2020 draft and one of their own whether it’s a 2021 or 2022 first round pick.

Bucks Receive:
Bradley Beal

Wizards Receive:
Eric Bledsoe
Donte DiVincenzo
Ersan Ilyasova
2 first round picks

Giannis has the ball in his hands and can be the point guard/point forward and with George Hill on the roster, we will be fine.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 11:36 AM Post
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Lots of buzz about Chris Paul to Milwaukee (Philly is another potential). If the Bucks could trade Bledsoe and others to get Paul a starting lineup that had Paul, Middleton, Giannis, would be really dangerous.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 11:39 AM Post
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CBS with an early report that the Bucks will not trade Giannis even if he doesn't sign an extension this off-season, which I think would be a mistake. It takes a lot of years to rebuild a team, and add in FAs not wanting to come to Milwaukee, it would take a very long while in Milwaukee. But trading Giannis would bring back a haul of talent. OKC is a good example of what happens when you just let good players walk. Bleacher Report put some potential trades together, which were basically 2-3 young players plus 2 first-round picks. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/290 ... etokounmpo

I thought the Lakers would have been pretty mediocre this year for having two great players and basically nothing else. But I guess it's really more a game of individual stars than a collection of overall talent.

But mostly I think it's the fault of Budenholzer. He's well-known for never making in-game adjustments, and we've seen how far that gets you in the playoffs with even a great regular-season team. No reason a Giannis Wall should have worked two years in a row. And no reason Giannis shouldn't be getting 25 assists per game when teams overload on him.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 11:49 AM Post
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I think it's the right move. This is the NBA, if the Bucks trade Giannis, in the best case scenario, they get a guy or guys for a couple years that will allow them to sit in 46-win purgatory and be a playoff team that never does anything significant. I'd rather push all the chips in for one year knowing Giannis is going to leave. Maybe you still don't win it, but I'd take one year of the conference finals, 60 wins, etc., and being an actual player in exchange for going back to 30-52.

Then you can approach the following year with a clean slate and some money. I'm just not interested at all in some stopgap guys and a probably meh draft pick that lets us be a 6 seed.

So, I would tweak the roster next year in an attempt to get us over the hump. If they fail, they fail, but I'd rather die trying than just punt one year of Giannis away. We waited too long to get a generational star to sacrifice even one year of his career here.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 12:23 PM Post
Posts: 5268
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Agree that the problem isn't Giannis, but pretending the 2/3 thing is just semantics isn't honest. The Bucks need a player with a good handle that can create scoring opportunities AND shoot himself when nothing's there. Bledsoe isn't it and that's not what Middleton does. I have no problem at all with Middleton, he fills an important role. But the issue looms large on the nights he scores 11 points, because he's not a PG creating offense for other guys. If Middleton isn't scoring he's not really doing anything else.


I didn't mean to argue it's semantics, I meant to argue it's...overrated. I don't know what the right way or wording it would be. I don't believe you HAVE to have two superstars to win.

I think we're generally in agreement. We need another ball handler who can get to the hoop, distribute and shoot. If that guy is a healthy John Wall or a Bradley Beal...or even an aging Chris Paul, that'd be awesome. But I don't even think it needs to be someone on that level.

Disagree about Middleton not doing anything else if he's not scoring though. He's a good defender, good rebounder and a good passer. He's a well rounded player. I think maybe you meant more if his shot's not falling, he's not a guy who's going to run an offense. If so, again, I agree with that.


Basically the perfect player for the Bucks is a Bledsoe who can shoot. At least shoot well enough that you're not taking a perimeter defender and sagging off him so that whoever catches the ball is already facing a double team. Regular season Bledsoe is a really solid player. But he's proven beyond a doubt for even the most optimistic fans that he just isn't cut out to be a starting PG on a Championship team. Unless they have a dominant 2 guard.

And I even think he's worth the money he's getting paid. But he's really the only piece you can use to make a trade to improve this team. I just have a hard time finding a fit where we get a good enough player back that it makes a difference and a team that is willing to trade that player to get out of a 20-30 million dollar deal. Washington sure as hell isn't looking to dump Beal. I have to imagine they could do better than Bled and Ersan's contracts, a player like DiVinicenzo and a couple of 1sts. Maybe Wall...but he has ~3/120 remaining and I believe a trade kicker that adds another 20 million to that deal. AND he hasn't played since early in 2019 due to a ruptured achillies.


I think the Bucks best bet would be trying to find a good ball handler in the draft, hope Donte continues to develop and see who you can get to sign in free agency. We might be able to get a guy to take a 1 year 10 million dollar deal with a player option for a 2nd given the uncertain landscape the NBA is entering this off-season.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 12:37 PM Post
Posts: 5268
RollieTime said:
I hope the Bucks go all out and bring in Bradley Beal. He is exactly what they need to win a Championship. He is due nearly $29 million next season and the Bucks will need to line up financially to make the trade.

You start with Bledsoe and his $17 million. They will be able to flip him for a pick or two. Pick up Ilyasova’s contract for $7 million and trade him. Add Donte DiVincenzo and his $3 million to get the numbers close and as a solid player that the Wizards would love to add. Add the first round pick the Bucks got from the Pacers for the 2020 draft and one of their own whether it’s a 2021 or 2022 first round pick.

Bucks Receive:
Bradley Beal

Wizards Receive:
Eric Bledsoe
Donte DiVincenzo
Ersan Ilyasova
2 first round picks

Giannis has the ball in his hands and can be the point guard/point forward and with George Hill on the roster, we will be fine.


I'm all for that...as much as I'd hate to lose DiVincenzo since I think he's capable of becoming a really good player. Maybe even a 20 PPG player and one of the only guys on this team who could develop into an All-Star(the only player really).

But Beal is just too perfect a fit. And he's really the guy that would make or break that deal for the Wizzards. Do they view him as a Ginobili type player or more of a 6th man. Because if it's the later, you're basically giving him away for a salary dump and two late 1st round picks. You save 7 million this year on Ersan and then you save another maybe 15 on Bledsoe the year after next with his non-guaranteed deal.

But damn...Giannis/Beal/Middleton would certainly give you a core that could win a title and you'd have to assume you'd be able to get solid players to sign for the MLE, the Bi-Annual or even the Vets minimum.


We'll see how good Horst is this off-season. I don't belive there's much of a chance the Bucks owners limit how much he can spend with the future of the franchise hanging in the balance. I get that people believe they did that last year with Brogdon, but I can't imagine they'd do it again if Giannis doesn't re-sign.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 1:33 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I think it's the right move. This is the NBA, if the Bucks trade Giannis, in the best case scenario, they get a guy or guys for a couple years that will allow them to sit in 46-win purgatory and be a playoff team that never does anything significant. I'd rather push all the chips in for one year knowing Giannis is going to leave. Maybe you still don't win it, but I'd take one year of the conference finals, 60 wins, etc., and being an actual player in exchange for going back to 30-52.

Then you can approach the following year with a clean slate and some money. I'm just not interested at all in some stopgap guys and a probably meh draft pick that lets us be a 6 seed.

So, I would tweak the roster next year in an attempt to get us over the hump. If they fail, they fail, but I'd rather die trying than just punt one year of Giannis away. We waited too long to get a generational star to sacrifice even one year of his career here.



Just to play devils advocate, if Giannis DID ask to be traded(he hasn't, so it's a moot point) and they were offered a package like what the Thunder got last year as they held the Clippers hostage(Kawhi wasn't going to sign unless LAC added George)...that's a trade that would probably come as close to a fair market value as you could get for Giannis.

A young budding superstar PG in Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, a 6'6 PG/Combo guard who's just 20, Danilo Gallinari, an extremely valuable stretch 4 who hits about 40 pct from 3 and then FIVE future 1sts and the right to swap two more.

But at that point, I'd try and shop Gallinari for a couple 1sts and then you'd have to decide if you're going to build around Alexander.

It's also easier to speculate about trading away your Superstar when you know it's not likely to happen as he's actually said he's DEFINITELY not going to ask for a trade and he may even re-sign.



By the way, has any franchise EVER done a better job of acquiring assets for the future while actually IMPROVING as a team?


You take Westbrook and George and you trade them for Chris Paul(better PG than Westbrook), Gallinari and Alexander...again, a young stud. Then you add TEN FUTURE 1ST ROUND PICKS, plus the right to swap in a few other drafts. And with the Clippers, those picks could actually be worth something. The Picks start when Kawhi's contract is set to expire, so there's a chance they could be a really bad team. Houston's are down the road, so again, COULD be after Harden and Westbrook at done or near the end.

So just the players, you might actually acquire more talent and you get the young stud in the trade, but then you also stockpile a ridiculous number of 1st rounders from I think a total of 4 different teams. Now you can trade Paul and likely add young assets...etc...

They can afford to draft and stash any talented young European player, take a filer on a high upside guy like Portter Jr who dropped last year, take a lot of risks in the draft or package those picks.


But yeah, they weren't in a position to try and add another talented player and make a legit run a title. In fact, the year Durant left was Donovan's first year in OKC and they went up 3-1 on the Warriors.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 1:35 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I think it's the right move. This is the NBA, if the Bucks trade Giannis, in the best case scenario, they get a guy or guys for a couple years that will allow them to sit in 46-win purgatory and be a playoff team that never does anything significant. I'd rather push all the chips in for one year knowing Giannis is going to leave. Maybe you still don't win it, but I'd take one year of the conference finals, 60 wins, etc., and being an actual player in exchange for going back to 30-52.

Then you can approach the following year with a clean slate and some money. I'm just not interested at all in some stopgap guys and a probably meh draft pick that lets us be a 6 seed.

So, I would tweak the roster next year in an attempt to get us over the hump. If they fail, they fail, but I'd rather die trying than just punt one year of Giannis away. We waited too long to get a generational star to sacrifice even one year of his career here.



I'll be a little more succinct here. What do you think about the Coaching situation? Some reporters noted that Giannis seemed to be maybe a bit irked with Coach Bud for not making adjustments in game(which...hell, why would you expect that when he couldn't do it from game to game) and for limiting his playing time and Middleton's.

Would you rather have Donovan heading into next year or Bud?


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 2:46 PM Post
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I'm all for the Bucks saying "He Giannis, we'd be totally fine with firing Bud if you sign an extension. Just don't ask for Kidd back." Maybe that would help keep him here.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 3:06 PM Post
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I don't think Bud will be fired unless they know explicitly that Giannis does not want him here. Giannis doesn't seem like one to blame a coach, the guy was trying to get Kidd re-hired the day he was fired. Personally? I'd rather have Donovan, but I think Bud is safe for 1 year. I know this is 99% unrelated to his future here, but Bud did list his house for sale a few months ago.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 3:06 PM Post
Posts: 6299
GAME05 said:
CBS with an early report that the Bucks will not trade Giannis even if he doesn't sign an extension this off-season, which I think would be a mistake. It takes a lot of years to rebuild a team, and add in FAs not wanting to come to Milwaukee, it would take a very long while in Milwaukee. But trading Giannis would bring back a haul of talent. OKC is a good example of what happens when you just let good players walk. Bleacher Report put some potential trades together, which were basically 2-3 young players plus 2 first-round picks. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/290 ... etokounmpo

I thought the Lakers would have been pretty mediocre this year for having two great players and basically nothing else. But I guess it's really more a game of individual stars than a collection of overall talent.

But mostly I think it's the fault of Budenholzer. He's well-known for never making in-game adjustments, and we've seen how far that gets you in the playoffs with even a great regular-season team. No reason a Giannis Wall should have worked two years in a row. And no reason Giannis shouldn't be getting 25 assists per game when teams overload on him.


The Bucks are not winning a championship without Giannis. They just aren't. Ownership has to go all in next season and show him they're serious about keeping him here. Somehow I doubt that will happen. You have two Wall Street pennypinchers as owners that forced the taxpayers to build Fiserv. There are a million criticisms to be levied at the Bucks for all of the mistakes made since Giannis was picked (we will get there in due time), but the crux of the matter is this: in the summer that mattered for winning, ownership cheaped out.

"You're not going to have him when you want him and you're going to run out of games. He can't pitch 90 games. It's just not going to work. If anyone thinks it's going to work, show me how."- Craig Counsell on Josh Hader.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 3:21 PM Post
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^That's just a tad disingenuous. Fiserv was quite a generous deal for taxpayers, relatively speaking, but that's another animal. Half the cost of a new arena is a lot better deal than most cities get. The owners did pony up $100 million. That that is less common than it should be is another issue, but this idea that Bucks ownership hasn't put any skin in the game is just false. They paid Middleton $178 million to keep Giannis happy.

I get that we're all upset about what's transpired, but that post is incredibly off the mark. They made mistakes, and misjudged some things, but the idea they cheaped out and didn't try is nonsense.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 6:43 PM Post
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The Weatherman
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Getting the taxpayers to cover a portion of an arena comes down to the fact that there are more Milwaukee-sized cities than NBA teams and public financing for an arena is legal.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 8:42 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I don't think Bud will be fired unless they know explicitly that Giannis does not want him here. Giannis doesn't seem like one to blame a coach, the guy was trying to get Kidd re-hired the day he was fired. Personally? I'd rather have Donovan, but I think Bud is safe for 1 year. I know this is 99% unrelated to his future here, but Bud did list his house for sale a few months ago.



Maybe I shouldn't have said irked with Bud, but more with the situation.

My biggest issue with Bud is how they're all standing around watching the guy with the ball, but I think that stood out SOO much in the Miami series because Miami moves the ball exceptionally well. But watching the other teams and trying to keep a closer eye to see how much their guys move without the ball, it's not exactly like Reggie Miller and the Pacers or Ray Allen, JJ Reddick hell, Korver used to be REALLY good at moving without the ball, coming off a screen and taking a 3. I guess mostly great shooters. I'm not expecting Golden State like ball movement, but SOMETHING other than giving the ball to the best guy currently on the court(or the PG) and they dribble until they get in trouble and hopefully their errant pass finds a teammate.

Still...there has to be an NBA coach who can explain to their team if a guy is trapped, it MIGHT be a good idea for someone to come to him.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 8:56 PM Post
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GAME05 said:
I'm all for the Bucks saying "He Giannis, we'd be totally fine with firing Bud if you sign an extension. Just don't ask for Kidd back." Maybe that would help keep him here.



I actually kinda liked Kidd's defensive concept when he came here. Back when we had a 20 year old Thon, 23 year old Giannis, Middleton was a little more active. Just a longer team than we have now. But shockingly, trying to replicate the Nolan Richardson style of defense at the NBA level only worked for a season.


Firing Bud would be a really gutsy move and they'd have to be pretty damn certain they could get a better coach, an established coach. I doubt they'll do it, but I'm really fascinated to see what they're able to pull off this off-season. If they could somehow manage to keep DD and make a significant trade, that'd be a really encouraging off-season. As long as the player is JJ Reddick or better.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 09, 2020, 9:01 PM Post
Posts: 5268
OldSchoolSnapper said:
^That's just a tad disingenuous. Fiserv was quite a generous deal for taxpayers, relatively speaking, but that's another animal. Half the cost of a new arena is a lot better deal than most cities get. The owners did pony up $100 million. That that is less common than it should be is another issue, but this idea that Bucks ownership hasn't put any skin in the game is just false. They paid Middleton $178 million to keep Giannis happy.

I get that we're all upset about what's transpired, but that post is incredibly off the mark. They made mistakes, and misjudged some things, but the idea they cheaped out and didn't try is nonsense.



It's more than a tad disengenious. The NBA was talking about buying the team and moving them if they didn't build a new stadium. Kohl and the new Owners paid at least half the cost. The tax payers were on the hook for at MOST 250 million. Which was a great deal. If the Bucks leave, that's a lot of tax revenue and that would have been felt in a place like Milwaukee with limited entertainment options.

I don't think it's really fair at all to say they're penny pinchers. They knew they'd be well into the luxury tax if/when Giannis signed and still overpaid Middleton by about 50 million to, as you said, keep Giannis happy.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 10, 2020, 8:16 AM Post
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The luxury tax also has substantial additional penalties if you go over two years in a row. So Horst could very well have been timing it to spend more this coming offseason to convince Giannis to stay.


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Offline  Re: Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread
Posted: September 10, 2020, 8:42 AM Post
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If the Bucks leave, that's a lot of tax revenue and that would have been felt in a place like Milwaukee with limited entertainment options.

I graduated from MSOE back in the mid-90s during the dark (pun intended) days of the Bradley Center. The whole area around there was very industrial (i.e. warehouses, seedy bars, etc..). Water street was where more of the night life was. You generally went to a game and then left the area immediately after.

I was just back there a week and a half ago to visit the old campus and I was surprised by the changes. The area around the Fizer Forum is much improved. Even without the Bucks playing there and still in COVID impacts, there were still quite a bit of "life" around the area. The renovations also pair well with the improvements to the river walk (though still not approaching San Antonio's river walk, which is incredible). There were a lot more people on the river too (maybe a better COVID social distancing option?) than I remember. Ironically, Water street looked pretty dead in comparison. Not sure if that was due to the improvements around FF, COVID impacts, or because we were there pre-college startup.

On the side, I was also impressed by the huge improvements to the MSOE campus. There were a lot of new buildings and improvements made. I'm jealous that we didn't have them back in the 90s. So in general, the entire downtown area has made big improvements. Except Mader's remains unchanged. [smile]


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