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Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM

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Online  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 10:37 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
Good thing we had to sit around and wait 5 minutes for a review that didn't show anything. Just love instant replay and the suspense it has brought to the game. Football was such a boring sport before we reviewed every important play.


Either you have to live with that reality or live with the reality that somewhere along the line, an egregiously bad fumble call (Jerry Rice, 1998) or other egregiously bad reviewable play is going to decide an important game.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 10:47 AM Post
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Just got back from Green Bay (stayed last night unexpectedly to avoid a terrible drive because of the snow, drove into a terrible drive this morning because of the snow, at least it was in daylight and not with a bunch of drivers at .079999999999 BAC....), so a few thoughts from Lambeau:

1) I'll agree with both sides of the 'replay ruined the moment' argument. Was there a huge letdown that the celebration was cut short by replay at the stadium? Yep. Am I glad they have something in place to try and get a call like that right? Yep. Am I certain that no matter which way that was called, it would have stood up on replay? Yep.

2)Surprised to see criticism of the Jones/Williams workload, especially considering that both ran very well yesterday. Workload management seems to be the staff's forte, as I don't think it's a COMPLETE coincidence that a new staff with new philosophies have resulted in a much healthier team. Jones is an ultra-talented, often dynamic, undersized running back. Kudos to the staff for finding a way to split the load in a way that has kept him healthy, productive, and contributing, which was a problem in the past.

3)I really, really hope that much of the Packer fanbase was able to watch the Saints' (home!) loss to a bad Falcons team prior to the Packer kickoff yesterday, and can recognize that despite what we heard last week, sometimes good teams play poorly and lose to terrible teams. Maybe Saints fans are contemplating whether they're a legitimate contender this morning. Maybe they're looking at their schedule and wondering whether they're a 13-3 team or a 10-6 team. Or maybe they realize that sometimes a loss is just a loss. It's not the NCAA where one loss means a ton. Sometimes NFL teams, even the really good ones, have a crappy day and a team with a good QB leads the opponent to a win by three scores. Then you move on and go back to playing out the rest of your schedule, and hopefully that loss proves an exception, not a rule.

4)It was pretty cold at the game. Not Ice Bowl or 2007 NFC Championship cold, but New Year's Eve vs. the Vikings-type cold. And it's way too early for that crap, even if football in the snow was surreal.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 10:51 AM Post
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adambr2 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Good thing we had to sit around and wait 5 minutes for a review that didn't show anything. Just love instant replay and the suspense it has brought to the game. Football was such a boring sport before we reviewed every important play.


Either you have to live with that reality or live with the reality that somewhere along the line, an egregiously bad fumble call (Jerry Rice, 1998) or other egregiously bad reviewable play is going to decide an important game.


Those are still happening though. Even if they weren't, I can in fact live with them when the trade off is awful TV. I realize I'm in the minority there but getting sports calls right is not so important to me that I demand it in exchange for destroying the game itself.

I mean a lot of studies have been done about the connection people feel to sports and what brings them back, and that endorphin rush a fan experiences in a moment like that. Even though your team usually disappoints you, you always come back for that feeling. I can honestly say that I never got that rush yesterday. As soon as he hit the ground, my conditioning immediately went to "And now we have to look at this." 15 years ago I am storming through the house jumping up and down. I think that sucks.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 1:31 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
adambr2 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Good thing we had to sit around and wait 5 minutes for a review that didn't show anything. Just love instant replay and the suspense it has brought to the game. Football was such a boring sport before we reviewed every important play.


Either you have to live with that reality or live with the reality that somewhere along the line, an egregiously bad fumble call (Jerry Rice, 1998) or other egregiously bad reviewable play is going to decide an important game.


Those are still happening though. Even if they weren't, I can in fact live with them when the trade off is awful TV. I realize I'm in the minority there but getting sports calls right is not so important to me that I demand it in exchange for destroying the game itself.

I mean a lot of studies have been done about the connection people feel to sports and what brings them back, and that endorphin rush a fan experiences in a moment like that. Even though your team usually disappoints you, you always come back for that feeling. I can honestly say that I never got that rush yesterday. As soon as he hit the ground, my conditioning immediately went to "And now we have to look at this." 15 years ago I am storming through the house jumping up and down. I think that sucks.


It took about 2:10 for the review to be complete - from when the whistle blew for him being down to the ref announcing the call stood - not 5 minutes. There are definitely times where it takes way too long and I wouldn’t be against some changes to replay (90 seconds max for reviews, can’t tell in that time - call stands; more transparency for the fans - put what the ref is seeing on TV and in stadium) but I’d argue yesterday’s was pretty mundane.

I’m sorry you don’t get excited anymore because of replay, but the players and fans seemed pretty excited as the play happened and then get to re-live it again somewhat when the play stood - I’d rather have that slight delay in order to get the chance to correct it if needed. It isn’t foolproof but I have a hard time believing you really would be okay with losing a game on what used to be a reviewable call.

And are you really sure it is because of replay you don’t go running crazy around the house after winning a game in early November at the last second? Or is more of it because you are 15 years older with different priorities and understanding of the magnitude of sports? I’ve got little kids now and can’t always watch the games live or as loudly as I used to years ago but you better believe when it is a BIG game I’ll go a little crazy when the play ends and probably do it again when it was official we won the game. To each their own on that though.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 1:43 PM Post
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JohnBriggs12 said:
With McCaffrey, there's no more dangerous team from the 2 yard line then Carolina. Earlier he basically walked in from the 5 yard line. Packers stopped him though that's disputable on the last play that just as easily could have been called a touchdown and the Packers were extremely lucky the Panthers didn't run him on earlier downs.


Just like Carolina was successful on their 2 point conversion? Or when we stopped them on the 3rd & 1 from near the goal line? And 4th & 1 play before the offsides on Smith? Or how about when we stopped them on 1st down from the 2? Or when we stopped them on the last play?

You are right that McCaffery is dangerous, but you omit the times we stopped Carolina in short yardage earlier to point out the one time he did score from close. We were able to stop him and DID stop him when it mattered most on the last play.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 1:50 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
Good thing we had to sit around and wait 5 minutes for a review that didn't show anything. Just love instant replay and the suspense it has brought to the game. Football was such a boring sport before we reviewed every important play.


Well the Panthers WR stood perfectly in way of the camera that would have given the best look. If he wasn't at that exact spot, something would have been shown. Someone already called out the 5min. I didn't feel the review to end a game took long at all, in fact quicker than I'd expect, which maybe clearly showed that the ball never reached the TD line. Gotta figure it takes 25-30secs alone for the ref to jog over to the review camera and back to the portion of the field where he announces the decision. Which Baseball, come on with the time it takes for NY to view the replay and return the decision.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 2:04 PM Post
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You're making it sound like I'm the only person in the universe who's brought up how badly replay has hampered televised sports, or how bad the NFL's TV product has become. I'm not. Far from it. The NFL is the absolute worst at this. Usually in the NBA you don't even know it's being reviewed.

I think 130 second delay in announcing touchdown is insane. The only reason we think that's normal now is that we've been conditioned. No, it has nothing to do with my priorities or life cycle. The televised product is hands down worse, and replay is a huge reason why.

I absolutely would be OK with losing games on bad calls, because that is still happening at least more than it should be if we're able to replay the calls to "get them right." We're still getting them wrong and still randomly enforcing which things we actually call on the replays. So badly to the point the Packers didn't even challenge that abhorrent OPI because they knew it wouldn't get changed. NFL replay is an agonizing molasses mess, I'm honestly dumbfounded by how many people are OK with it. I guess everyone just loves football too much to care.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 2:17 PM Post
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I think you are confusing people being ok with replay and people being ok with waiting two minutes to know the outcome of the game.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 2:21 PM Post
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I remember when we knew the outcome at 0:00 and we all found ways to live with it. I think the point is that there is a whole lot of waiting "just two minutes" over the course of an NFL game and sometimes for stupid and obvious stuff. I.e. 3-4 minute commercial breaks to make sure someone didn't step out of bounds at the 1 on first and goal in the 2nd quarter. I hate all of it. Scrap it all and go back to human error.

We all lived for decades with receptions bouncing off the turf and such. This endless obsession with getting it right like we are solving a murder is ruining sports.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 3:02 PM Post
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I have always been in favor of scrapping replay entirely but I am so far in the minority it isn't worth complaining about it anymore. It's here to stay and make us miserable.


Thinking about that last GB drive again today, someone else brought up the Eagle playoff game and that was exactly what I thought yesterday. I guess they didn't trust Crosby from there and even if they get the first the game isn't over as Car had all their TO's but it is a lot closer to over. When the Panther got the ball out to their own 40 and first down I looked at the clock and it was around 1:40 and I said "yep just like Eagle game, we got nothing for punting". In my mind the defense has to stop them for 4 downs anyway, the payoff of converting fourth and 3 far outweighs the extra 30 yards you make them march with that much time left. Pinning them back doesn't matter so much since they are not going to go conservative. I guess in the end they did just run out of time but I still feel like that was a bad decision, and like the Sherman call I didn't even consider it an option until they did it.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 3:06 PM Post
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I think you can much more easily make the argument against it in the case of Sherman who I believe was clinging to a 3-point lead. I would never punt in that spot with a 3-point lead, don't even think I would punt with a 7-point lead. But it's that safety of the 8 points, knowing that even IF they score they still have to get in again, that makes me fine with the punt.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 3:09 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I remember when we knew the outcome at 0:00 and we all found ways to live with it. I think the point is that there is a whole lot of waiting "just two minutes" over the course of an NFL game and sometimes for stupid and obvious stuff. I.e. 3-4 minute commercial breaks to make sure someone didn't step out of bounds at the 1 on first and goal in the 2nd quarter. I hate all of it. Scrap it all and go back to human error.

We all lived for decades with receptions bouncing off the turf and such. This endless obsession with getting it right like we are solving a murder is ruining sports.

With all due respect I think we know your position by now. I think you are in a vast and sweeping minority of fans on this subject, not to mention actual NFL owners/coaches/players. Frankly there is zero possibility that replay will be cancelled in the NFL or any other sport where it's been instituted. Because it makes way too much sense.

I sympathize with your argument, it does have a portion of merit, but in the end I would vote for replay, with all its imperfections, 100 times out of 100.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 3:26 PM Post
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I've said many times I'm in the minority, but calling it vast and sweeping isn't right. A quick Googling brings up a lot of articles regarding the same endorphin type point, the same arguments about killing TV, etc. I'm not talking one or two either, there are hundreds. I did not come up with this stuff, a lot of people hate it. Including the ex-player that called the game yesterday and has been pretty vocal about hating replay.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 3:28 PM Post
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Well, if Troy Aikman is against replay, that pretty much cements my desire to have it. [wink]


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 3:28 PM Post
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homer said:
I think you are confusing people being ok with replay and people being ok with waiting two minutes to know the outcome of the game.


Exactly. I think many would like changes made to replay, but I’m okay with waiting to make sure there is a chance they can correct a fixable mistake.

OldSchoolSnapper said:
I remember when we knew the outcome at 0:00 and we all found ways to live with it. I think the point is that there is a whole lot of waiting "just two minutes" over the course of an NFL game and sometimes for stupid and obvious stuff. I.e. 3-4 minute commercial breaks to make sure someone didn't step out of bounds at the 1 on first and goal in the 2nd quarter. I hate all of it. Scrap it all and go back to human error.


We know the outcome of 99.9% of non-OT games at 0:00... how often does replay come up at the end of games causing a small delay to know the outcome?

Does anybody who’s against replay have any data to show how much time replay actually adds to a game? I feel like there aren’t normally all of these replays to “make sure someone didn’t step out of bounds at the 1 on first and goal in the 2nd quarter.” that are taking up so much time but I could be wrong.

I also don’t really believe you’d be okay with such a game changing event - like the refs getting what is now a reviewable play wrong - that it actually costs a team a game, but you take issues with people not agreeing with you on a roughing the passer call in the 2nd quarter being game changing to the point you call a longtime poster a troll.

OldHeidelberg said:
I have always been in favor of scrapping replay entirely but I am so far in the minority it isn't worth complaining about it anymore. It's here to stay and make us miserable.


I’d be way more miserable, and think most fans would agree, with not having a chance to correct a fixable mistake. The Jerry Rice “fumble” still bothers me and that was like 20 years ago.


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Online  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 3:28 PM Post
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The part of replay I would like to see go away is reviewable pass interference. It's become a joke and I hope they can't get rid of it quickly enough. Things that are subjective, you're going to just have to define as well as possible and learn to live with.

Things that are black and white are what replay should be used for and the answer to me should be not eliminating replay but making it faster and more efficient. For example, is it really necessary to have the lead official go review the play when we can simply have a replay official who is already in the process of reviewing any reviewable elements of a play as soon as it is over and can relay a decision down within 60 seconds or so to keep the game moving?

Even better, do we have the technology yet to be able to conclusively indicate when the ball breaks the plane of a goal line, rendering replays like yesterday unnecessary?


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 3:34 PM Post
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Reviewable pass interference is going away, they clearly just tossed it in to make it seem like they are doing something about the officials and will eventually wipe it off the books when the coaches complain that it's pointless.

Also, this isn't a matter of replay adding to the ToG. It's a matter of replay taking a hatchet to the suspense of the game, which I cannot even grasp being a debatable point. It absolutely sucks. On ANY remotely borderline play the euphoria has been replaced by waiting to see something in UHD at 1/10 speed to make sure you can still be happy about it. And then sometimes they still tell you that you're wrong anyway (even when it's highly debatable) and we have to do it over. Their interpretations lack any consistency so we STILL end up arguing about 1/4 of the calls even after the 15 verification looks.

We had the tech to put a laser in the ball 15 years ago and end the goal line nonsense.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 3:38 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I think you can much more easily make the argument against it in the case of Sherman who I believe was clinging to a 3-point lead. I would never punt in that spot with a 3-point lead, don't even think I would punt with a 7-point lead. But it's that safety of the 8 points, knowing that even IF they score they still have to get in again, that makes me fine with the punt.


I guess it's hard to compare, Sherman's Eagle game decision has to be the worst coaching call I can remember. Yesterday was a pretty typical 4 minute offense NFL decision, those late game drives when up and only needing to run down the clock are really tough to play call. But Rodgers is one of the best ever in those situations IMO, give him 4th and 3 when holding the ball and chucking it down field isn't an option and he is money in the bank.


Also, no more screens to Allison please, the guy has the slowest first step in the league. Why is he that guy in this offense?


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 3:40 PM Post
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I mean, even Sherman's decision wasn't that bad. I don't have the details in front of me but did he punt on 4th and 1 in the playoff game? I think it was something like 17-14 at the time so he put the game in his defense's hands, and they then forced 4th and 26. It worked up to that moment and the door should've been slammed.

There are variables that made it worse but I could be mixing seasons. I think they had not been stopped on 4th and 1 all year and Ahman Green had like 1900 yards that year.


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Offline  Re: Game 10: Panthers @ Packers - Sunday, November 10th, 3:25PM
Posted: November 11, 2019, 3:43 PM Post
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adambr2 said:
The part of replay I would like to see go away is reviewable pass interference. It's become a joke and I hope they can't get rid of it quickly enough. Things that are subjective, you're going to just have to define as well as possible and learn to live with.


Yep. Anything subjective should not be reviewable. I'd limit it to just scoring plays or plays inside two min warning but that's just me.

Even better, do we have the technology yet to be able to conclusively indicate when the ball breaks the plane of a goal line, rendering replays like yesterday unnecessary?


You'd think they could put some kind of sensor in the ground and in/on the ball.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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