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Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?

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Online  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#21

Posted: May 15, 2017, 8:55 PM Post
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Because the pitchers aren't that good. There's really nothing more to look into. Davies and Anderson have their moments but ultimately they're back of the rotation guys. I think we can stop waiting for Wily to break out or whatever because he is what he is and that's nothing special - walks guys and then grooves them down the middle. Nelson has the stuff to be above average but looks more like back of the rotation to middle on a good day. And Garza has been our ace so far, that says it all.


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#22

Posted: May 15, 2017, 10:25 PM Post
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The pitchers aren't that good.

The fielders aren't that good.

We make too many mental errors.

Mediocre fielding, mental errors, too many walks, means more pressure on the pitchers (more pitches, more baserunners, etc.).

It all combines to make a pretty bad stew.


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#23

Posted: May 16, 2017, 6:45 AM Post
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istanbultaye said:
Ennder said:
The one plus is we have induced a lot of double plays and have a good GB%.



I thought I read at some point in time that double plays are as much or more an indication that your team is allowing a lot of base runners than an indicator of good defense.

We have a good double play % as well which accounts for that.


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Offline  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#24

Posted: May 17, 2017, 3:28 PM Post
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Look at their career numbers.. this whole staff is 4/5's.. The only pitcher going passed 6 innings regularly is Garza surprisingly. That takes its toll on the bullpen, which is also filled with a bunch of journeymen (Hughes, Feliz, Jhan, Drake). CC has done a great job pulling the right strings so far... Did people really expect this pitching staff to be good or better than league average? Enjoy this run and hope Garza keeps dealing so we can get more than a bag of balls for him.


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#25

Posted: May 17, 2017, 3:35 PM Post
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Location: Kenosha, WI
FVBrewerFan said:
MrTPlush said:
Honestly I feel like the catchers are a bit to blame sometimes. They are the ones calling the game and a lot of times calling what to throw and where. Sometimes you are just left scratching your head why we are having 0-2 pitches over the plate among many other things. Real headscatchers sometimes.


But how true is that anymore? How much of the game is called from the bench? Either way, I don't anyone is calling for meatballs over the plate on 0-2 pitches.


Depends on the team and pitcher. A lot of coaches like pulling up various statistics on what to pitch. However they are certainly being intentionally aggressive on 0-2 counts...whoever is calling the pitches.


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Online  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#26

Posted: May 17, 2017, 4:39 PM Post
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In a grander organizational sense--Why has it been bad for 30 years? Is it all just dumb luck that we can't develop pitching?


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#27

Posted: May 17, 2017, 5:50 PM Post
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Oxy said:
In a grander organizational sense--Why has it been bad for 30 years? Is it all just dumb luck that we can't develop pitching?

Luck certainly plays a part. But generally, it's bad drafting.

Add in tight budgets (we never went much beyond recommended player slotting in the draft, we never spent much on scouting, we never invested in Latin America scouting), poor development of players (meaning when we had a good player, we didn't figure out how to get him to his full potential, or he got hurt from overuse, or something like that) - and then a degree of bad luck - and it was just a bad mix of things.

The drafting in the 90s was absolutely horrendous. Sal Bando took a guy projected by most teams to be a 2nd-3rd rounder with the 4th pick. Just nuts.


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#28

Posted: May 17, 2017, 8:46 PM Post
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Oxy said:
In a grander organizational sense--Why has it been bad for 30 years? Is it all just dumb luck that we can't develop pitching?

Jack Z was really bad at drafting pitching so that explains some of it. Some of it has to be an inability to develop though since we haven't even developed many bullpen arms. Even if we failed on starters more of them should have been viable in the bullpen.


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#29

Posted: May 17, 2017, 8:53 PM Post
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Jack Z also focused on hitters early, with great success. As much as I love the temptation of a pitcher in round 1, it really makes the most sense to load up on hitters. They can always be traded for pitching. Or with enough young hitters, you can always sign pitching


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Offline  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#30

Posted: May 17, 2017, 9:30 PM Post
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It's one of the worst Brewer bullpens ever assembled and it's being taxed because we don't have a starter who can pitch 6 decent innings.

The offense has really done it's part but I'm not sure the plan for developing a playoff caliber pitching staff.


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Offline  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#31

Posted: May 17, 2017, 9:33 PM Post
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A lot of pitching rich teams find arms on the international market, and the Brewers have been almost non-existant there throughout their history. The problem reached its low point when Melvin closed our Dominican Academy. We're still trying to re-establish our organization in Latin America.

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-Posted by the fan formerly known as X ellence. David Stearns has brought me back..


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Offline  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#32

Posted: May 17, 2017, 9:35 PM Post
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reillymcshane said:
Oxy said:
In a grander organizational sense--Why has it been bad for 30 years? Is it all just dumb luck that we can't develop pitching?

Luck certainly plays a part. But generally, it's bad drafting.

Add in tight budgets (we never went much beyond recommended player slotting in the draft, we never spent much on scouting, we never invested in Latin America scouting), poor development of players (meaning when we had a good player, we didn't figure out how to get him to his full potential, or he got hurt from overuse, or something like that) - and then a degree of bad luck - and it was just a bad mix of things.

The drafting in the 90s was absolutely horrendous. Sal Bando took a guy projected by most teams to be a 2nd-3rd rounder with the 4th pick. Just nuts.


Well he was a 3rd baseman who played at ASU so that's all that mattered. Even still he picked Sheets and we haven't come close to picking a guy like that since. Maybe Gallardo I guess. We simply don't draft or trade for young quality pitching.


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Online  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#33

Posted: May 17, 2017, 9:51 PM Post
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Boomer5 said:
It's one of the worst Brewer bullpens ever assembled and it's being taxed because we don't have a starter who can pitch 6 decent innings.

The offense has really done it's part but I'm not sure the plan for developing a playoff caliber pitching staff.


I've been hard on our bullpen as any but it isn't even the worst of this decade. Remember 2012?


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Offline  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#34

Posted: May 17, 2017, 9:58 PM Post
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Boomer5 said:
It's one of the worst Brewer bullpens ever assembled and it's being taxed because we don't have a starter who can pitch 6 decent innings.

The offense has really done it's part but I'm not sure the plan for developing a playoff caliber pitching staff.


One of the worst Brewers bullpens ever assembled? It's actually a pretty good bullpen, 10th in the majors in ERA.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"88.6% of all statistics are made up right there on the spot" Todd Snider

-Posted by the fan formerly known as X ellence. David Stearns has brought me back..


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Online  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#35

Posted: May 17, 2017, 10:06 PM Post
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Never Outhustled said:
A lot of pitching rich teams find arms on the international market, and the Brewers have been almost non-existant there throughout their history. The problem reached its low point when Melvin closed our Dominican Academy. We're still trying to re-establish our organization in Latin America.


I think it closed early 2000's and then was re-opened either the help of Salomon Torres around 2010.


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Offline  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#36

Posted: May 17, 2017, 10:36 PM Post
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To be fair, we've traded every bullpen guy that could breathe the last two years.

The assumption was most likely it wouldn't matter.
No one could have imagined a competent bullpen could have us at a possible 30-11 record to this point. Just a guess of course


Last edited by Sixto on May 18, 2017, 7:14 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#37

Posted: May 18, 2017, 6:05 AM Post
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Brewers now 13th in the majors in pitching. Not a bad pitching staff at all. The staff was 3rd in the majors after the break last year. I'd expect continued improvement.

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"88.6% of all statistics are made up right there on the spot" Todd Snider

-Posted by the fan formerly known as X ellence. David Stearns has brought me back..


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Online  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#38

Posted: May 18, 2017, 7:16 AM Post
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I keep waiting for the Garza bottom to drop out. So far so good....

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Online  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#39

Posted: May 18, 2017, 7:37 AM Post
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homer said:
I keep waiting for the Garza bottom to drop out. So far so good....



It's very possible (possible.... not probable) that if the Brewers are still in the thick of things in July *AND* Garza is still pitching well (that's only TWO *if's*) that Garza will have more value to the Brewers pitching out the rest of this season for the Crew than as a trade piece being flipped for a marginal prospect.


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Offline  Re: Brewers' Pitching- Why is it so bad?
#40

Posted: May 18, 2017, 8:20 AM Post
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To me it's more about flaws in developing pitchers compared to drafting poorly - coupled with unpredictability of pitching injuries derailing promising careers.

The Brewers had some talented arms never amount to anything at the MLB level due to injury (Rogers, Gold, etc), which many organizations do - it's not having any organizational depth of pitching talent that was being developed properly that has hamstrung the Brewers through most of their existence.

Not being able to pay top dollar for free agent starting pitching or relievers obviously hurts their ability to sustain longterm MLB pitching success - they also play in a hitter friendly park. The fact the one homegrown, drafted and developed "unicorn" starter had his best years during some of the Brewers' darkest (Sheets) before burning out makes Brewer pitching history seem that much darker. Gallardo was an effective #2-caliber starter that was developed, too. As an organization, they need to bring in ace-caliber pitching talent via the draft at least once every 3 years - that just hasn't happened enough.


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