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Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper

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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#81

Posted: July 13, 2017, 2:25 PM Post
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FVBrewerFan said:
Night putting. Just putting at night with the Owner's niece.


"I was born to love you, I was born to lick your face..."


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#82

Posted: July 13, 2017, 2:26 PM Post
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Humans Need Water said:
JohnBriggs12 said:
I would have kept Cooper and moved Aguilar this winter. Aguilar probably gets more of a return. I really love Aguilar's bat too, but Cooper has an edge athletically and could be used in the OF and has option years that come in handy. Boston felt like they had to move Shaw too and they got burned with a reliever in return.

This is nothing like Boston's situation. Shaw wasn't blocked; he was the starter. They had Panda still so dealt him. Cooper is the guy who's blocked. There are two guys ahead of him with 3yrs and 5yrs control - both are very productive with much more power. I like Cooper but I don't understand how anyone doesn't like this deal. We dealt from depth for a lefty pen arm with 5yrs control (double digit K9 with good BB9, whip rates) who helps our pen right now and in the future. And Cooper isn't sniffing the OF. Starting in Sept we're going to have 4 legit defensive OF on the roster moving forward. Perez will most likely see a big cut in OF play starting next year.

Plus, it remains to be seen how Cooper does in the majors. His AAA numbers are so heavily inflated by the video game ones in Colorado Springs.

.442BA/.503OBP/.829SLG/1.333OPS

Maybe he ends up an Overbay type, but that ballpark and the PCL in general is a wet dream for hitters. I wish him luck though given he's in the AL.


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#83

Posted: July 13, 2017, 2:26 PM Post
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Garrett Cooper is 26. He's hitting well at AAA. He's hitting extremely well at the launching pad where he's played half his games. He has never cracked double figures in home runs in four prior minor league seasons; this year he has 17 -- at age 26, playing his home games in a bandbox. His professional games played at positions other than 1b: 2013 - 0; 2014 - 5 (3b); 2015 - 4 (rf); 2016 - 39 (of corners); 2017 - 0.

Could he replace Aguilar's power production? There's no real evidence to suggest it. Could he replace Aguilar's overall production? Stranger things have happened, but Aguilar's MLB OPS this year is higher than Cooper's road OPS in AAA, so I kind of doubt it. Cooper isn't young, he looks like he won't spend much time away from 1b, and his power looks very dubious.

This is a classic instance of selling high. I hate trading legit starting position players for relief pitchers, but I'm thrilled we got this much for Cooper. I hope he rakes and proves me wrong.


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#84

Posted: July 13, 2017, 2:37 PM Post
Posts: 141
It's amazing how much stock is put into a stat line with zero context. If this exact trade happened a year ago would anyone have these same sentiments toward Cooper?


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#85

Posted: July 13, 2017, 2:44 PM Post
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Location: Milwaukee
82brewcrew82 said:
It's amazing how much stock is put into a stat line with zero context. If this exact trade happened a year ago would anyone have these same sentiments toward Cooper?

No. I don't doubt Cooper has slightly improved as a hitter. He's always been a really solid bat but he doesn't have over the wall pop. He's a line driver hitter. CS is taking a percentage of those doubles and turning them into HR. He's not going to hit for 20HR power. Thames and Aguilar have 30HR power though


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#86

Posted: July 13, 2017, 2:50 PM Post
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Nobody knows if Cooper will hit 20 HRs. Did anyone think Scooter Gennett would hit 20? It's not uncommon for players to find more power later in their careers.


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#87

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:00 PM Post
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82brewcrew82 said:
It's amazing how much stock is put into a stat line with zero context. If this exact trade happened a year ago would anyone have these same sentiments toward Cooper?


Cooper was a 4 year college player who didn't start his pro career until age 22. He was a 6th round pick which is high for 4 year college players so he was pretty well regarded and he's advanced every year. Some big guys take a while to learn how to turn line drives into HR. Based on the evidence this year, I think Cooper has learned. For a big guy, he doesn't strike out much at all either so I'd say he's a pretty accomplished hitter.


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#88

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:02 PM Post
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I think the Brewers sort of know what they have in Aguilar and given he's about the same age as Cooper they were willing to bet on the performance they know rather than what Cooper may or may not do going forward.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#89

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:02 PM Post
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Yankee Stadium isn't Colorado Springs but it is a hitter's paradise. If Cooper has oppo doubles power he could easily hit 20 HR's hitting line drives into Yankee Stadium's right field jet stream

I still like the trade though. Controllable pitching is extremely valuable, and our bullpen is our biggest weakness

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#90

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:05 PM Post
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Cooper has discussed how he has changed his approach at the plate this year to elevate the ball more, resulting in more home runs.

CS is also not the launching pad that people think it is. It's more of an AVG booster with more singles/doubles instead of outs/singles than it is a turn doubles into homers park.

There are plenty of parks in the PCL that ARE launching pads, but Cooper's homers last I checked were pretty split between home and road, so there's reason to believe that his power boost this year is real and not just a PCL mirage.

There's reason to expect his numbers to go down in the majors for any number of reasons (major jump in difficulty, not in PCL anymore are among them), but I wouldn't completely rule out his video game-like numbers just because he played in Colorado Springs. It's not like EVERY player that plays there is all of a sudden bad just because they hit well in the PCL.

All that said, I still like this trade. Not every guy in our system is going to make it onto a 25-man team, and Cooper's chances were pretty slim to stick on the big league roster. He's in the AL now, so if he does vastly outproduce Thames/Aguilar (which seems unlikely, he'd have to hit his CS numbers in order to greatly outproduce them this year), at least it won't be against us, but we definitely need a controllable lefty in the bullpen with a high strikeout rate more than we need a 3rd first baseman to back up two that are pretty good already.


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#91

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:05 PM Post
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Those watching Cooper know that he has been solid for a while now and was slowly getting better at each level. His AAA numbers are gaudy, of course, but he has produced better than expected from a 6th round pick. Overbay is a good comp, which as we know was a pretty good 1B for a while. A couple years ago, we would've been thrilled to try him at 1B. But he is expendable now.

Webb looks like he might be an ok LOOGY. Against the rest of the league, he has a 1.80 ERA this year. [wink]


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#92

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:34 PM Post
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You can chop up the numbers however you like but I don't how you look at his splits and conclude anything other than that he has greatly benefited from playing half his games in CS. I don't care how old he was when he was drafted. He is going to be 27 going into next season. Honestly, I don't think his career arch is all that different than a Jason Rogers. Go look at Overbay's minor league numbers, its just not even close.


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#93

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:38 PM Post
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FVBrewerFan said:
Nobody knows if Cooper will hit 20 HRs. Did anyone think Scooter Gennett would hit 20? It's not uncommon for players to find more power later in their careers.


Yeah, just look at Brady Anderson....oh, never mind, nothing to see here. [rolling eyes]


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#94

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:42 PM Post
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Just my personal opinion but I don't believe Cooper was traded because he was blocked. He has options left and neither Thames nor Aguilar are so established that it's a slam dunk they are going to be productive beyond the years in which they could exercise Copper's options. I'm not sure they planned on using a 40 man spot on him next year and decided to get something for him that they would be willing to use a 40 man roster spot on.

There needs to be a King Thames version of the bible.


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#95

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:42 PM Post
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FVBrewerFan said:
Nobody knows if Cooper will hit 20 HRs. Did anyone think Scooter Gennett would hit 20? It's not uncommon for players to find more power later in their careers.

Scooter hasn't hit 20HR in a season in his career. He should this year but he also might not. He's also hit 27% of his HR this year in one game. He also moved to a park that's 20' shorter down the lines. Moving to a smaller park and having a game for the ages doesn't mean you're now a "20HR hitter". Cooper isn't a 20HR hitter and there's plenty of "evidence" to suggest it. CS/PCL adds like 5% in distance - this is used to show that balls travel farther in that environment. Prior to AAA, Cooper's HR/FB ratio was a consistent 5.5% area. Last year in his short AAA stint it spiked to 14% and this year it's 20%. What does that data suggest?

I wish people would ease up on the "nobody knows what xyz player is going to do....". Clearly If people did they'd never make a bad trade in their life. If people did they'd put their life savings on them to hit their exact numbers for that season at the beginning of the year making millions hand over fist. But there's evidence, data, etc that clearly shows patterns allowing for realistic expectations. Saying "nobody knows" is discrediting all evidence because that can literally be said about anything and everything in life.


Last edited by Humans Need Water on July 13, 2017, 3:47 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#96

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:45 PM Post
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Does Gatewood move to AAA now?


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#97

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:48 PM Post
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"Bullpen guys are a dime a dozen."


I think this season our team has made it abundantly clear that a bullpen guy worth a dime is usually worth a dime.

Hard not to like selling some depth to build a little in another area. I'd like to move an OF or two as well for more pitching.


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#98

Posted: July 13, 2017, 3:51 PM Post
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82brewcrew82 said:
You can chop up the numbers however you like but I don't how you look at his splits and conclude anything other than that he has greatly benefited from playing half his games in CS. I don't care how old he was when he was drafted. He is going to be 27 going into next season. Honestly, I don't think his career arch is all that different than a Jason Rogers. Go look at Overbay's minor league numbers, its just not even close.


I never said their MiLB numbers were comparable. And I probably should've said Coopers ceiling was Overbay rather than a direct comp. But both have been good contact, high OBP, doubles hitters. Poor athleticism limits them to 1B, but decent glove. They even look similar.

Rogers is a decent comp for numbers sake, but not much else. It's amazing how much stock is put into a stat line with zero context.


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
#99

Posted: July 13, 2017, 4:14 PM Post
Posts: 141
CheezWizHed said:
82brewcrew82 said:
You can chop up the numbers however you like but I don't how you look at his splits and conclude anything other than that he has greatly benefited from playing half his games in CS. I don't care how old he was when he was drafted. He is going to be 27 going into next season. Honestly, I don't think his career arch is all that different than a Jason Rogers. Go look at Overbay's minor league numbers, its just not even close.


I never said their MiLB numbers were comparable. And I probably should've said Coopers ceiling was Overbay rather than a direct comp. But both have been good contact, high OBP, doubles hitters. Poor athleticism limits them to 1B, but decent glove. They even look similar.

Rogers is a decent comp for numbers sake, but not much else. It's amazing how much stock is put into a stat line with zero context.


I'll stay away from the personal attacks and snark except to say that my whole post was about context. If Rogers is a good comp for numbers sake, and we are specifically talking about numbers, how is that irrelevant? In either case Overbay was a significantly better hitter than Cooper at every single level without the benefit of CS. To say that Overbay is the ceiling for Cooper is giving Cooper more credit than he has earned.


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Offline  Re: Brewers Acquire LHP Tyler Webb for Garrett Cooper
Posted: July 13, 2017, 4:36 PM Post
Posts: 147
Location: Milwaukee
82brewcrew82 said:
CheezWizHed said:
82brewcrew82 said:
You can chop up the numbers however you like but I don't how you look at his splits and conclude anything other than that he has greatly benefited from playing half his games in CS. I don't care how old he was when he was drafted. He is going to be 27 going into next season. Honestly, I don't think his career arch is all that different than a Jason Rogers. Go look at Overbay's minor league numbers, its just not even close.


I never said their MiLB numbers were comparable. And I probably should've said Coopers ceiling was Overbay rather than a direct comp. But both have been good contact, high OBP, doubles hitters. Poor athleticism limits them to 1B, but decent glove. They even look similar.

Rogers is a decent comp for numbers sake, but not much else. It's amazing how much stock is put into a stat line with zero context.


I'll stay away from the personal attacks and snark except to say that my whole post was about context. If Rogers is a good comp for numbers sake, and we are specifically talking about numbers, how is that irrelevant? In either case Overbay was a significantly better hitter than Cooper at every single level without the benefit of CS. To say that Overbay is the ceiling for Cooper is giving Cooper more credit than he has earned.

I'll let it be known if people want to personally attack me feel free. I could case less.

This is the first time I've looked at Overbay's minor league numbers. Yikes. Killed it. I also think Cooper is better than Rogers for sure and can have a decent little MLB career. Glad he's getting a shot somewhere


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