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Babying Hader

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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#21

Posted: July 17, 2017, 1:43 PM Post
Posts: 5706
lcbj68c said:
FVBrewerFan said:
Disagree 100%. Hader's role is to go multiple innings when necessary, not the "7th inning guy."


Bullpen roles are silly. If Hader is the best matchup for a hitter or a group of hitters, he should pitch against that hitter of group of hitters. Whether its in the 5th inning with 1 out or the 13th inning with two outs. Roles are why bullpens fail because managers fall in love with preconceived notions of situations rather than the facts of what is happening in the moment.


I agree in general with that. But Hader's case is unique, because he was stretched out as a starter, and used to pitching every 5th day. Now ask him to rather suddenly pitch every day or every other day, and that could be an arm problem in the making.

That's why they may be working him in as a long reliever, and then later this season they have the option of putting him back into the rotation or using him more in late inning situations. I have no idea if this is why they're using him this way, but it makes more sense that "babying" him, since they haven't babied any other rookie.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#22

Posted: July 17, 2017, 2:23 PM Post
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Isn't the more important question; where are the innings going to come from? If you look at the players' usage last year compared with this year it looks like Milwaukee is going to have to ride some of these arms pretty hard, or get some fresh arms in the bullpen:

IP in 2016 IP in 2017
Barnes 51.2 41.2
Knebel 49.2 44.1
Drake 74.1 34.1
Hughes 59.1 37.1
Torres 82.1 48.1

Hader pitched over 120 innings last year and would seem to have plenty of room to go before reaching that sort of limit. Outside of that, short starts by the rotation will seemingly lead to Milwaukee leaning on Torres, Scahill, etc. more and more.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#23

Posted: July 17, 2017, 2:33 PM Post
Posts: 5706
Yea, getting into uncharted territory with Knebel and Barnes, but as long as they're in the race I think they ride it out with them. As for Hader, yea the issue isn't number of innings- it's how they're used. When a starter's arm is used to pitching every 5 days, probably not wise to suddenly have that arm pitch 4 times a week. Especially if it's a young arm.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#24

Posted: July 17, 2017, 6:51 PM Post
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I don't know that it is "babying"; there could be other things going on. I think there were two reasons for bringing him up: 1) the Brewers needed an effective lefty in the pen, and B) Colorado Springs was not doing Hader any favors in terms of development. The best thing was to have him in Milwaukee, even if it was in the bullpen.

Where I'm going with this is that Hader might be getting extra work on the side with major league coaches to try to refine his mechanics and improve his control. He might be throwing more "pitches" than the box scores indicate, thus he might not be available as much.

Plus, as others say, he was used to throwing every five days and now it's erratic. Still need to be careful with him, which was likely one reason behind acquiring Webb.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#25

Posted: July 17, 2017, 7:56 PM Post
Posts: 932
Was it the plan all along this year to have Hader come out of the pen midstream, or did this Change when the Brewers were "in it" come June? Was this ever asked to CC? I like the wrinkle he adds to the pen, but I can see him being a key to the rotation this year too.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#26

Posted: July 17, 2017, 10:51 PM Post
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I think the Brewers decided that rather than have Hader struggle in Colorado Springs, they'd rather have him learn to harness his tools and the attack hitters from the big league bullpen for the time being


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#27

Posted: July 18, 2017, 6:27 AM Post
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I'm guessing the fact he is walking almost 20% of the guys he is facing has them looking for good spots to use him. I doubt Counsell trusts him at all. Like I would have never put him in the other night with the bases loaded, that is a disaster waiting to happen.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#28

Posted: July 18, 2017, 6:35 AM Post
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Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#29

Posted: July 18, 2017, 6:47 AM Post
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Brew4U said:
Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.



Walking over 7 guys per 9 innings is hard to overstate. That's a lot of walks. Bringing a guy with those kind of control issues into a bases loaded situation is a really bad idea.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#30

Posted: July 18, 2017, 7:11 AM Post
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Brew4U said:
Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.



He will not be a viable major league pitcher without it changing. Don't be fooled by the ERA which is meaningless over this sample, Hader has not pitched well at all. I trust every RP in the pen over him except for Scahill who shouldn't be on the team. The way he is being used I think Counsell probably agrees.

I expect it to improve over time, but until it does improve he really isn't trustworthy.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#31

Posted: July 18, 2017, 8:33 AM Post
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Ennder said:
Brew4U said:
Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.



He will not be a viable major league pitcher without it changing. Don't be fooled by the ERA which is meaningless over this sample, Hader has not pitched well at all. I trust every RP in the pen over him except for Scahill who shouldn't be on the team. The way he is being used I think Counsell probably agrees.

I expect it to improve over time, but until it does improve he really isn't trustworthy.


If Counsell thinks Hader is the second worst pitcher in the bullpen then Stearns is pretty much ruining him by having him on the major league roster. I'm pretty sure Stearns and Counsell are smarter than that.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#32

Posted: July 18, 2017, 9:01 AM Post
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Location: Kenosha, WI
If one thinks Josh Hader has been good they must be stuck on his ERA. Most advanced stats(and the eye test) shows he is erratic and not truly dominating hitters like some think. He is walking 7 per nine innings. That is nothing short of terrible. Opponents BABIP .138...over the long run that is going to rise dramatically. His BABIP in the minors is pushing .300 most years(yes even before Colorado). He is also stranding 96% of runners. Anyone really think that is even close to sustainable? The only good thing going for him is his 9.6 K/9, but honestly that isn't all that impressive for a bullpen arm. Certainly not good enough to be successful with so many walks.

Hader has simply not proven to be effective enough to get more innings. I don't think this bullpen is desperate enough anymore where we just throw Hader on the fire and see how he does.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#33

Posted: July 18, 2017, 10:05 AM Post
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I'll agree the walks are troubling but he's thrown 61% of his pitches for strikes. For comparison, Knebel and Barnes are both 62%.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#34

Posted: July 18, 2017, 12:02 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.


I think someone listed the walks and the situation and some of them were logical, but still it is obviously an issue. There would be no way I would bring him in with the bases loaded.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#35

Posted: July 18, 2017, 12:03 PM Post
Posts: 4000
lcbj68c said:
FVBrewerFan said:
Disagree 100%. Hader's role is to go multiple innings when necessary, not the "7th inning guy."


Bullpen roles are silly. If Hader is the best matchup for a hitter or a group of hitters, he should pitch against that hitter of group of hitters. Whether its in the 5th inning with 1 out or the 13th inning with two outs. Roles are why bullpens fail because managers fall in love with preconceived notions of situations rather than the facts of what is happening in the moment.


Wouldn't you agree facts of the moment are subordinate to how a bullpen does over a season? Perhaps overall bullpen performance is tied to at least semi defined roles even if a certain reliever might seem better suited to a different time than usual. I know I am in the minority on this, outside of virtually every manager ever that is, but I think generally defined roles are a good thing. I read a post above that said "The issue is that CC, like almost every manager, does not understand how to use a bullpen and solely determines when to use different pitchers based on the inning. Nothing else is taken into consideration. Since it was the 6th, there was a 0% CC would have used his "7th inning" guy, or "setup man" or certainly not "closer"." If all the mangers are doing it then there must be some reason for it. I just don't buy into the idea that they all do it because that is the way it has always been done nor do I think it is done without consideration. Considering how bullpen usage has changed over time it's obvious to me most managers arrived at this situation for some reason. That reason is not just to frustrate fans. I think it is done because it is the best way to get the most out of the whole pen. To me this whole debate about proper use of the bullpen is like the debate in football about the prevent defense. All coaches do it because they will all tell you the numbers back them up. Yet everyone thinks it is the stupidest thing to do and the only thing it does is prevent you from winning. Somehow I side with coaches on that as well.

There needs to be a King Thames version of the bible.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#36

Posted: July 18, 2017, 10:17 PM Post
Posts: 301
MrTPlush said:
If one thinks Josh Hader has been good they must be stuck on his ERA. Most advanced stats(and the eye test) shows he is erratic and not truly dominating hitters like some think. He is walking 7 per nine innings. That is nothing short of terrible. Opponents BABIP .138...over the long run that is going to rise dramatically. His BABIP in the minors is pushing .300 most years(yes even before Colorado). He is also stranding 96% of runners. Anyone really think that is even close to sustainable? The only good thing going for him is his 9.6 K/9, but honestly that isn't all that impressive for a bullpen arm. Certainly not good enough to be successful with so many walks.

Hader has simply not proven to be effective enough to get more innings. I don't think this bullpen is desperate enough anymore where we just throw Hader on the fire and see how he does.


Where are these metrics because I simply find this hard to believe. Judge tagged him... bell tagged him and a flare drove that run in. That's his 2. Erratic clearly... he has to be very close to 20 pitches per inning but not dominating? I do not remember a lot of loud outs. All stats that include walks will look overly bad but I dont believe his era is/was scahill lucky.

The walks and high ab pitch count keeps him from rotation consideration currently... but the yankees looked absolutely baffled. So bell judge... who else hit him in a way that should/would have produced runs?


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#37

Posted: July 18, 2017, 11:02 PM Post
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Right now it looks like the only defined roles are Knebel closer & Barnes set up. Drake, Torres & Hughes seem to have been rotated through the 7th inning role based on match ups & availability since Feliz got the heave ho.

As far as Hader, I'm fine with them handling him a little more conservatively out of the pen. I'd try to bring him in clean to start innings in game situations where he can go two to three innings, ideally once every three or four days. I personally wouldn't have brought him into that bases loaded situation, but then again I'm just some dude on a message board.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#38

Posted: July 18, 2017, 11:49 PM Post
Posts: 301
I'd have handed him the ball immediately after phillips put mke up 2-1 sunday. On monday I would have brought in anyone but scahill or hader with the bases loaded.

I dont understand the 1 ip stuff since the break. I figured he'd get 2-3 ip looks to be a "close game" weapon/bp arm saver. Like a long man who pitches in non blowout mop/up situations. In case of a rain delay or short pen staff day... break out hader.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#39

Posted: July 19, 2017, 12:49 PM Post
Posts: 4000
jerichoholicninja said:
Ennder said:
Brew4U said:
Sorry Ender but that is crap and it's so overblown. He gets outs. Does he needs to work on his control, absolutely. But it's no where near as bad as some are making it out to be.



He will not be a viable major league pitcher without it changing. Don't be fooled by the ERA which is meaningless over this sample, Hader has not pitched well at all. I trust every RP in the pen over him except for Scahill who shouldn't be on the team. The way he is being used I think Counsell probably agrees.

I expect it to improve over time, but until it does improve he really isn't trustworthy.


If Counsell thinks Hader is the second worst pitcher in the bullpen then Stearns is pretty much ruining him by having him on the major league roster. I'm pretty sure Stearns and Counsell are smarter than that.


i don't think Stearns is going to risk ruining one of the highest rated left handed pitching prospects in baseball. If anything I think it's more likely they want him to understand what it takes to be an effective major league player by not playing him much if he walks too many. I think if he cuts the walks down his playing time will go up accordingly. Maybe this isn't babying at all. It just might be tough love. A learn to pitch to major league hitters and you get to pitch to more major league hitters sort of thing.

There needs to be a King Thames version of the bible.


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Offline  Re: Babying Hader
#40

Posted: July 19, 2017, 1:37 PM Post
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Thurston Fluff said:
i don't think Stearns is going to risk ruining one of the highest rated left handed pitching prospects in baseball. If anything I think it's more likely they want him to understand what it takes to be an effective major league player by not playing him much if he walks too many. I think if he cuts the walks down his playing time will go up accordingly. Maybe this isn't babying at all. It just might be tough love. A learn to pitch to major league hitters and you get to pitch to more major league hitters sort of thing.


That makes no sense though. "You're going to sit on the bench until you learn to throw strikes."? Send him down if that's the case. He's not a 26 year old finished product. If he's not going to pitch regularly in Milwaukee he needs to be pitching regularly somewhere, whatever role that may be.


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