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Yankees get Sonny Gray

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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#61

Posted: August 01, 2017, 7:18 PM Post
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Humans Need Water said:
He's developing and working on certain aspects of his offensive game. That's the point of the minors. To develop and grow. Just because you're an advanced college bat and 1st rd pick doesn't mean you don't have things to work on. Come 12 months from now it'll make for interesting conversation looking back on people's comments regarding Ray (and Clark for that matter). Zack Collins is hitting 209 with a 763 OPS (only because he's much more of a power bat than Ray). Every player develops differently

Aren't all players in the minors working on things though? I understand the struggles for Clark due to his age and coming out of HS. But a college player picked #5 overall shouldn't have this many things to work on.


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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#62

Posted: August 01, 2017, 7:44 PM Post
Posts: 223
Location: Milwaukee
nate82 said:
I said this in the other thread on Gray and I will repeat this again. The A's were not interested in our second tier prospects beyond Brinson. While Clark, Doubon and others may seem fair the A's didn't see those players as having as much value as what they received from the Yankees.

I believe Phillips, Ortiz, and one more was the offer Stearns gave the A's and they just didn't value Phillips and Ortiz more than what the Yankees gave up. The only way I could see the Brewers getting Gray would have been with losing Brinson and that would have been a historically bad trade for the Brewers.

The A's absolutely could have been interested in our prospects not named Brinson and thought highly of those prospects. But they simply thought more highly of the Yankees package. This doesn't mean our prospects suck and nobody has interest in them, which is what people have been alluding to between the Quintana/Gray trades. Same with the White Sox, they could absolutely like Ray but think more highly of Jimenez. If we're not giving up Brinson then there's only so much Stearns can offer to beat what someone else is willing to offer up.

If the A's and White Sox thought Ray, etc sucked then serious conversations wouldn't have been had because Brinson was never on the table on Stearns' end.


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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#63

Posted: August 01, 2017, 8:41 PM Post
Posts: 223
Location: Milwaukee
LouisEly said:
Humans Need Water said:
He's developing and working on certain aspects of his offensive game. That's the point of the minors. To develop and grow. Just because you're an advanced college bat and 1st rd pick doesn't mean you don't have things to work on. Come 12 months from now it'll make for interesting conversation looking back on people's comments regarding Ray (and Clark for that matter). Zack Collins is hitting 209 with a 763 OPS (only because he's much more of a power bat than Ray). Every player develops differently

Aren't all players in the minors working on things though? I understand the struggles for Clark due to his age and coming out of HS. But a college player picked #5 overall shouldn't have this many things to work on.

Yes, absolutely, but everyone has a different skill set with different weaknesses and obstacles to overcome. Not every player develops the same and, more importantly, not every draft has the same talent level. Take Hiura for example, with his mechanics/approach and the consistency he has repeating he can walk out of bed in the morning and hit line to line and with some power too. He's a pure hitter with not many offensive weaknesses. While he'll continue to develop and tweak things over time like most players do he doesn't have the challenges Ray does. Ray also has big upside so they're going to focus on certain things to make sure he reaches that potential.

I've said this before, Ray started focusing on driving the ball to the middle part of the field then shifted his focus to driving the ball oppo with authority. He's not just heading out there playing his own game every night. When you do that for an extended period of time your stats are going to suffer. It's the same with Phillips last year. They wanted him to work on his patience, work the count while also lifting and driving the ball up the middle (gap to gap) all while tweaking his leg kick (timing mechanism). All of that played a role in his numbers, on the surface, being much worse than his prior years. But that doesn't necessarily speak to his talent level and ability, which is why he's back to putting up great numbers again. Going through that development process all last year has allowed him to just play and let everything fall into place. It's a big reason why he's already tied his HR total in a minor league season in 200 fewer AB. Ray will get to that point. Advanced college bats can still come with warts that need ironing out (as stated earlier Zack Collins is a guy people on here were interested in drafting and he's hitting 30pts below Ray in the same league). His BB rate is 10%, which is good but his K rate is 30%. Part of that is a result of the process he's going through. His line drive rate is up 2.2%, ground ball rate down almost 4% and fly ball rate up 1.5% (however, his infield fly ball rate is down 9.5% so he's hitting way more fly balls, which speaks to him working on lifting and driving the ball when normally he might have hit a liner or ground ball). His pull rate is down 3% and that has been shifted to the middle/oppo approach. Smoothing out that part of his offensive game is what is going to make him a better overall hitter than what he was on draft day.

If the Brewers didn't think he was this talented then they wouldn't have offered him as the headliner for Quintana because Stearns doesn't try to fleece people he puts together packages based on evidence/data where the value is equal. If the White Sox didn't think Ray was this talented then they wouldn't have had serious conversations with the Brewers, they would have said no and moved on. But that wasn't the case.

It's just not as easy and simple as saying he's an advanced college bat who was the 5th overall pick so he should automatically be hitting 300 with a 900 OPS. It'd make life easier if that was the case but it just isn't.


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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#64

Posted: August 01, 2017, 8:44 PM Post
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College players have to adjust to the different bat most of the time and they have to adjust to the better fielding in the majors. They do not try to hit for power all that much because the fielding in college is so subpar that just putting the ball in play anywhere is valuable. For hitters I usually think college players are behind the same aged players drafted out of high school by a significant amount.


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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#65

Posted: August 01, 2017, 11:53 PM Post
Posts: 301
On the strength of draft comment cuz it was brought up. Was the 2017 draft far deeper than the 2016 draft. Looks like the multiple picks immediately cracked the top 30 this year and washed out some of the "stuff" in the system. I dont remember more than ray erceg feliciano and mccallahan (sp) from last years. Thus year i think there are 6? (Keston lutz kj 2 arms and ward... plus 3 international adds.

This year top 30 is pretty potential filthy right now... was the draft spiked talent wise or did stearns just uncork on this draft and int signing period.


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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#66

Posted: August 02, 2017, 8:07 AM Post
Posts: 223
Location: Milwaukee
TJseven7 said:
On the strength of draft comment cuz it was brought up. Was the 2017 draft far deeper than the 2016 draft. Looks like the multiple picks immediately cracked the top 30 this year and washed out some of the "stuff" in the system. I dont remember more than ray erceg feliciano and mccallahan (sp) from last years. Thus year i think there are 6? (Keston lutz kj 2 arms and ward... plus 3 international adds.

This year top 30 is pretty potential filthy right now... was the draft spiked talent wise or did stearns just uncork on this draft and int signing period.

I don't follow the draft until a day before it because I could care less so I can't answer that question. But when I made the point I actually looked up the 2015 draft and Ray wouldn't have come close to sniffing the Top 5 or even the Top 10. Last year Ray, Erceg, Feliciano, Burnes, McClanahan I think were the Top 30 guys. Every year at least a few guys are being added to the Top 30 as you'll have prospects graduate off the list, get traded or bounce off it due to production.


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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#67

Posted: August 02, 2017, 8:50 AM Post
Posts: 223
Location: Milwaukee
Ennder said:
College players have to adjust to the different bat most of the time and they have to adjust to the better fielding in the majors. They do not try to hit for power all that much because the fielding in college is so subpar that just putting the ball in play anywhere is valuable. For hitters I usually think college players are behind the same aged players drafted out of high school by a significant amount.

That's part of it. HS kids, for a while now, play in a ton of wood bat tourneys on travel teams that play year round whereas the college kid is using what's required of them as they don't have a choice.


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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#68

Posted: August 02, 2017, 3:23 PM Post
Posts: 662
I would love to see the college game go to exclusively wood bats.


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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#69

Posted: September 12, 2017, 7:02 AM Post
Posts: 3838
Or how about just giving up the Gray stuff altogether? Enough already! We get it. You think it was a missed opportunity, and you think Sterns made a mistake because he's young. Not you, Joseph. The Gray guys in this thread. The gift of hindsight is a great one


It has nothing to do with the fact that he's young. I don't think there's ever been a topic where so many assumptions have been made about other posters' motivations. "You think he made a mistake because he's young". "You wanted to give up the farm for Gray". Why can't people just read what is written?

I can only speak for myself but I wanted Gray for two reasons. 1) The Brewers could use another quality starting pitcher. Nelsons injury pretty much comfirms that. And 2) The Brewers are a lot closer to competing and trading from minor league depth to acquire an established, controlled major league talent wound help the rebuild along even faster, which is ultimately the goal.

You're absolutely right. Hindsight is a great gift to have. But obviously the people who wanted Gray used a little foresight too. We saw the need for another pitcher.....because there is almost always a need for another pitcher. Woodruff has been lights out and it would have sucked to have to give him up but that's how trades work. But then again who knows if Woodruff would have even been included.

As far as whether Stearns made a mistake.....who knows. It depends on so much that I don't think we will ever be able to know for sure. He did seem a little hesitant to make the big move. If it's because of age, experience, inside information, it's anyone's guess. At this point I guess it doesn't really matter.


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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#70

Posted: September 12, 2017, 7:51 AM Post
Posts: 423
Location: Madison, WI
Interesting thing is that Gray has been excellent for the Yankees (7 starts, 2.74 ERA, 1.17 WHIP), but the Yankees are only 3-4 in games that he's started. In the four losses they've scored 1, 0, 1 and 1 runs. Kind of sounds like the Brewer's offense. Even with as well as Gray has been pitching, I'm not sure how much he would have helped this Brewer team unless he brought a .900+ OPS along with that 2.74 ERA.

Hard to believe that the offense has become such a big problem for Milwaukee in the second half of the year.


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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#71

Posted: September 12, 2017, 8:10 AM Post
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paul253 said:
Or how about just giving up the Gray stuff altogether? Enough already! We get it. You think it was a missed opportunity, and you think Sterns made a mistake because he's young. Not you, Joseph. The Gray guys in this thread. The gift of hindsight is a great one


It has nothing to do with the fact that he's young. I don't think there's ever been a topic where so many assumptions have been made about other posters' motivations. "You think he made a mistake because he's young". "You wanted to give up the farm for Gray". Why can't people just read what is written?

I can only speak for myself but I wanted Gray for two reasons. 1) The Brewers could use another quality starting pitcher. Nelsons injury pretty much comfirms that. And 2) The Brewers are a lot closer to competing and trading from minor league depth to acquire an established, controlled major league talent wound help the rebuild along even faster, which is ultimately the goal.

You're absolutely right. Hindsight is a great gift to have. But obviously the people who wanted Gray used a little foresight too. We saw the need for another pitcher.....because there is almost always a need for another pitcher. Woodruff has been lights out and it would have sucked to have to give him up but that's how trades work. But then again who knows if Woodruff would have even been included.

As far as whether Stearns made a mistake.....who knows. It depends on so much that I don't think we will ever be able to know for sure. He did seem a little hesitant to make the big move. If it's because of age, experience, inside information, it's anyone's guess. At this point I guess it doesn't really matter.


I too would have loved to see Gray in the team's rotation, but not at the price of giving up multiple high-end prospects. We weren't talking about a trade for Greinke or Sabathia here. Granted Gray wasn't Marcom or Jimmy Haynes either. He probably falls somewhere in between. The "young" comment was aimed more at the other poster who was bashing Sterns for not making the move.

Knowing now that this team has the capability of being competitive sooner than thought, I would imagine that we may see some big moves during the offseason, with the aim of competing for a division title in 2018. It wouldn't surprise me to see a move for a big name starting pitcher in January/February.


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Online  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#72

Posted: September 12, 2017, 8:11 AM Post
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I am still very curious to know what the A's wanted the Brewers to give up for Gray. I still think there's a big difference between a GM being young and inexperienced to not being willing to part with too much for a guy.


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Online  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#73

Posted: September 12, 2017, 8:25 AM Post
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There will be no room on this team for Gray. Next season Nelson will return to ACE form and probably strike out 230 batters. Anderson will be the Anderson we've had over the last calendar year. Davies will win 20 games and be a shut down pitcher except a few bad starts where he can't locate pitches. Woodruff will take what he learned from this season and be even better next year. And Hader will be added to the rotation and will have the majority of his starts where he doesn't allow a run and a few starts where it blows up. He will be the #5 on the team but have #1 stuff. And if any of them have any injuries, Burnes will step in mid season and pitch like he has in the minors. The Brewers will go on to win 95 games next season on the backs of their great starting pitching and improved bullpen. Problem solved.


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Offline  Re: Yankees get Sonny Gray
#74

Posted: September 12, 2017, 8:53 AM Post
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Brew4U said:
There will be no room on this team for Gray. Next season Nelson will return to ACE form and probably strike out 230 batters. Anderson will be the Anderson we've had over the last calendar year. Davies will win 20 games and be a shut down pitcher except a few bad starts where he can't locate pitches. Woodruff will take what he learned from this season and be even better next year. And Hader will be added to the rotation and will have the majority of his starts where he doesn't allow a run and a few starts where it blows up. He will be the #5 on the team but have #1 stuff. And if any of them have any injuries, Burnes will step in mid season and pitch like he has in the minors. The Brewers will go on to win 95 games next season on the backs of their great starting pitching and improved bullpen. Problem solved.


Yay for best-case scenarios! I know this is shooting for the moon, but it sure is nice that we have the potential for a young, solid rotation for years to come. Just think about the potential here had Wily not flamed out!

I still say they make a big trade for a #1-#2 type rotation piece, though. Granted it would likely kick Hader to the pen, but that certainly isn't a bad thing in the long run.


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