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Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?

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Offline  Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#1

Posted: August 04, 2017, 1:45 PM Post
Posts: 10118
While it seems clear the Brewers are content with Hader in the bullpen for the rest of the season, where does he go from here in 2018?

Its going to be hard to give him a rotation spot at least to start 2018 at the MLB level, given the competition. You'd also like to not further weaken the weak point of this team when he's been very successful in his role. But you also don't want to get too far away from him starting if you think his future is a high end starter.

If you're going to groom him in the pen, you could be looking at a future closer, or perhaps a 'bullpen ace' situational type role. Where can he be the most successful and provide the best value to the team?


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#2

Posted: August 04, 2017, 1:53 PM Post
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i think he is a starter, just not this season. he wouldn't be the first top prospect to get his MLB feet wet in the pen for his first season.


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#3

Posted: August 04, 2017, 1:57 PM Post
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I think he gets every chance to start from spring next season. A team like the Brewers has to give him every chance to start. Outside of Nelson, I'd say he's more talented than anybody in our current rotation. Should Anderson come back strong, to me the only two guys that have spots assured in the rotation next year are him and Nelson.


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#4

Posted: August 04, 2017, 2:01 PM Post
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he'll be a starter next year. Regardless of the success this year, I dont think our rotation is "locked" up beyond Nelson, Anderson and Davies (baring any year end implosions). his "stuff" is better than everyone else in the rotation.

Nelson
Anderson
Davies
___
___

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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#5

Posted: August 04, 2017, 2:02 PM Post
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If he shows decent control, managing a reasonably low pitch count, and the changeup is OK, then give him a chance to start. In the bullpen I see him more as what I guess you mean by a bullpen ace, a fireman, an Andrew Miller type. High leverage situations, multiple innings when needed.


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#6

Posted: August 04, 2017, 2:05 PM Post
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I think it depends on him being comfortable with more than just his fastball. He's pretty much all fastball currently (with usage rates falling for his other pitches), that could be a result of moving to the bullpen, or lack or comfort with (or control of) his other pitches could be the reason he's in the bullpen.

If he's going to be all FB-CH or FB-SL, he probably winds up in the bullpen. If he can at least flash the third pitch, I think he can start.


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#7

Posted: August 04, 2017, 2:06 PM Post
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I dont think ive read anywhere else but here that Hader is a future BP arm...

Posted: July 10, 2014, 12:30 AM
PrinceFielderx1 Said:
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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#8

Posted: August 04, 2017, 2:07 PM Post
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This is an interesting thing to look at. With an utter lack of inning this year it should be interesting to see how they approach him as a starter. If we plan to compete we will have to get creative.


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Online  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#9

Posted: August 04, 2017, 2:09 PM Post
Posts: 2909
He looks to me more like a relief ace similar to Andrew Miller, and a very valuable one at that. I can understand wanting to see if he could be a starter though

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#10

Posted: August 04, 2017, 2:13 PM Post
Posts: 3850
I think he's a bullpen arm. I jut don't think he has the control to be a starter. Ever since he has come to Milwaukee he's averaged less than five innings per start in the minors. He throws way too many pitches becuase he throws way too many balls. You can't have a starter going five innings every time out because it's a bullpen killer. I think he'll get a shot to start but I think he ends up in the pen.


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#11

Posted: August 04, 2017, 2:17 PM Post
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He (Hader) should be a starter until he proves to be ineffective in that role or unable to remain healthy enough to be in that role.

Individuals that prove to be unable to start but have 1 or 2 exceptional skills over shorter periods are the ones that get converted to bullpen roles (situational ace or closer)...


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#12

Posted: August 04, 2017, 2:36 PM Post
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torts said:
I dont think ive read anywhere else but here that Hader is a future BP arm...


Just one example, but Keith Law has said for years that he thinks Hader is a bullpen arm.


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#13

Posted: August 04, 2017, 2:42 PM Post
Posts: 3551
Let's find out how well Woodruff does in the rotation down the stretch here. Bullpen Ace with Kneble isn't a bad outcome. Hader will probably see some starts in the offseason somewhere to keep the IP higher if they do move on to a SP role. As of now he'd be tough to trust with more than 26starts, unless he was never going over 5IP in his starts.


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#14

Posted: August 04, 2017, 3:05 PM Post
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3and2Fastball said:
He looks to me more like a relief ace similar to Andrew Miller, and a very valuable one at that. I can understand wanting to see if he could be a starter though

If Hader does end up being deemed a bullpen arm, i hope he gets used in a Miller like fashion and not locked into just some rigid 7th or 8th inning role.


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#15

Posted: August 04, 2017, 3:24 PM Post
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chuckiehacks said:
torts said:
I dont think ive read anywhere else but here that Hader is a future BP arm...


Just one example, but Keith Law has said for years that he thinks Hader is a bullpen arm.


Yeah, there are a lot of scouts and analysts that have said they think Hader is a future reliver.


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#16

Posted: August 04, 2017, 3:27 PM Post
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danzig6767 said:
3and2Fastball said:
He looks to me more like a relief ace similar to Andrew Miller, and a very valuable one at that. I can understand wanting to see if he could be a starter though

If Hader does end up being deemed a bullpen arm, i hope he gets used in a Miller like fashion and not locked into just some rigid 7th or 8th inning role.


Amen. Locking a guy into a role based on the number that is next to the 'inning' is one of the most ridiculous things ever to somehow grace its way into the manager 'book.'

Its 2017 and some managers have thankfully started to figure it out, but I still cringe anytime I hear a pitcher referred to as our '7th inning guy' or '8th inning guy.'


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#17

Posted: August 04, 2017, 3:38 PM Post
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He's been compared by some to Chris Sale. Even if he's not quite to that level, elite starters are hard to find. They have to give him a shot. Bullpen is the fall back.


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#18

Posted: August 04, 2017, 4:27 PM Post
Posts: 503
Location: New Berlin, WI
chuckiehacks said:
I think it depends on him being comfortable with more than just his fastball. He's pretty much all fastball currently (with usage rates falling for his other pitches), that could be a result of moving to the bullpen, or lack or comfort with (or control of) his other pitches could be the reason he's in the bullpen.

If he's going to be all FB-CH or FB-SL, he probably winds up in the bullpen. If he can at least flash the third pitch, I think he can start.


Hader throws FB-CH-SL, currently he throws FB the most primarily because nobody can catch up to it. It's so hard and with deceptive delivery, throwing a changeup is doing hitters a favor. Judge hit his HR off a Hader changeup. It isn't uncommon for starters to try using only 2 pitches to get through the order the first time as to not show the hitter everything. I don't think Hader will have a problem throwing more secondary stuff the second and third time through an order if they start catching up to the fastball. In the minors he hasn't been a guy that's gotten blown up 2nd/3rd time through. If Hader doesn't make it as a starter, it will be command related and not because his secondary stuff isn't any good.


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#19

Posted: August 04, 2017, 5:15 PM Post
Posts: 173
I like the current way of using him like once every two weeks. He still hasn't thrown as many MLB innings for the Brewers as Tommy Millone (sigh)


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Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#20

Posted: August 04, 2017, 5:25 PM Post
Posts: 3850
I don't think Hader will have a problem throwing more secondary stuff the second and third time through an order if they start catching up to the fastball


Assuming he can even make it to the third time through the order.


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