LambeauLeap1250 WSSP


  
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next  [ 74 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply

Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?

Author Message
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#21

Posted: August 04, 2017, 6:24 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 2695
Wow what a heads up play by Pina and arcia, impressive as fffffff

Posted: July 10, 2014, 12:30 AM
PrinceFielderx1 Said:
If the Brewers don't win the division I should be banned. However, they will.


Last visited: September 03, 2014, 7:10 PM


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#22

Posted: August 04, 2017, 8:40 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 10019
I think he probably profiles as a super reliever but I don't mind them exploring the starter side of things. I think he is wasted as just a closer.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#23

Posted: August 04, 2017, 9:52 PM Post
User avatar
Global Moderator
Posts: 5438
I know that the best case scenario for Hader is that he becomes a starter. However, I suspect that the club might use him as a reliever going forward.

I have no proof or anything - just a hunch.

Hader's fastball/slider combo would be devastating in the bullpen. He can forget about trying to throw his change up - which doesn't seem to want to ever really come around. The club will let him focus on the things he does well - and let him be really good at that.

Another reason Hader might be in the bullpen is by his own decision. Perhaps he just understands his limitations, and feels the bullpen is the best place for him. He wouldn't be the first guy to go to the bullpen and find that it's really his destiny.

Again, just speculation.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#24

Posted: August 04, 2017, 10:43 PM Post
Posts: 348
adambr2 said:
While it seems clear the Brewers are content with Hader in the bullpen for the rest of the season, where does he go from here in 2018?

Its going to be hard to give him a rotation spot at least to start 2018 at the MLB level, given the competition. You'd also like to not further weaken the weak point of this team when he's been very successful in his role. But you also don't want to get too far away from him starting if you think his future is a high end starter.

If you're going to groom him in the pen, you could be looking at a future closer, or perhaps a 'bullpen ace' situational type role. Where can he be the most successful and provide the best value to the team?


Been saying for close to a month that I dont see him in the rotation in 2018. I don't want him in the rotation... yet. I have no issues with starting his clock in the pen and having him continue to work on the secondary stuff. The Sale comps on his fastball seem legit. Guys don't see it... can't catch it. If he rounds out the arsenal then he has ACE potential. Not TOR... ACE. Until he does he's very likely a very good starter... 3 range with low ip counts. Instead of taking pressure off a bullpen he'd add pressure to the pen.

But having a dude like him who can take the ball from suter davies woodruff when they are rocky and not only put out the fire but carry a few innings. That turns losses into wins. He could be that wipe out weapon even leaning heavy on the FB. We've also seen the price for Miller via trade via contract. It's staggering because its worth it. Hader being a pen weapon... a momentum switch... isn't short changing his prospect status and expected worth in the least.

Nelson Anderson Suter Woodruff Davies Garza... until 2 fall off a cliff (garza traded?) there is zero reason to move hader to the rotation. His arsenal says no currently and the need is low. On the other hand... knebel CL barnes 6/7 hughes 6 and I see a pretty big need.

Having knebel swarzak with barnes hughes and a weapon in hader has the pen looking impressive as of late.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#25

Posted: August 04, 2017, 10:57 PM Post
Posts: 2916
I don't know if Hader can throw 98 consistently as a starter. He's much more hittable cruising at 93-94, although his slider is filthy. I like him more coming out of the pen blazing 98

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#26

Posted: August 04, 2017, 11:08 PM Post
Posts: 49
Location: The Great White North
I would love to see what he can do as a starter but what the Brewers probably already know is that in the worst case scenario he is an absolutely filthy reliever that could be in the Andrew Miller mold. That is extremely valuable in today's game. I don't think it would hurt to give him a chance to start but I believe he is a weapon out of the bullpen. One which I cannot recall the Brewers having in recent history. You might have to go back to Fingers to find a reliever who was as potentially valuable. I might be getting way ahead of myself but it would not surprise me at all if he becomes the next Andrew Miller type. That is exciting.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#27

Posted: August 04, 2017, 11:13 PM Post
Posts: 733
Location: New Berlin, WI
paul253 said:
I don't think Hader will have a problem throwing more secondary stuff the second and third time through an order if they start catching up to the fastball


Assuming he can even make it to the third time through the order.


Absolutely ridiculous comment. Because he's been getting so rocked this entire big league stint...and he's struggled so much in the minor leagues when guys saw him 2-3 times in a game. He may not make it as a starter, but he won't be the dumpster fire you seem to think. Then again, you'd have traded half our farm for Sonny Gray if you ran the show.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#28

Posted: August 04, 2017, 11:18 PM Post
Posts: 733
Location: New Berlin, WI
TJseven7 said:
adambr2 said:
While it seems clear the Brewers are content with Hader in the bullpen for the rest of the season, where does he go from here in 2018?

Its going to be hard to give him a rotation spot at least to start 2018 at the MLB level, given the competition. You'd also like to not further weaken the weak point of this team when he's been very successful in his role. But you also don't want to get too far away from him starting if you think his future is a high end starter.

If you're going to groom him in the pen, you could be looking at a future closer, or perhaps a 'bullpen ace' situational type role. Where can he be the most successful and provide the best value to the team?


Been saying for close to a month that I dont see him in the rotation in 2018. I don't want him in the rotation... yet. I have no issues with starting his clock in the pen and having him continue to work on the secondary stuff. The Sale comps on his fastball seem legit. Guys don't see it... can't catch it. If he rounds out the arsenal then he has ACE potential. Not TOR... ACE. Until he does he's very likely a very good starter... 3 range with low ip counts. Instead of taking pressure off a bullpen he'd add pressure to the pen.

But having a dude like him who can take the ball from suter davies woodruff when they are rocky and not only put out the fire but carry a few innings. That turns losses into wins. He could be that wipe out weapon even leaning heavy on the FB. We've also seen the price for Miller via trade via contract. It's staggering because its worth it. Hader being a pen weapon... a momentum switch... isn't short changing his prospect status and expected worth in the least.

Nelson Anderson Suter Woodruff Davies Garza... until 2 fall off a cliff (garza traded?) there is zero reason to move hader to the rotation. His arsenal says no currently and the need is low. On the other hand... knebel CL barnes 6/7 hughes 6 and I see a pretty big need.

Having knebel swarzak with barnes hughes and a weapon in hader has the pen looking impressive as of late.


If hader has the upside you suggest, doesn't it seem a bit silly to have hader behind really any of them for a rotation spot in 2018? Especially the back end guys like Garza, Davies, and suter. Sale is worlds more valuable than miller, an ace trumps a shut down reliever all day.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#29

Posted: August 05, 2017, 12:40 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 3888
KeithStone53151 said:

If hader has the upside you suggest, doesn't it seem a bit silly to have hader behind really any of them for a rotation spot in 2018? Especially the back end guys like Garza, Davies, and suter. Sale is worlds more valuable than miller, an ace trumps a shut down reliever all day.

I'd love for Hader to cut it as a starter and i get why people look the throwing mechanics, body type, and velocity of Hader and like to compare him with Chris Sale. That said, the odds of him becoming anywhere near as good as Sale are pretty slim.

Sale was a first round pick who quickly reached the majors and never struggled much with command issues. He's a top 2 or 3 pitcher in the game. Hader is only 23 though and while i think the odds are pretty slim that he would become a dominant ace starter, he should be given more chances as a starter before just assigning him to the bullpen.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#30

Posted: August 05, 2017, 12:48 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 3888
reillymcshane said:
I know that the best case scenario for Hader is that he becomes a starter. However, I suspect that the club might use him as a reliever going forward.

I have no proof or anything - just a hunch.

Hader's fastball/slider combo would be devastating in the bullpen. He can forget about trying to throw his change up - which doesn't seem to want to ever really come around. The club will let him focus on the things he does well - and let him be really good at that.

I don't think it's a necessity for Hader to have a reliable change up to stick as a quality starter, but he would have to develop much better command of his slider.

Ben Sheets for example was pretty much just a two pitch starter, fastball and curve. With Ben though, he had impeccable command of both pitches in his prime.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#31

Posted: August 05, 2017, 12:48 AM Post
Posts: 348
He doesn't come close to Sale without added control and a rounded out arsenal. He can come close to Miller as is.

I think moving him into the rotation now is putting him in position to fail while alleviating zero stress on the BP (and adding stress from not being in the BP) as he completes his development. I think he can complete his development in the pen while being a huge positive weapon.

If he went to the rotation as is I'd expect to see something like Vince Velazquez last year. 5.45 ip/start... 4.12 era...3.5 bb/9(I think hader would have that even higher). That's a waste. It mitigates his value.

Is SP Velazquez better than Garza Davies Suter? No! Is Velazquez better than them talent wise... just like Hader...easily! I'd hate to see Hader in the rotation putting up numbers no better than Davies Suter Garza as he figures it out... when he could be a force in the pen while he figures it out.

Right now his shortcomings are hidden in the pen due to short outings and stuff overriding control due to seeing batters twice at most. That won't be the case in the rotation.

Unless you believe he can't develop control and secondary offerings without starting... there is zero reason to make him a starter now.

He is here for 2 reasons.
1 Already has a MLB dominant pen arm.
2 CS wasn't helping him develop.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#32

Posted: August 05, 2017, 1:09 AM Post
Posts: 348
danzig6767 said:
I'd love for Hader to cut it as a starter and i get why people look the throwing mechanics, body type, and velocity of Hader and like to compare him with Chris Sale. That said, the odds of him becoming anywhere near as good as Sale are pretty slim.


I heard the Sale talk as he was coming up and after seeing him I think it goes a bit further than mechanics body type velocity. Mechanics are part of this but Hader also has that same "hidden" release point that makes his FB velocity seem even higher than it is. Like Sale, batters can't seem to catch up to it. It's 95 but it also jumps on them. That's a nasty weapon. That's where the Sale comps end so far.

I don't think that part of the comp is an exaggeration though. Lots of work needed for Hader to rival Sale. But he's got that gift and the potential.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#33

Posted: August 05, 2017, 4:03 AM Post
Posts: 3874
Absolutely ridiculous comment. Because he's been getting so rocked this entire big league stint...and he's struggled so much in the minor leagues when guys saw him 2-3 times in a game.


No, because......as I said....... since he's come to Milwaukee he's only averaged about five innings per start in the minors. If guys are seeing him three times in five innings then yes he is getting rocked. But that's not what I was getting at. As I said he tends to throw a lot of pitches and doesn't last long into games as a starter.....hence my questioning as to guys actually seeing him three times. I'm sorry that I disagree with you on his ability to be a starter but I just don't see it at this point.

Then again, you'd have traded half our farm for Sonny Gray if you ran the show


You claim I made a "absolutely ridiculous comment" and then you say this? Rich. It's amazing how many times I can say something and yet you still see something else. If you honestly think I was willing to "trade half our farm" for Sonny Gray then I suggest you reread that thread and figure out exactly what it is I was willing to give up for him because I made it pretty darn clear. I'll give you a hint......I can pretty much guarantee it wasn't "half the farm". Nice try though.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#34

Posted: August 05, 2017, 6:08 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 10019
It isn't impossible to be a starter with just 2 pitches but it is very hard to do and it usually means you have to have great fastball command to be able to spot it inside and outside, up and down. Hader is nowhere near that type of command. The current Hader most likely would not make it as a starter. That doesn't mean he can't hone the command and become one, but I think it is going to be a rocky road that is going to take multiple seasons of struggling later in games to do it.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#35

Posted: August 05, 2017, 6:53 AM Post
Posts: 280
Location: Milwaukee
paul253 said:
Absolutely ridiculous comment. Because he's been getting so rocked this entire big league stint...and he's struggled so much in the minor leagues when guys saw him 2-3 times in a game.


No, because......as I said....... since he's come to Milwaukee he's only averaged about five innings per start in the minors. If guys are seeing him three times in five innings then yes he is getting rocked. But that's not what I was getting at. As I said he tends to throw a lot of pitches and doesn't last long into games as a starter.....hence my questioning as to guys actually seeing him three times. I'm sorry that I disagree with you on his ability to be a starter but I just don't see it at this point.

Then again, you'd have traded half our farm for Sonny Gray if you ran the show


You claim I made a "absolutely ridiculous comment" and then you say this? Rich. It's amazing how many times I can say something and yet you still see something else. If you honestly think I was willing to "trade half our farm" for Sonny Gray then I suggest you reread that thread and figure out exactly what it is I was willing to give up for him because I made it pretty darn clear. I'll give you a hint......I can pretty much guarantee it wasn't "half the farm". Nice try though.

Where's the evidence for this when factoring in all variables? And why are we only looking at him after we acquired him and not before when he was in A+ and AA with Houston? Further, why does anyone factor in anything CS related for pitchers that aren't fastball/change dominant (not just speaking of Hader but Woodruff pounds the zone and his BB9 was 4.5 this year in AAA)? Go look at Hader's game logs. The vast majority of the time if he's allowed to throw near 100 pitches, like Counsell allows for unless you're Garza, then he's definitely throwing 6-7 innings on average per start from 2014-2016....prior to AAA. Sure there's starts mixed in where he'd only go 4-5 still but that's not where he'd typically end up. These guys are typically on pitch limits, not innings limits. So if he throws 5 innings in 83 pitches how can you say he averages 5 innings per start without factoring in he'd actually be back out there throwing another inning before being removed at the MLB level? Compare that to the game logs of Nelson this year and you won't see much difference regarding the number of innings one would typically throw if given 100 pitches or so.

"...two years ago I would have given him close to zero shot, now that’s probably up to 40 to 50 percent..." - Keith Law (early 2017) referring to him as a starter and he's always been more bullish on Hader than most scouts/analysts. He won't rank anybody in his Top 100 if he thinks they're a pen arm and Hader was 71.

Coming into this year many more scouts believed Hader sticks in the rotation than the pen partly because of his time in A+, AA spanning parts of 2014-2016 his BB9 averages out around 3.0 while being very young for age level and performing very well.

I also don't think people should read too much into his control/BB9 this year with the Brewers given he's in a new role that he's never 100% been in before. He had a 4 inning stretch recently (spanning 4 appearances) where he didn't give up a walk, which was followed by 1BB in 3ip vs Cubs. It's evident he's been pitching much better as the season progresses and he gets more comfortable in this role.

All that said, Hader should absolutely be given every chance in the rotation and if it doesn't work out then you know he'll be a dominant pen arm, hopefully being used in the mold of Miller. Next year you can easily have a rotation of Nelson, Chase, Hader, Woodruff, Davies. Stearns will absolutely target pen arms in the off season to revamp that pen making it lock down, which I hope includes resigning Swarzak. And there is no way guys like Suter, Guerra, Jungmann, etc should be in competition with the likes of Hader and Woodruff for rotation spots. The ceilings aren't in the same atmosphere.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#36

Posted: August 05, 2017, 7:07 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 265
Well I agree with most what you said above, but if Suter peripherals keep up you got to keep him in the rotation. I was a big doubter of Suter, but I have to admit I am starting to come around on him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#37

Posted: August 05, 2017, 7:21 AM Post
Posts: 3874
Where's the evidence for this when factoring in all variables? And why are we only looking at him after we acquired him and not before when he was in A+ and AA with Houston


My evidence of what? I'm simply looking at his and his innings pitched. No that's not a perfect stat but I have neither the time nor quite honestly the interest to look at five years of his game logs and figure out how many pitches he throws. Silly me assumes if he's pitching well and not throwing too many pitches he can at least through six innings. If you want to throw out 18 different stats to back your claim that he can be a starter fine. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. But from the times I have seen him pitch, the stats that I look at showing he usually doesn't get through six innings (only three times in his last ten starts in CS did he reach six innings for instance) and his walks per 9 at levels that would be seriously damaging to a starting pitcher it is my personal belief that he is not destined to be a starter.

On a side note, between this thread and the Sonny Gray thread some people are getting WAY too upset about others not holding the same ridiculously high opinion of our pitching prospects as they do. It's nothing personal against Hader. I just don't see him as a starter. His command, in my opinion, just is not good enough and he is going to struggle with his pitch counts, just like what has happened in CS the last season and a half. I could very well be wrong. I hope I am wrong. But for the love of Pete take a breath. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


Last edited by paul253 on August 05, 2017, 7:35 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#38

Posted: August 05, 2017, 7:35 AM Post
Posts: 501
Location: Madison, WI
Hader will finish this season in the bullpen and I'd guess chances are about 90% that he's pegged for a bullpen job to begin 2018, what happens after that depends on him and how his control improves.

I've honestly been so impressed with Hader's slider that I think he might actually be an effective starter with only two pitches. It can be done but obviously the pitcher needs to have really elite stuff. Greg Maddux was a fastball, change-up, curveball pitcher early in his career but when he hit his peak he went with fastball/change-up about 95% of the time and only threw something else 2 or 3 times a game for reasons unknown (probably just to mess with a hitter's mind). Randy Johnson was mainly fastball/slider during his peak years and really didn't throw much of anything else. I don't know if Hader's fastball movement/location will ever be good enough where he could get away with being a 2-pitch starter...but I'm already leaning towards thinking his slider could be that good.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#39

Posted: August 05, 2017, 11:14 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1351
Location: At the gettin' place
patrickgpe said:
i think he is a starter, just not this season. he wouldn't be the first top prospect to get his MLB feet wet in the pen for his first season.


Just like Chris Sale.

And I am 100% certain that the Hader story will continue exactly like Sale's has.

I hate the Cubs. I hope they die.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Josh Hader: Starter, closer, or bullpen ace?
#40

Posted: August 05, 2017, 12:17 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 3654
I just don't understand why people are so quick to right off Hader as a starter. I feel like you have to let a guy fail as a starter before moving him to the pen. Hader has not failed. And if he does become a reliever Counsel needs to commit to him as a multiple inning reliever until it is apparent he can't do that. His WHIP is almost done to 1. Over a strikeout per inning. Obviously the walks need to come down but guys struggle to get good contact against him.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next  [ 74 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply
  


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Devinep, Fear The Chorizo and 12 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search this forum (phpBB search):
Jump to:  
Search entire board (Google search):
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Test