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Indians acquire Jay Bruce

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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#41

Posted: August 11, 2017, 1:27 PM Post
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I don't think I'd bring Granderson in to teach anyone how to make contact. Maybe on how to hit for power or take walks, but not to make contact.


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#42

Posted: August 11, 2017, 1:35 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
bill hAll Star said:
We need to trade for Curtis Granderson now so his trickle-down effect makes Villar learn to contact the baseball at the plate again. Or bring in Kinsler so his leadership gets Aguilar to transform his defense.

Am I doing this right?


Yep. Sometimes the right mix is just needed. It's okay if you don't believe that. Some do, some don't. But you don't have to attemp to belittle those that do. Your act has gotten stale.


I'm not trying to belittle you necessarily...I'm just wondering how the heck you or anyone knows what this mix is that makes other players better and also why the teams that the 3 or 4 guys in question that are supposed to trickle down succes currently reside on are all terrible.

OK, I guess it sounds like belittling. I just don't understand having the GM/owner flipping players around and paying money to do so and you can belittle them to believe that adding different players will magically resurrect other players...because...trickle-down.


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#43

Posted: August 11, 2017, 1:51 PM Post
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bill hAll Star said:
Brew4U said:
bill hAll Star said:
We need to trade for Curtis Granderson now so his trickle-down effect makes Villar learn to contact the baseball at the plate again. Or bring in Kinsler so his leadership gets Aguilar to transform his defense.

Am I doing this right?


Yep. Sometimes the right mix is just needed. It's okay if you don't believe that. Some do, some don't. But you don't have to attemp to belittle those that do. Your act has gotten stale.


I'm not trying to belittle you necessarily...I'm just wondering how the heck you or anyone knows what this mix is that makes other players better and also why the teams that the 3 or 4 guys in question that are supposed to trickle down succes currently reside on are all terrible.

OK, I guess it sounds like belittling. I just don't understand having the GM/owner flipping players around and paying money to do so and you can belittle them to believe that adding different players will magically resurrect other players...because...trickle-down.


Thats what teams do, pay money for the services of players. And you don't need to understand it to not act like a jerk, do you?

But you're right, I don't know the mix. I wish I did. Teams search for it every year. That's why teams with the best records don't always win, because a mixture (of usually Cardinals) goes out and beats teams with better players. It's not unheard of. Like I said, you don't have to believe in that, but again, don't act like a bunghole towards those that do. I'm not belittling your opinion and haven't in this conversation. Just gave my thoughts on it.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#44

Posted: August 11, 2017, 1:57 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
Thats what teams do, pay money for the services of players. And you don't need to understand it to not act like a jerk, do you?

But you're right, I don't know the mix. I wish I did. Teams search for it every year. That's why teams with the best records don't always win, because a mixture (of usually Cardinals) goes out and beats teams with better players. It's not unheard of. Like I said, you don't have to believe in that, but again, don't act like a bunghole towards those that do.


Let's make a deal. I won't mock the idea of it if the idea of it doesn't involve calling a GM and owner stupid or cheap for not wanting to sink millions of dollars into shuffling deck chairs around and paying millions of dollars to do so to find the right mix. If you want to think that adding an older, mediocre player will fix things, fine. Calling the owner and GM stupid for not doing such things is overboard. I'm not saying that because I feel like defending DS and MA...I just thing it's kinda weird.

And yeah, generally teams win divisions and get to the playoffs due to talent. Adding different personalities can maybe get you over the top. Everyone hated Curt Schilling and the BoSox won plenty of championships with him. Pujols knows the Cardinal Way™ but suddenly his team filled with veterans in Anaheim is garbage.

The Brewers aren't in "get me over the top mode." They're in the mode of maybe accidentally stealing a playoff spot with 83 wins and if Mark wants to spend his own money on Phillips or Kinsler, I'd be OK with it...but I'm not going to call he or DS fools for not wanting to part with $ or future prospects to chase this idea.


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#45

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:15 PM Post
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bill hAll Star said:
Brew4U said:
Thats what teams do, pay money for the services of players. And you don't need to understand it to not act like a jerk, do you?

But you're right, I don't know the mix. I wish I did. Teams search for it every year. That's why teams with the best records don't always win, because a mixture (of usually Cardinals) goes out and beats teams with better players. It's not unheard of. Like I said, you don't have to believe in that, but again, don't act like a bunghole towards those that do.


Let's make a deal. I won't mock the idea of it if the idea of it doesn't involve calling a GM and owner stupid or cheap for not wanting to sink millions of dollars into shuffling deck chairs around and paying millions of dollars to do so to find the right mix. If you want to think that adding an older, mediocre player will fix things, fine. Calling the owner and GM stupid for not doing such things is overboard. I'm not saying that because I feel like defending DS and MA...I just thing it's kinda weird.

And yeah, generally teams win divisions and get to the playoffs due to talent. Adding different personalities can maybe get you over the top. Everyone hated Curt Schilling and the BoSox won plenty of championships with him. Pujols knows the Cardinal Way™ but suddenly his team filled with veterans in Anaheim is garbage.

The Brewers aren't in "get me over the top mode." They're in the mode of maybe accidentally stealing a playoff spot with 83 wins and if Mark wants to spend his own money on Phillips or Kinsler, I'd be OK with it...but I'm not going to call he or DS fools for not wanting to part with $ or future prospects to chase this idea.


To each their own. And I don't have to make a deal on these boards with someone who is actually trying to belittle another poster, all because they don't agree or understand their thinking. Pretty small stuff right there. I didn't mean to offend you by saying our owner was cheap, even though I believe he is to some extent. If i had the means, my payroll was extremely cheap, and I was 2 games out (at one point up 5.5), I would be using some resources (no top prospects) to give myself the opportunity for our fifth playoff team in the Brewers existence. If it didn't work out, so be it. But I wouldn't just stand pat and watch the "Titanic" sink without doing a few things. Swarzak wasn't enough. It just wasn't. And by the new reports, it looks like they might still add someone. Question is, will be it too late.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#46

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:20 PM Post
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I just think it's an odds thing. To start the year, the odds weren't high for the Brewers to make the playoffs, so they filled their gaping holes at 1B and 3B, but traded away most of their bullpen and went into the season with a pretty low payroll.

They had a relatively good first half, mixed with a very bad first half for the Cubs (both relative to pre-season expectations), so they were willing to part with some money and/or prospects to improve the roster. However, the odds of the the Brewers continuing to play a little better than their talent level, the Pirates and Cardinals continuing to play below their talent level, and the Cubs continuing to play a lot worse than their talent level weren't high enough that the Brewers were willing to go overboard in spending to improve their roster.

Stearns didn't sit around doing nothing. He improved the bullpen, which was the weakest area of the team. The fact that the offense, which had been productive, suddenly forgot how to score runs isn't Stearns' fault. If anything, the knowledge that the team could fall apart was the reason he was hesitant to give up too much, and we should be glad that we didn't throw away guys like Brinson, Hader, Ortiz, etc only to have the team fall apart. I seriously doubt that the addition of Kinsler or Quintana would have made much difference when pretty much the whole team has laid an egg since the All Star break.

I was one of the guys who wanted Quintana, but I am very glad we didn't give up what it would've taken to get him, as something like Brinson, Ortiz and Ray probably wouldn't have beaten what the Cubs gave up.

If we could get Kinsler for a song, then I'm sure he'd already be a Brewer. That he's not a Brewer probably means it would take something significant to get him. That or someone else claimed him so that the Brewers or another team couldn't get him.


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#47

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:20 PM Post
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Who other than guys like Gray, Darvish and Quintana were even traded? It seemed like the deadline this year was either big names or secondary pieces. It didn't involve decent to good regulars unless I'm missing someone.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#48

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:24 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
bill hAll Star said:
Brew4U said:
Thats what teams do, pay money for the services of players. And you don't need to understand it to not act like a jerk, do you?

But you're right, I don't know the mix. I wish I did. Teams search for it every year. That's why teams with the best records don't always win, because a mixture (of usually Cardinals) goes out and beats teams with better players. It's not unheard of. Like I said, you don't have to believe in that, but again, don't act like a bunghole towards those that do.


Let's make a deal. I won't mock the idea of it if the idea of it doesn't involve calling a GM and owner stupid or cheap for not wanting to sink millions of dollars into shuffling deck chairs around and paying millions of dollars to do so to find the right mix. If you want to think that adding an older, mediocre player will fix things, fine. Calling the owner and GM stupid for not doing such things is overboard. I'm not saying that because I feel like defending DS and MA...I just thing it's kinda weird.

And yeah, generally teams win divisions and get to the playoffs due to talent. Adding different personalities can maybe get you over the top. Everyone hated Curt Schilling and the BoSox won plenty of championships with him. Pujols knows the Cardinal Way™ but suddenly his team filled with veterans in Anaheim is garbage.

The Brewers aren't in "get me over the top mode." They're in the mode of maybe accidentally stealing a playoff spot with 83 wins and if Mark wants to spend his own money on Phillips or Kinsler, I'd be OK with it...but I'm not going to call he or DS fools for not wanting to part with $ or future prospects to chase this idea.


To each their own. And I don't have to make a deal on these boards with someone who is actually trying to belittle another poster, all because they don't agree or understand their thinking. Pretty small stuff right there. I didn't mean to offend you by saying our owner was cheap, even though I believe he is to some extent. If i had the means, my payroll was extremely cheap, and I was 2 games out (at one point up 5.5), I would be using some resources (no top prospects) to give myself the opportunity for our fifth playoff team in the Brewers existence. If it didn't work out, so be it. But I wouldn't just stand pat and watch the "Titanic" sink without doing a few things. Swarzak wasn't enough. It just wasn't. And by the new reports, it looks like they might still add someone. Question is, will be it too late.


I think the main assumption (backup quarterback theory) here where we differ is that you are applying way too much certainty to modest upgrades getting the job done.

The idea of, "we had a real chance at a fleeting [for this franchise] playoff spot for the playoffs and it would've happened if we made these little moves" is A. ignoring that they possibly tried to make those moves and the teams returned with absurd offers and B. assumes that those moves unequivocally would have put them over the top.


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#49

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:25 PM Post
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trwi7 said:
Who other than guys like Gray, Darvish and Quintana were even traded? It seemed like the deadline this year was either big names or secondary pieces. It didn't involve decent to good regulars unless I'm missing someone.


The whole argument on this thread revolves around "just little upgrades to shake things up" getting the Brewers over the top.


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#50

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:49 PM Post
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bill hAll Star said:

I think the main assumption (backup quarterback theory) here where we differ is that you are applying way too much certainty to modest upgrades getting the job done.

The idea of, "we had a real chance at a fleeting [for this franchise] playoff spot for the playoffs and it would've happened if we made these little moves" is A. ignoring that they possibly tried to make those moves and the teams returned with absurd offers and B. assumes that those moves unequivocally would have put them over the top.


I haven't assumed a damn thing. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth? We could've went out and got Gray and Quintana and missed the playoffs. Not sure when anything close to what you stated above was ever said. That wasn't my point at all. I've even said it's a chance at the right mixture or a kickstarter for the guys on the team. Whatever you want to call it BUT a gaurentee. Never, ever... EVER came close to saying that. Just said that trying something COULD be better than doing nothing at all. And with what I stated about about low payrol, still in the mix, yada yada yada... I don't see the harm in it. And like I also stated, it looks like the Brewers are already checking in on a possible move.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#51

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:49 PM Post
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If the guys on the Brewers are going to suddenly turn on a light switch because Stearns adds one or two mediocre players in either/both of Granderson and Kinsler, then they really, really, really, really need to address how they approach the way they play the game in the first place.

OVer his last 7 days Broxton is OPS-ing .950, so he's quite hot right now, so really we're talking about adding Kinsler. If we add Kinsler, EVERYONE is going to suddenly be like 'OK, WE'RE FINE NOW" and remember how to hit".

I'm absolutely certain that's not how baseball works. I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that's not how professional baseball players think, or operate, or anything. I get "a little shakeup", but when you're averaging -1.5 runs per game for the last month, adding a .720 OPS 2nd baseman isn't " a little shakeup", and isn't suddenly going to turn everyone into the offensive juggernaut they were in the first half.


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#52

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:52 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
bill hAll Star said:

I think the main assumption (backup quarterback theory) here where we differ is that you are applying way too much certainty to modest upgrades getting the job done.

The idea of, "we had a real chance at a fleeting [for this franchise] playoff spot for the playoffs and it would've happened if we made these little moves" is A. ignoring that they possibly tried to make those moves and the teams returned with absurd offers and B. assumes that those moves unequivocally would have put them over the top.


I haven't assumed a damn thing. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth? We could've went out and got Gray and Quintana and missed the playoffs. Not sure when anything close to what you stated above was ever said. That wasn't my point at all. I've even said it's a chance at the right mixture or a kickstarter for the guys on the team. Whatever you want to call it BUT a gaurentee. Never, ever... EVER came close to saying that. Just said that trying something COULD be better than doing nothing at all. And with what I stated about about low payrol, still in the mix, yada yada yada... I don't see the harm in it. And like I also stated, it looks like the Brewers are already checking in on a possible move.


Well, it's possible that we'll have Phillips or Kinsler within a few days/hours, but harm can be done and that is why I would assume no move has been made to this point.

If those guys cleared waivers and required $0 and 0 prospects to trade for, I'll bet Attanasio would have made the deal. I think he'd even put some $ down for those guys. I think once you talk about picking up all of Kinsler's contract is where I don't blame Mark from saying "OK, this probably won't help us nearly enough for me to burn $15 million bucks on" and I'd be fine with that.

The fact that it hasn't happened yet means acquiring those guys is either:

A. Not possible due something like not getting them on waivers or Kinsler saying he'd reject trade to Milwaukee.

B. The asking price being 2 good prospects or covering all of Kinsler's contract + a good prospect.


Last edited by bill hAll Star on August 11, 2017, 2:53 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#53

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:53 PM Post
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RoCoBrewfan said:
If the guys on the Brewers are going to suddenly turn on a light switch because Stearns adds one or two mediocre players in either/both of Granderson and Kinsler, then they really, really, really, really need to address how they approach the way they play the game in the first place.

OVer his last 7 days Broxton is OPS-ing .950, so he's quite hot right now, so really we're talking about adding Kinsler. If we add Kinsler, EVERYONE is going to suddenly be like 'OK, WE'RE FINE NOW" and remember how to hit".

I'm absolutely certain that's not how baseball works. I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that's not how professional baseball players think, or operate, or anything. I get "a little shakeup", but when you're averaging -1.5 runs per game for the last month, adding a .720 OPS 2nd baseman isn't " a little shakeup", and isn't suddenly going to turn everyone into the offensive juggernaut they were in the first half.


You're statement above assume that the current Brewer players aren't capable of a hot streak. Say you bring in a Kinsler and he goes on a tear. All of a sudden, pressures off a bit and another guy lights up. And another and another. You're telling me that you've never seen something like that in baseball? Or any other sport? It's not that Kinsler magically waves pixie dust or teaches anyone to hit and all of a sudden we are the 1927 Yankees. But it can spark a flame that other guys pick up. It really isn't unheard of.


Last edited by Brew4U on August 11, 2017, 2:56 PM, edited 1 time in total.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#54

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:55 PM Post
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bill hAll Star said:
Brew4U said:
bill hAll Star said:

I think the main assumption (backup quarterback theory) here where we differ is that you are applying way too much certainty to modest upgrades getting the job done.

The idea of, "we had a real chance at a fleeting [for this franchise] playoff spot for the playoffs and it would've happened if we made these little moves" is A. ignoring that they possibly tried to make those moves and the teams returned with absurd offers and B. assumes that those moves unequivocally would have put them over the top.


I haven't assumed a damn thing. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth? We could've went out and got Gray and Quintana and missed the playoffs. Not sure when anything close to what you stated above was ever said. That wasn't my point at all. I've even said it's a chance at the right mixture or a kickstarter for the guys on the team. Whatever you want to call it BUT a gaurentee. Never, ever... EVER came close to saying that. Just said that trying something COULD be better than doing nothing at all. And with what I stated about about low payrol, still in the mix, yada yada yada... I don't see the harm in it. And like I also stated, it looks like the Brewers are already checking in on a possible move.


Well, it's possible that we'll have Phillips or Kinsler within a few days/hours, but harm can be done and that is why I would assume no move has been made to this point.

If those guys cleared waivers and required $0 and 0 prospects to trade for, I'll bet Attanasio would have made the deal. I think he'd even put some $ down for those guys. I think once you talk about picking up all of Kinsler's contract is where I don't blame Mark from saying "OK, this probably won't help us nearly enough for me to burn $15 million bucks on" and I'd be fine with that.

The fact that it hasn't happened yet means acquiring those guys is either:

A. Not possible due something like not getting them on waivers or Kinsler saying he'd reject trade to Milwaukee.

B. The asking price being 2 good prospects or covering all of Kinsler's contract + a good prospect.


You're right, the teams could ask for a ridiculous price to pay do his devices or he doesn't want to come. But hopefully their at least trying. If the price is right, it's worth a crack at it. If it doesn't work out, it's just another disappointing Brewer collapse.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#55

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:56 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
You're statement above assume that the current Brewer players aren't capable or f a hot streak. Say you bring in a Kinsler and he goes on a tear. All of a sudden, pressures off a bit and another guy lights up. And another and another. You're telling me that you've never seen something like that in baseball? Or any other sport? It's not that Kinsler magically waves pixie dust and all of a sudden we are the 1927 Yankees. But it can spark a flame that other guys pick up. It really isn't unheard of.


There's an extremely high chance that Santana or Arcia or Thames get on fire without the presence of Ian Kinsler. There's also a high chance that Ian Kinsler comes in and is "just OK" for the rest of the season.

I'd say Villar's head is pretty messed up but who's to say that Hernan Perez couldn't catch fire? That's pretty much just as likely as Ian Kinsler at this point of Kinsler's career.


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#56

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:58 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
You're right, the teams could ask for a ridiculous price to pay do his devices or he doesn't want to come. But hopefully their at least trying. If the price is right, it's worth a crack at it. If it doesn't work out, it's just another disappointing Brewer collapse.


I think they're trying. I agree that if Mark wants to spend a few million bucks to bring Kinsler in and probably keep him around with not much in the 2018 pipeline (Dubon is OK, but I'm not expecting stardom) and throw zero prospects at it...completely fine by me at this point.

If it starts to cost prospects I'm not a fan. If Mark doesn't think it's worth the investment I actually understand in this case. I think they're going to try to make a small move like this, though.


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#57

Posted: August 11, 2017, 2:58 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
RoCoBrewfan said:
If the guys on the Brewers are going to suddenly turn on a light switch because Stearns adds one or two mediocre players in either/both of Granderson and Kinsler, then they really, really, really, really need to address how they approach the way they play the game in the first place.

OVer his last 7 days Broxton is OPS-ing .950, so he's quite hot right now, so really we're talking about adding Kinsler. If we add Kinsler, EVERYONE is going to suddenly be like 'OK, WE'RE FINE NOW" and remember how to hit".

I'm absolutely certain that's not how baseball works. I'm certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that's not how professional baseball players think, or operate, or anything. I get "a little shakeup", but when you're averaging -1.5 runs per game for the last month, adding a .720 OPS 2nd baseman isn't " a little shakeup", and isn't suddenly going to turn everyone into the offensive juggernaut they were in the first half.


You're statement above assume that the current Brewer players aren't capable of a hot streak. Say you bring in a Kinsler and he goes on a tear. All of a sudden, pressures off a bit and another guy lights up. And another and another. You're telling me that you've never seen something like that in baseball? Or any other sport? It's not that Kinsler magically waves pixie dust or teaches anyone to hit and all of a sudden we are the 1927 Yankees. But it can spark a flame that other guys pick up. It really isn't unheard of.


Isn't it just as likely that Broxton or Villar go on a tear, because Broxton has gone on a tear and it hasn't made a difference.


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#58

Posted: August 11, 2017, 3:04 PM Post
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Again, there is no guarantee Kinsler does squat. I wish Villar would just take off and do what he did a year ago but I doubt he even gets the opportunity to do so. If I'm getting a choice between seeing Sogard get a good chunk of th starts, I'm going after Kinsler. If he plays the defense he does and at OPS's .775-.800+ the rest of the way ya never know what that could do.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#59

Posted: August 11, 2017, 3:08 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
Again, there is no guarantee Kinsler does squat. I wish Villar would just take off and do what he did a year ago but I doubt he even gets the opportunity to do so. If I'm getting a choice between seeing Sogard get a good chunk of th starts, I'm going after Kinsler. If he plays the defense he does and at OPS's .775-.800+ the rest of the way ya never know what that could do.


It appears that Villar is back in there today, but what if Hernan played 2B and put up a .750-.775 OPS and played great defense?


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Offline  Re: Indians acquire Jay Bruce
#60

Posted: August 11, 2017, 3:20 PM Post
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bill hAll Star said:
Brew4U said:
Again, there is no guarantee Kinsler does squat. I wish Villar would just take off and do what he did a year ago but I doubt he even gets the opportunity to do so. If I'm getting a choice between seeing Sogard get a good chunk of th starts, I'm going after Kinsler. If he plays the defense he does and at OPS's .775-.800+ the rest of the way ya never know what that could do.


It appears that Villar is back in there today, but what if Hernan played 2B and put up a .750-.775 OPS and played great defense?


He might. I can't see it because of his lack of plate discipline but he might. I don't think his defense is stellar either but maybe that's just me. Not a Perez fan but he could get hot. I'd take Kinsler still.

“There's a fine line between being confident and cocky, or overconfident. This is an extremely humbling game. But if you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to believe in you.”


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