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2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster

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Online  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 09, 2017, 12:22 PM Post
Posts: 501
Location: New Berlin, WI
OnaBadger58 said:
coolhandluke121 said:
They were offered Puig, McCarthy, and 2 prospects; how anyone could fail to see at the time that even Puig by himself was a much better option than Braun with his age, salary, injury history, and past PED use boggles the mind, but I guess baseball has the same problem as the NBA in that fans love to see guys hit no matter how mediocre they are overall, just like NBA fans like to see guys score even if they otherwise suck.

Really? Do you remember Puig in 2016? Braun had more HR's than Puig had extra base hits (yes there were 200 more ABs). Puig is just as injury prone as Braun is. He was sent down in 2016 because of his poor play and immaturity. When he got recalled, he was in a strict platoon. Not to mention Puig is a gamble when it comes to team chemistry. How would he deal with playing in Milwaukee and not making the playoffs every year?


There were a small number of people on this board in favor of the deal. Most weren't. I think people tend to overreact to the current year of production. Most people wrote off Phillips after his 2016 season. Most are currently writing off villar after the 2017 season. I also think some people are overreacting to his season this year and not looking at his body of work or any of the advanced metrics pointing to some lousy luck. I personally thought there was a very real chance that Puig was a comparable player to Braun at the time, but I didn't want any part of Puig under any circumstances as a bad clubhouse guy on a young/impressionable team. Calling Puig a gamble when it comes to team chemistry is actually very generous in my opinion.


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Online  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 09, 2017, 2:24 PM Post
Posts: 10110
KeithStone53151 said:
OnaBadger58 said:
coolhandluke121 said:
They were offered Puig, McCarthy, and 2 prospects; how anyone could fail to see at the time that even Puig by himself was a much better option than Braun with his age, salary, injury history, and past PED use boggles the mind, but I guess baseball has the same problem as the NBA in that fans love to see guys hit no matter how mediocre they are overall, just like NBA fans like to see guys score even if they otherwise suck.

Really? Do you remember Puig in 2016? Braun had more HR's than Puig had extra base hits (yes there were 200 more ABs). Puig is just as injury prone as Braun is. He was sent down in 2016 because of his poor play and immaturity. When he got recalled, he was in a strict platoon. Not to mention Puig is a gamble when it comes to team chemistry. How would he deal with playing in Milwaukee and not making the playoffs every year?


There were a small number of people on this board in favor of the deal. Most weren't. I think people tend to overreact to the current year of production. Most people wrote off Phillips after his 2016 season. Most are currently writing off villar after the 2017 season. I also think some people are overreacting to his season this year and not looking at his body of work or any of the advanced metrics pointing to some lousy luck. I personally thought there was a very real chance that Puig was a comparable player to Braun at the time, but I didn't want any part of Puig under any circumstances as a bad clubhouse guy on a young/impressionable team. Calling Puig a gamble when it comes to team chemistry is actually very generous in my opinion.


You guys are talking about Braun for Puig+McCarthy+2 prospects like its a good thing we didn't take that deal when it pretty clearly would have been a good deal.

Puig isn't perfect, he's a talented young player with some maturity issues. You're not getting that kind of upside and talent without some risk for Braun who has plenty of red flags of his own, just different kinds.

There's no way L.A. would offer that same deal now.


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Offline  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 09, 2017, 2:55 PM Post
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adambr2 said:
OnaBadger58 said:
coolhandluke121 said:
They were offered Puig, McCarthy, and 2 prospects; how anyone could fail to see at the time that even Puig by himself was a much better option than Braun with his age, salary, injury history, and past PED use boggles the mind, but I guess baseball has the same problem as the NBA in that fans love to see guys hit no matter how mediocre they are overall, just like NBA fans like to see guys score even if they otherwise suck.

Really? Do you remember Puig in 2016? Braun had more HR's than Puig had extra base hits (yes there were 200 more ABs). Puig is just as injury prone as Braun is. He was sent down in 2016 because of his poor play and immaturity. When he got recalled, he was in a strict platoon. Not to mention Puig is a gamble when it comes to team chemistry. How would he deal with playing in Milwaukee and not making the playoffs every year?


You guys are talking about Braun for Puig+McCarthy+2 prospects like its a good thing we didn't take that deal when it pretty clearly would have been a good deal.

Puig isn't perfect, he's a talented young player with some maturity issues. You're not getting that kind of upside and talent without some risk for Braun who has plenty of red flags of his own, just different kinds.

There's no way L.A. would offer that same deal now.

I didn't say it was a good deal, I just am skeptical about Puig being a fit with the Brewers. I don't agree with what CHL121 said about Puig, by himself, being a much better option that Braun (bolded in the quote). The Dodgers are a 90+ win team every year and they have the veteran leadership to be able to handle the immaturities of Puig. I would be very hesitant to bring him to an inconsistent and young team.


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Offline  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 09, 2017, 3:32 PM Post
Posts: 1801
MNBrew said:
The Braun-to-1B point has been hashed and re-hashed a zillion times. The organization has stated very clearly that that's not a direction they'll go. Braun is a solid LF whose play has really only been affected over the years by the injuries for which he's needed to compensate (playing a little deeper and not diving quite so often this year, for instance).

The problem with this statement is that it ignores the passage of time. The Braun to 1b argument keeps coming up in the same way that the idea of moving an aging parent out of their house keeps coming up. The fact that the family decided it didn't make sense five years ago doesn't tell us much about whether it's a good idea today.

Braun (like every player) gets slower as he ages, he gets more vulnerable to injury, he has less energy to spread across his game. Moving him to 1b almost certainly makes more sense with each passing year. The questions, I would think, are (1) whether Braun just refuses to do it, (2) whether there's some categorical reason he can't do it, and (3) how much value the switch would bring overall.

Right now this team has a major pipeline of OF talent and two older guys at 1b -- and they have to put Braun somewhere. Question (3) therefore seems to favor moving him (unless the team loves Thames and Aguilar more than we think). (2) could be a problem, but I can't see it. Maybe they do think his fielding problems at 3b were prohibitive for 1b -- but it's really hard to imagine he'd be worse than Carter and Thames. Maybe they think diving for grounders would be worse for his body than the rigors of OF play -- but generally teams seem to view 1b as an easier assignment.

For those reasons, I think the issue right now most likely comes down to question (1) -- Braun's willingness to make the move.


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Offline  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 09, 2017, 4:27 PM Post
Posts: 29
OnaBadger58 said:
coolhandluke121 said:
They were offered Puig, McCarthy, and 2 prospects; how anyone could fail to see at the time that even Puig by himself was a much better option than Braun with his age, salary, injury history, and past PED use boggles the mind,

Really? Do you remember Puig in 2016?


Yes, really. Just freeing up a roster spot and getting rid of Braun's salary would have been worth it. Puig was just a lottery ticket. You'd have to be in total denial about Braun's injury history and decline since 2012 to think he would be anything but a bad contract in the last few years of his deal. And who cares about 2016? The Brewers weren't playing for 2016, and there was probably an 80% chance Puig would be much better and Braun much worse after that season.

I have to admit that those of us who wanted to trade Braun for Puig were wrong on on one count though. We figured Braun would be a wasted roster spot, a walking injury, and a drag on the payroll when the Brewers were ready to contend again in a couple years. Turns out even we were overly optimistic, because they contended this year and Braun failed to even reach 1.0 WAR.

Everything that went well this year was because of getting away from the old way of doing things. Braun was the only guy they didn't have the sense to move on from, and that non-move was the only really bad decision they've made.


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Online  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 09, 2017, 5:20 PM Post
Posts: 10110
OnaBadger58 said:
I didn't say it was a good deal, I just am skeptical about Puig being a fit with the Brewers. I don't agree with what CHL121 said about Puig, by himself, being a much better option that Braun (bolded in the quote). The Dodgers are a 90+ win team every year and they have the veteran leadership to be able to handle the immaturities of Puig. I would be very hesitant to bring him to an inconsistent and young team.


To each their own, I personally think that kind of thing is a little overblown. The Dodgers are a veteran team to be sure, but they have some talent on the roster that is as young or younger than anyone we have in Seager and Bellinger. If Puig's presence was a distraction it certainly didn't affect those two.


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Offline  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 10, 2017, 2:39 AM Post
Posts: 214
coolhandluke121 said:
I have to admit that those of us who wanted to trade Braun for Puig were wrong on on one count though. We figured Braun would be a wasted roster spot, a walking injury, and a drag on the payroll when the Brewers were ready to contend again in a couple years. Turns out even we were overly optimistic, because they contended this year and Braun failed to even reach 1.0 WAR.


I don't disagree with the overall point about the trade, I wanted us to take the deal as well, but you're exaggerating how bad Braun was this season. From where do you get that he didn't accrue even 1 WAR? BBref has him at 1.2, Fangraphs at 1.5 and BP at 1.7.


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Offline  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 10, 2017, 9:49 AM Post
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I am not a Braun pessimist/hater and would've taken the trade, but I'm also not ribbing the Brewers in hindsight. I liked Puig as the wild card throw-in.

The Dodgers are the ones that backed out, so whatever.


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Online  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 10, 2017, 10:13 AM Post
Posts: 10110
bill hAll Star said:
The Dodgers are the ones that backed out, so whatever.


Do you have a link to anything that indicates this?

Not to question your credibility, but I've just never heard that to be the case.


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Offline  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 10, 2017, 10:20 AM Post
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Location: La Crosse
adambr2 said:
OnaBadger58 said:
I didn't say it was a good deal, I just am skeptical about Puig being a fit with the Brewers. I don't agree with what CHL121 said about Puig, by himself, being a much better option that Braun (bolded in the quote). The Dodgers are a 90+ win team every year and they have the veteran leadership to be able to handle the immaturities of Puig. I would be very hesitant to bring him to an inconsistent and young team.


To each their own, I personally think that kind of thing is a little overblown. The Dodgers are a veteran team to be sure, but they have some talent on the roster that is as young or younger than anyone we have in Seager and Bellinger. If Puig's presence was a distraction it certainly didn't affect those two.


And I may be overblowing it, but it is just easier to mask chemistry issues from Puig A) when your consistently winning (winning cures all) B) when you have veterans to mentor Puig C) when he isn't expected to be "the guy" on his team.


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Offline  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 10, 2017, 10:23 AM Post
Posts: 29
Lathund said:

I don't disagree with the overall point about the trade, I wanted us to take the deal as well, but you're exaggerating how bad Braun was this season. From where do you get that he didn't accrue even 1 WAR? BBref has him at 1.2, Fangraphs at 1.5 and BP at 1.7.


Baseball reference has him at 1.7 oWAR and -0.9 dWAR this year. Their WAR calculations are better because they confirm my pre-existing biases.

Seriously though, he's been pretty bad on defense for a while. I don't know how you can measure lack of instincts, but I do know that he's mostly been able to make up for it with speed in the past and that's gonna change real fast and real soon. It has probably started already. If you calculate the split-seconds lost by bad initial reads, you'd probably find that only the very fastest outfielders in all of baseball can consistently make up for it and be respectable defenders.

I know his salary isn't supposed to be so bad considering how few obligations they have, but it could be the difference between signing a great free agent vs. a good one. I know the thought is that Bryce Harper and Manny Machado will get way too much, but if you're getting so many other good players for so cheap, who cares? The Yankees and Red Sox don't have unlimited money. Without Braun, the Brewers might have had a rare opportunity to sign one of the best players in baseball in his prime.

I know he hit okay this year, but with all the questions marks, it's not worth it. The only way he can really be a big help is to move to 1b. They might have been just as good with a Phillips/Perez platoon in left, if not better. And my guess is that every year, there will be a bunch of bargain guys who could have been had for next to nothing who will be just as good as Braun. At least at 1b, he's not blocking any other prospects and might not be a negative defender.


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Offline  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 10, 2017, 10:36 AM Post
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adambr2 said:
bill hAll Star said:
The Dodgers are the ones that backed out, so whatever.


Do you have a link to anything that indicates this?

Not to question your credibility, but I've just never heard that to be the case.


I'll try to find the article that specifically says the Dodgers waited too long and the clock ran out, but this one notes that it got down to "the final prospect" in the trade discussions.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2663 ... asiel-puig

But like I said, I am 99% sure I had read that the Brewers were waiting to hear back and the Dodgers never got back to them.

One could also say that Stearns should have just taken a lesser deal, but for all we know, the prospects could have been non-impact guys making the trade even less appealing back then.


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Offline  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 10, 2017, 10:50 AM Post
Posts: 29
I believe that's going to come back to haunt the Brewers many times in the coming years. I guess I've said my piece and don't want to beat a dead horse, but it's gonna be debated again many times before his deal is up. Really hope he plays 1b next year.


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Offline  Re: 2018 Brewers 25 Man Roster
Posted: October 10, 2017, 11:20 AM Post
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coolhandluke121 said:
I believe that's going to come back to haunt the Brewers many times in the coming years. I guess I've said my piece and don't want to beat a dead horse, but it's gonna be debated again many times before his deal is up. Really hope he plays 1b next year.


We've discussed this on RGM. You win some, you lose some. Stearns could have given up Lucroy earlier than he did. Waited it out and won. Braun was playing well and at the time, the Dodgers trade probably just looked something that slashed Braun's '19 and '20 salary from the books with the Puig wild card thrown in. It's possible that Puig and McCarthy wouldn't have recovered their value in Milwaukee as they just did in 2017.

The no trade thing is an issue, but it's possible that Stearns can still shed a year or two of the salary if they really need to or maybe flip him before 2019 for an overpaid, older back-end starting pitcher or infielder that fits our needs better while they other team could use a DH.

Stearns has timed almost every trade perfectly and for all we know, the Dodgers jobbed him at the deadline in 2016 (we were likely only talking to 1-2 teams about Braun given his trade constraints). For those reasons, I'm not losing sleep over it.

He seems to hold out for maximum value (Boston/SF/Rangers trades) and has walked away with a steal every time. The downside of doing that is every once in a while you hold off too long on a different trade that backfires. That's how it goes. Maybe he could have just done McCarthy/Puig and called it a day but thought he could get more and the Dodgers just hung up the phone at 11:30 PM on deadline night.


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