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Schoop news (Latest- Non-Tendered)

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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 05, 2018, 11:34 PM Post
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The Brewers faced 6 lefty starters in the playoffs and Schoop started only one of those games (and he went 0 for 5 in that game). I think that tells you all you need to know about his future with the Brewers. He's a turd.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 7:03 AM Post
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502 to Right said:
The Brewers faced 6 lefty starters in the playoffs and Schoop started only one of those games (and he went 0 for 5 in that game). I think that tells you all you need to know about his future with the Brewers. He's a turd.


Just out of curiosity, the Brewers just went on a deep playoff run and came within one game of making the World Series. Despite that, and after looking back through your posts since July, 2/3 or more of your posts were directly related to Schoop. So, what's the deal? Why so stuck on this one move/player?


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 7:28 AM Post
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reillymcshane said:
The thing about Schoop is that as you compare him to other guys, I circle back to these things:

1. Age. He's only 27. The other 2B options are generally 30-35 years old. That isn't that old - but history has shown that as players age they generally don't get better. If someone is going to get better - it's more likely to be the 27 year old player, who is generally considered in his prime.

2. He's had recent success. 32 HR and a .293 BA just a year ago. You can hope he can return to that point - or at least get somewhere in between - say 25 HR and a .260-.270 BA. While he's not going to be a high OBP guy, that would make him a really solid player.

3. He plays good defense. Some guys - Daniel Murphy, for instance, are awful fielders. Schoop is a good defender, and I think that matters on this team.

4. The team's commitment is limited to one year. Some of the better 2B options - such as Marwin Gonzalez - are going to get 3-4 years and $10M+ a year.

5. He's been healthy. This is often age-related. He just doesn't have the mileage of the other players - and thus isn't as beat up. A lot of the older players have significant health-related issues.

I'm not saying that Schoop should be our guy. The Brewers have to believe he can get back on track. Despite his struggles last year, I can see how the club might want him back.


I think #3 and #4 are going to be the main reasons he stays. Brewers value defense rather high, AND they have two young guys in Dubon and Huira that could be ready in a year at 2B. No need to create a log-jam in the IF

Posted: July 10, 2014, 12:30 AM
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If the Brewers don't win the division I should be banned. However, they will.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 8:00 AM Post
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I think he stays for that one year and they role the dice and try to add to the catching spot.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 8:16 AM Post
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Location: Madison, WI
True Blue Brew Crew said:
SRB said:
JosephC said:
I've moved into the "don't offer arbitration to Schoop" group and am willing to move on.

I kind of like Logan Forsythe the more I look at him. He was just awful last year but from 2015-2017 he was a .261/.348/.414/.762 hitter and pretty much average defensively at 2B. He'll be entering his age 32 season, that's not too old, and I'd guess he'll bounce back slightly from his bad 2018 season (.232/.313/.291/.604). Right handed bat that can also play 3B, so he could see some at-bats there if they decide to sit Shaw against certain lefty pitchers. Contract estimates on him are 1 year for somewhere between 1 and 2 million. Worst case scenario is that he bombs. If so then Hiura comes up at the end of May and Forsythe was a 1-2 million dollar investment which allowed the Brewers to play the service time and Super Two games with Hiura. Minimal financial risk with a bit of OBP upside.


Why would we gamble in Forsythe bouncing back, when we could gamble on Schoop (a better player) bouncing back.


I'm not endorsing either player but the obvious answer would be $$$


Yep, ~10 million dollars versus ~1.5 million dollars. I'd take that money and add it to other available funds and make a run at Wilson Ramos. All speculation, but I'm guessing that 10 million dollars dedicated to Schoop will really limit what the Brewers will be able to do this off-season in roster moves. Hopefully I'm wrong and Attanasio bumps the payroll to 125 million, which is a level that would make offering arbitration to Schoop a no-brainer yes. But I'll believe it when I see is (referring to the 125 million dollar payroll). I'm looking at it as Schoop + Pina/Kratz or perhaps Forsythe + Ramos/Pina. And with Hiura waiting in the wings, to me taking Ramos and a 6-8 week downgrade with at 2B with Forsythe (assuming Schoop will outplay him, and I'd agree the odds favor that) is the better decision.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 10:29 AM Post
Posts: 3650
Location: New Berlin, WI
reillymcshane said:
The thing about Schoop is that as you compare him to other guys, I circle back to these things:

1. Age. He's only 27. The other 2B options are generally 30-35 years old. That isn't that old - but history has shown that as players age they generally don't get better. If someone is going to get better - it's more likely to be the 27 year old player, who is generally considered in his prime.

2. He's had recent success. 32 HR and a .293 BA just a year ago. You can hope he can return to that point - or at least get somewhere in between - say 25 HR and a .260-.270 BA. While he's not going to be a high OBP guy, that would make him a really solid player.

3. He plays good defense. Some guys - Daniel Murphy, for instance, are awful fielders. Schoop is a good defender, and I think that matters on this team.

4. The team's commitment is limited to one year. Some of the better 2B options - such as Marwin Gonzalez - are going to get 3-4 years and $10M+ a year.

5. He's been healthy. This is often age-related. He just doesn't have the mileage of the other players - and thus isn't as beat up. A lot of the older players have significant health-related issues.

I'm not saying that Schoop should be our guy. The Brewers have to believe he can get back on track. Despite his struggles last year, I can see how the club might want him back.


I'm not sure item 4 is very fair, at least using Marwin Gonzalez. His versatility is going to be a huge factor in his contract. If he was a 2b only, yeah then he might be comparable to Schoop. But he's basically a better version of Perez in every way, and a switch hitter.

I don't think we keep Schoop specifically because of Hiura and because Schoop lacks positional flexibility. Let's say Schoop posts a 850 OPS or better through mid-June, that's great and all but Hiura gets stuck in AAA. Let's say Schoop posts a 650 OPS or worse through mid-June, Hiura likely takes the job and you have a 2b only wasting roster space...or you cut him and eat a 10 million loss...but you definitely have a 2b that cost you wins. Anything between that leads to a very difficult decision. If he's low-700s(probably the most likely outcome), it's going to be tough to justify benching him when Hiura comes up because low 700s isn't terrible. Or Hiura comes up and splits time and doesn't get a true chance to prove himself. Or Hiura doesn't come up at all and we don't have the best lineup out there in the 2nd half over service time concerns. The 850 or better OPS outcome isn't a BAD outcome, but it certainly isn't ideal and is very unlikely. Far more likely is the other 2 scenarios which would be bad and inefficient outcomes.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 11:32 AM Post
Posts: 228
Location: Washburn, WI
One interesting route to think about is to let Schoop go and sign Marwin Gonzalez. Gonzalez is projected to get a 4 year, $36 million contract. What if the Brewers overspent a little here to a 4 year, $50 million contract or so to outbid other teams and draw him to Milwaukee? They can cut ties with Schoop now, make Gonzalez the everyday second baseman, and can now include Hiura in a trade for an impact player. I am pretty high on Hiura, but if he could be included in a package for a TOR starter or middle of the order impact bat for a few years, it could be worth it. Especially if you have second base locked down for a few seasons.

They can always go the route of signing Gonzalez, keeping Hiura and bringing him up when he is ready, and move Gonzalez into a utility role where he slides in for whoever needs an off day or incase of injury.

Signing Gonzalez could open up a totally different avenue for the Brewers in what they do with Hiura and what they could do in a future trade to make a run at a World Series in the next few years. I’m not sure if I would go the route of trading away Hiura, but signing Gonzalez would make it an interesting option to consider.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 11:53 AM Post
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502 to Right said:
The Brewers faced 6 lefty starters in the playoffs and Schoop started only one of those games (and he went 0 for 5 in that game). I think that tells you all you need to know about his future with the Brewers. He's a turd.


Schoop career vs LHP: 693 OPS
Hernan career vs LHP: 737 OPS

All that tells us is that the Brewers understand basic splits.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 12:08 PM Post
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brewmann04 said:
I think he stays for that one year and they role the dice and try to add to the catching spot.


If they offer arbitration to Schoop ($10mm estimate) that puts the payroll at ~$112mm. Will they be able to fit an upgrade at catcher into the budget?

Sure I suppose they might be able to find a taker for Thames salary and they should pretty easily be able to find someone to take on Anderson, but then the team depth takes a hit and you're looking for reinforcements or counting on sustained success from Aguilar and putting some weight on the young pitchers to succeed and pitch a bulk of the innings in 2019.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 3:55 PM Post
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RollieTime said:
One interesting route to think about is to let Schoop go and sign Marwin Gonzalez. Gonzalez is projected to get a 4 year, $36 million contract. What if the Brewers overspent a little here to a 4 year, $50 million contract or so to outbid other teams and draw him to Milwaukee? They can cut ties with Schoop now, make Gonzalez the everyday second baseman, and can now include Hiura in a trade for an impact player. I am pretty high on Hiura, but if he could be included in a package for a TOR starter or middle of the order impact bat for a few years, it could be worth it. Especially if you have second base locked down for a few seasons.

They can always go the route of signing Gonzalez, keeping Hiura and bringing him up when he is ready, and move Gonzalez into a utility role where he slides in for whoever needs an off day or incase of injury.

Signing Gonzalez could open up a totally different avenue for the Brewers in what they do with Hiura and what they could do in a future trade to make a run at a World Series in the next few years. I’m not sure if I would go the route of trading away Hiura, but signing Gonzalez would make it an interesting option to consider.


The Brewers need to keep good pre-arby guys on the roster at all times if they want to have some higher-priced guys. Since our current pre-arby guys will be in arby within the next three years, that means that they need to promote a couple guys every year from the farm to the MLB team in order to always have pre-arby guys on the roster. To do this, they need prospects worthy of promotion.

They are a small market, and signing expensive players so that you can trade your prospects for another expensive player will quickly lead you to a rebuild.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 5:49 PM Post
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monty57 said:
The Brewers need to keep good pre-arby guys on the roster at all times if they want to have some higher-priced guys. Since our current pre-arby guys will be in arby within the next three years, that means that they need to promote a couple guys every year from the farm to the MLB team in order to always have pre-arby guys on the roster. To do this, they need prospects worthy of promotion.


Exactly. We need to see what we have in Hiura, not trade him or replace him with an expensive piece.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 7:05 PM Post
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sveumrules said:
502 to Right said:
The Brewers faced 6 lefty starters in the playoffs and Schoop started only one of those games (and he went 0 for 5 in that game). I think that tells you all you need to know about his future with the Brewers. He's a turd.


Schoop career vs LHP: 693 OPS
Hernan career vs LHP: 737 OPS

All that tells us is that the Brewers understand basic splits.


And Schoop is about 60 points better against RHP's than LHP's for his career. Assuming there is nothing physically wrong with Schoop, a Schoop/Perez platoon makes a lot more sense than paying an aging, mediocre guy about the same money you'd have to give Schoop.

Is Schoop ideal? No. But I think he's one of the better bets out there. If he had played so badly for 2.5 months for some other team and was a free agent right now, I bet a lot of people would be advocating a 1/$10m contract for him as a strong bounce-back candidate, but the sting of choking so bad for the Brewers probably changes the calculus for some people.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 7:44 PM Post
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Age is fairly meaningless. Schoop is a one year guy regardless and it’s questionable if we even need someone that long. I don’t care how old someone is if they are also a one or even a two year guy. Schoop is young, but he is also gone after the year.

I also think it doesn’t help Schoop is a 2B only guy. If he ends up getting bumped for Hiura he likely a crummy expensive bench bat. We don’t need that. Better off just rolling with someone more versatile.

He doesn’t make sense. He was absolutely terrible last year minus one week. We hated Villar because he wasn’t versatile and missed a lot...Schoop is basically the same guy with a tad more power.

Why focus on when he was trash here? We can just look at how terrible he was for the Orioles last year. He didn’t just get terrible when he got here, he was terrible in Baltimore.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 8:34 PM Post
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I hope we sign him just to watch people's heads explode.

That should probably be half blue...


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 06, 2018, 10:23 PM Post
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MrTPlush said:
Why focus on when he was trash here? We can just look at how terrible he was for the Orioles last year. He didn’t just get terrible when he got here, he was terrible in Baltimore.


In 85 games for the Orioles last year Schoop hit 244/273/447, good for a 96 OPS+ & 1.3 WAR. Sure, the OBP is ugly but league average 2B in 2018 only hit 254/317/397, so he's trading 44 points in OBP for 50 points in SLG. League average is not terrible.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 07, 2018, 6:28 AM Post
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sveumrules said:
MrTPlush said:
Why focus on when he was trash here? We can just look at how terrible he was for the Orioles last year. He didn’t just get terrible when he got here, he was terrible in Baltimore.


In 85 games for the Orioles last year Schoop hit 244/273/447, good for a 96 OPS+ & 1.3 WAR. Sure, the OBP is ugly but league average 2B in 2018 only hit 254/317/397, so he's trading 44 points in OBP for 50 points in SLG. League average is not terrible.


Like I said, ignore his one hot streak:

April: .610
May: .648
June: .516

This whole “change of scenery” causing struggle excuse is a complete lack of research and looking at the numbers. He sucked in Baltimore too. That Aug/Sept Schoop showed up almost all year.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 07, 2018, 7:00 AM Post
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I'm thinking we might be waiting a little bit for input from the new hitting coach. If he sees something he thinks he can fix, we keep him, otherwise we probably let him go. Why hire a hitting coach and then not listen to him right off the bat.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 07, 2018, 7:26 AM Post
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I will have trouble reconciling reconciling a decision to tender Schoop with the decision to non-tender Gennett (both of whom were "2B only" guys), especially considering Schoop at $10M is much more expensive and on the wrong side of the platoon split. And I totally understood the decision to non-tender Gennett at the time. Nobody knew he was going to suddenly learn to hit LHP, and he lacked the positional versatility they were seeking at the time.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 07, 2018, 8:26 AM Post
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Point Beer Is Best said:
I will have trouble reconciling reconciling a decision to tender Schoop with the decision to non-tender Gennett (both of whom were "2B only" guys), especially considering Schoop at $10M is much more expensive and on the wrong side of the platoon split. And I totally understood the decision to non-tender Gennett at the time. Nobody knew he was going to suddenly learn to hit LHP, and he lacked the positional versatility they were seeking at the time.


Gennett was basically because we decided to rush Arcia to the majors when Villar was having a career year. Villar proved to be horrible at 3B, so after his hot season he was given the starting 2B spot, leaving no room for Gennett. This obviously turned out to be a mistake, but it's not akin to the current situation.

If Huira was a year further in development, this would be a similar situation, but as it stands, we need a second baseman to start this season, as Huira will start the year at AAA. We either pay Schoop more than we probably want to in order to fill that position, or we cut him and hope we can find someone who will sign a one-year deal for a reasonable price who can hopefully be "good enough" until Huira is ready.

We're not getting a highly-sought-after guy to sign a one-year deal, so really the trade off is whether it's worth $10M to see if Schoop can be a good player, or whether we should save some money by rolling with a "stopgap" guy to bridge the gap to Huira. Secondarily, the question is whether we could find a better use for that money (is there a clear upgrade elsewhere that we could sign only if we save money by cutting Schoop).

It's definitely not a cut and dried decision, and I wouldn't be surprised if the decision is sitting on Schlesinger's desk before it gets to Stearns as it's really a payroll issue.

"The most successful (people) know that performance over the long haul is what counts. If you can seize the day, great. But never forget that there are days yet to come."

~Bill Walsh


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 07, 2018, 10:50 AM Post
Posts: 228
Location: Washburn, WI
monty57 said:
RollieTime said:
One interesting route to think about is to let Schoop go and sign Marwin Gonzalez. Gonzalez is projected to get a 4 year, $36 million contract. What if the Brewers overspent a little here to a 4 year, $50 million contract or so to outbid other teams and draw him to Milwaukee? They can cut ties with Schoop now, make Gonzalez the everyday second baseman, and can now include Hiura in a trade for an impact player. I am pretty high on Hiura, but if he could be included in a package for a TOR starter or middle of the order impact bat for a few years, it could be worth it. Especially if you have second base locked down for a few seasons.

They can always go the route of signing Gonzalez, keeping Hiura and bringing him up when he is ready, and move Gonzalez into a utility role where he slides in for whoever needs an off day or incase of injury.

Signing Gonzalez could open up a totally different avenue for the Brewers in what they do with Hiura and what they could do in a future trade to make a run at a World Series in the next few years. I’m not sure if I would go the route of trading away Hiura, but signing Gonzalez would make it an interesting option to consider.


The Brewers need to keep good pre-arby guys on the roster at all times if they want to have some higher-priced guys. Since our current pre-arby guys will be in arby within the next three years, that means that they need to promote a couple guys every year from the farm to the MLB team in order to always have pre-arby guys on the roster. To do this, they need prospects worthy of promotion.

They are a small market, and signing expensive players so that you can trade your prospects for another expensive player will quickly lead you to a rebuild.


Agreed, I think that they need to hold onto Hiura. 6 years of him is too appealing to me. He could be a staple in our lineup for a long time.


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