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Schoop news (Latest- Non-Tendered)

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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 07, 2018, 11:34 AM Post
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monty57 said:

If Huira was a year further in development, this would be a similar situation, but as it stands, we need a second baseman to start this season, as Huira will start the year at AAA. We either pay Schoop more than we probably want to in order to fill that position, or we cut him and hope we can find someone who will sign a one-year deal for a reasonable price who can hopefully be "good enough" until Huira is ready.

We're not getting a highly-sought-after guy to sign a one-year deal, so really the trade off is whether it's worth $10M to see if Schoop can be a good player, or whether we should save some money by rolling with a "stopgap" guy to bridge the gap to Huira. Secondarily, the question is whether we could find a better use for that money (is there a clear upgrade elsewhere that we could sign only if we save money by cutting Schoop).


I think we should keep in mind that playing Shaw at 2B in 2019 is probably on the table. So that the 2B position could be filled by finding a 3B for 2019.

I was highly critical of playing Shaw at 2B in 2018 but the defensive metrics (that we have access to anyway) show that Shaw wasn't terrible at 2B. He easily passed the eye test as well. If the Brewers could find a stopgap 3B for 2019 they might have their answer to 2B as well. Then any contribution by Hiura in 2019 would be icing on the cake.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 07, 2018, 11:42 AM Post
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MrTPlush said:
sveumrules said:
MrTPlush said:
Why focus on when he was trash here? We can just look at how terrible he was for the Orioles last year. He didn’t just get terrible when he got here, he was terrible in Baltimore.


In 85 games for the Orioles last year Schoop hit 244/273/447, good for a 96 OPS+ & 1.3 WAR. Sure, the OBP is ugly but league average 2B in 2018 only hit 254/317/397, so he's trading 44 points in OBP for 50 points in SLG. League average is not terrible.


Like I said, ignore his one hot streak:

April: .610
May: .648
June: .516

This whole “change of scenery” causing struggle excuse is a complete lack of research and looking at the numbers. He sucked in Baltimore too. That Aug/Sept Schoop showed up almost all year.


Schoop started the year slow. Then he strained his oblique. Maybe lingering effects contributed to his struggles in May & June? Maybe he was already feeling some discomfort at the beginning of the year before it popped and he had to DLed? Who knows?

In July he posted a 184 wRC+, 7th best in MLB. Maybe his one hot streak (that lasted an entire month) was a result of finally feeling healthy & getting his swing back? Who knows? It seems like our front office believed it was at least partially a positive indicator as I don't see them trading for anyone who they believe clearly sucked. Or was a turd.

But why focus on a bunch of small, sliced up samples & unanswerable questions in the first place? The body of work shows that Schoop is a league average second baseman, whose poor approach leads to a higher volatility in his year to year results since his offense relies almost entirely on BABIP success.

Is that worth 10 million on a one year deal to a team in Milwaukee's position on the financial financial spectrum & win curve? We'll find out eventually.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 24, 2018, 6:58 PM Post
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Nuts if we take on his big salary when he performed so poorly.
Worst looking batter against any sort of righty with mid to high 90's heat. Nice D, though, and couldn't possibly be worse at bat than what he showed last season with us, yet really this should be an easy one.
And there are a few better veteran 2B for potentially less $ on two or three year deals.
And we have Hiura in the wings.
And we have Shaw if need be...


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 24, 2018, 7:14 PM Post
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Taking a look at some of the advanced states at Baseball Reference (https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... -bat.shtml) Schoop had a BABIP that was .259 with the Brewers. In 2015, the BABIP was .329. 2016's was .305, and 2017's was .330.

His overall BABIP in 2018 (.261) was the lowest since 2014, his rookie year. Injury, adjusting to a new league, and a playoff race may have thrown Schoop off. A rebound to a BABIP in the .320 range might very well be possible.


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Online  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 24, 2018, 8:50 PM Post
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clancy, one issue is that BABIP doesn't account for Schoop seemingly rarely hitting the ball


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 24, 2018, 9:32 PM Post
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League average K%, non pitchers 2016-2018

20.6%, 21.2%, 21.7%

Jonathan Schoop K%, 2016-18

21.2%, 21.0%, 23.0%

If Schoop would have had a league average K rate in 2018 it would have meant six more balls in play.


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Online  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 24, 2018, 9:48 PM Post
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I had never heard of him until we acquired him. His 30.6% K% is what was obviously referenced, as he rarely hit the ball as a Brewer. His BABIP sucked, and that's likely a fluke. But failing to put the ball in play (aka striking out 50% more than MLB avg) AND having a low BABIP doubly explain his failure.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 24, 2018, 10:41 PM Post
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sveumrules said:
League average K%, non pitchers 2016-2018

20.6%, 21.2%, 21.7%

Jonathan Schoop K%, 2016-18

21.2%, 21.0%, 23.0%

If Schoop would have had a league average K rate in 2018 it would have meant six more balls in play.


Probably would have been 6 more GIDP. [smile]


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Online  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 25, 2018, 9:27 AM Post
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His sample size as a Brewer is all of 134 PA and 8 more in the postseason. Prior to the trade, he had spent his entire career in the Baltimore organization. It's not like he was a veteran who'd experienced being traded from a cellar dweller to a contender before. The worst thing a player in baseball can do is put extra pressure on himself and it's obvious he did. Even Machado didn't perform as well for LA (.825 OPS) as he had in Baltimore (.963 OPS).


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 25, 2018, 12:45 PM Post
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rickh150 said:
Nuts if we take on his big salary when he performed so poorly.
Worst looking batter against any sort of righty with mid to high 90's heat. Nice D, though, and couldn't possibly be worse at bat than what he showed last season with us, yet really this should be an easy one.
And there are a few better veteran 2B for potentially less $ on two or three year deals.
And we have Hiura in the wings.
And we have Shaw if need be...


The problem is they would need two or three year deals. That is a roster spot being used on someone who may only start for half a season. Using that spot on someone to play the same role as Perez or Dubon means losing a spot to protect someone on the 40 man roster next year. Or to risk losing someone who is out of options and equally valuable for less money. For me Schoop's main value is that it is only a one year commitment.

There needs to be a King Thames version of the bible.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 25, 2018, 12:52 PM Post
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Thurston Fluff said:
rickh150 said:
Nuts if we take on his big salary when he performed so poorly.
Worst looking batter against any sort of righty with mid to high 90's heat. Nice D, though, and couldn't possibly be worse at bat than what he showed last season with us, yet really this should be an easy one.
And there are a few better veteran 2B for potentially less $ on two or three year deals.
And we have Hiura in the wings.
And we have Shaw if need be...


The problem is they would need two or three year deals. That is a roster spot being used on someone who may only start for half a season. Using that spot on someone to play the same role as Perez or Dubon means losing a spot to protect someone on the 40 man roster next year. Or to risk losing someone who is out of options and equally valuable for less money. For me Schoop's main value is that it is only a one year commitment.



I wouldn't pay Schoop the money. We could do more with it- either get another 2B or use it for raises elsewhere and by time for Hiura.
Also, I'm all for someone better taking over for Perez.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 25, 2018, 4:39 PM Post
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To me it's just like they said at the end of the season. They're going to try to figure out why he was such a disaster and whether they can do anything to fix it, and then they'll make a decision. Personally I'd gladly take him at $10m if he reverts to his career averages, all things considered. No point to handing out 2-3 deals for one of the other guys who has all kinds of question marks himself.

It did look like a little more than a slump, but in recent memory we've seen young guys like Segura, Gomez, and Arcia look almost as bad before coming out of it.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 25, 2018, 8:24 PM Post
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coolhandluke121 said:
To me it's just like they said at the end of the season. They're going to try to figure out why he was such a disaster and whether they can do anything to fix it, and then they'll make a decision. Personally I'd gladly take him at $10m if he reverts to his career averages, all things considered. No point to handing out 2-3 deals for one of the other guys who has all kinds of question marks himself.

It did look like a little more than a slump, but in recent memory we've seen young guys like Segura, Gomez, and Arcia look almost as bad before coming out of it.


If he did have those injury problems earlier, he may have not only been pressing, but he also may have been less than 100%.

As I said, the BABIP was quite low when compared to his 2015-2017 numbers. I think he will rebound.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 26, 2018, 4:09 PM Post
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rickh150 said:
Thurston Fluff said:
rickh150 said:
Nuts if we take on his big salary when he performed so poorly.
Worst looking batter against any sort of righty with mid to high 90's heat. Nice D, though, and couldn't possibly be worse at bat than what he showed last season with us, yet really this should be an easy one.
And there are a few better veteran 2B for potentially less $ on two or three year deals.
And we have Hiura in the wings.
And we have Shaw if need be...


The problem is they would need two or three year deals. That is a roster spot being used on someone who may only start for half a season. Using that spot on someone to play the same role as Perez or Dubon means losing a spot to protect someone on the 40 man roster next year. Or to risk losing someone who is out of options and equally valuable for less money. For me Schoop's main value is that it is only a one year commitment.



I wouldn't pay Schoop the money. We could do more with it- either get another 2B or use it for raises elsewhere and by time for Hiura.
Also, I'm all for someone better taking over for Perez.



I don't think we could realistically do more with it. Obviously you think it is possible to pay someone of better value than Schoop or Perez for one year who would be fine with a bench role on a couple months at bench player salary but who are these people? Can you name a single guy you think would be willing to do that? Keep in mind you have to know that guy is out there before the arby tender deadline. You can't just wait out the market if you really want to make sure there isn't a black hole at second again next season. Well, you can, but I am not in favor or it for the one year $10 million it would cost. That really isn't a whole lot of money in the big picture.
Realistically I don't think anyone better than Perez is going to settle for a bench role for one year and less than $10 million. Certainly not one willing to commit before the Brewers have to make a decision on Schoop. I would be all for it if there is mind you. In theory if there was someone who was going to do that I would be happy to have him and say goodbye to Schoop. I just don't think that is something free agents of any value would go for at this point of the offseason.

There needs to be a King Thames version of the bible.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 26, 2018, 5:44 PM Post
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The money is the biggie to me. If he was getting 1 or 2 mil, maybe he would be in the mix for playing time in 2019.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 26, 2018, 6:03 PM Post
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I don't think you can get a average major league middle infielder for 1-2 million in the free agent market. If we can, I am all for it. If we can't, then we have to look at trades, be willing to trust in house help or scrap heap guys. That can be done. There are times and places to do just that. But it is a crapshoot. The time and place is more fitting for a team not in a position to win next season than one that is. Schoop isn't guaranteed to be a success, but I think his less than stellar performance with us so far has tainted our view of him somewhat. He is an average, albeit erratic, middle infielder. He would be overpaid next season in all likelihood. Normally I am against that. I do think one year overapys are sometimes worthwhile. I think this is one of those times.

There needs to be a King Thames version of the bible.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 26, 2018, 7:17 PM Post
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Thurston Fluff said:
I don't think you can get a average major league middle infielder for 1-2 million in the free agent market. If we can, I am all for it. If we can't, then we have to look at trades, be willing to trust in house help or scrap heap guys. That can be done. There are times and places to do just that. But it is a crapshoot. The time and place is more fitting for a team not in a position to win next season than one that is. Schoop isn't guaranteed to be a success, but I think his less than stellar performance with us so far has tainted our view of him somewhat. He is an average, albeit erratic, middle infielder. He would be overpaid next season in all likelihood. Normally I am against that. I do think one year overapys are sometimes worthwhile. I think this is one of those times.


Plus, if Schoop does rebound to his 2015-2017 form, then the $10 million is less of an overpay.

The ideal scenario is for Hiura to be forcing the issue, with Schoop rebounding to close to his 2017 form. Once you have that, the Brewers will have options.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 26, 2018, 7:53 PM Post
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I starting to think we keep him.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 26, 2018, 8:22 PM Post
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I'm pretty entertained that we're about to hit 160 posts in a thread about Jonathan Schoop.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
Posted: November 26, 2018, 8:40 PM Post
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Still not sure why this is a debate.... he played horribly for us. Just too much $ for a small market team, even for just one year.
Also, if we nontender him, we have options internally, with trades, and FA.


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