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Schoop news (Latest- Non-Tendered)

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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#21

Posted: October 24, 2018, 9:23 AM Post
Posts: 12426
I put a more detailed post in the rumors section, but I don't think it makes any sense to bring back Schoop or Moustakas. Neither is what we need and neither is cheap. If we want to spend money we can get a player that matches what we need (RHB good against LHP) with it in FA without much difficulty.

If either comes back it is because they don't want to hand out a multiyear deal and instead want to roll the dice on these guys.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#22

Posted: October 24, 2018, 11:07 AM Post
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MrTPlush said:
If either comes back it is because they don't want to hand out a multiyear deal and instead want to roll the dice on these guys.


With both of these guys, Schoop especially, the Hiura factor has to be considered. Barring injury or struggles at AAA, he'll be up at some point in 2019. If you're a free agent with options, why would you come to a team where you have a real chance to be benched by mid-season? Conversely, is the player who's willing to sign with Milwaukee knowing their top prospect is on the horizon at the same position likely to be better than your former All-Star?

Given Shaw's positional flexibility, I think there's a decent chance the Brewers will try to hold on to one of Schoop / Moose. Signing a stopgap to a multi-year deal would actually end up being more expensive than an additional 1-year for either player.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#23

Posted: October 24, 2018, 11:29 AM Post
Posts: 1956
tmwiese55 said:
Your Moose comparison made me remember this thing I noticed on the scoreboard during the playoff when they put OPS next to the players names. Braun by many here is talked about like this washed up overpaid bum who needs to be benched, etc. Keyword, overpaid. Whereas Moose is generally liked and many willing to pay up 15 mill for him. Note, of course I have no idea if same folks are saying both things. Just general vibes here. Braun's OPS this year was 782 and Moose was 774. They were basically tied last year too. I also know that Moose is healthier and plays 3B, just found it interesting when I noticed it on the board.


Huge difference between KC and Milwaukee in OPS. Moustakas recently set a KC record with 38 hr's. Journeymen can do that in Miller Park. That doesn't completely invalidate your point, but the years of salary and the fact that outfielders are easier to replace should make it easy to see why someone can simultaneously want Moustakas and not want Braun. Moustakas also has been healthy.


Last edited by coolhandluke121 on October 24, 2018, 11:33 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#24

Posted: October 24, 2018, 11:32 AM Post
Posts: 1956
NYChez said:
If they're going to make decisions based on a player's one career year, perhaps they should also bring back Sogard to see if he can re-live his .393 OBP magic.


If it was based on career years only, Schoop could make $25m next season and it would still be an easy choice to keep him. Sogard was terrible his whole career and then had one good year. Schoop has had multiple seasons to justify keeping him. The problem is that his most recent one was so bad, but he just turned 27 and his only other bad year was at 22.

Really it's the people saying there's no way they should keep him who are basing everything on one year.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#25

Posted: October 24, 2018, 11:34 AM Post
Posts: 4464
bjkrautk said:
MrTPlush said:
If either comes back it is because they don't want to hand out a multiyear deal and instead want to roll the dice on these guys.


With both of these guys, Schoop especially, the Hiura factor has to be considered. Barring injury or struggles at AAA, he'll be up at some point in 2019. If you're a free agent with options, why would you come to a team where you have a real chance to be benched by mid-season? Conversely, is the player who's willing to sign with Milwaukee knowing their top prospect is on the horizon at the same position likely to be better than your former All-Star?

Given Shaw's positional flexibility, I think there's a decent chance the Brewers will try to hold on to one of Schoop / Moose. Signing a stopgap to a multi-year deal would actually end up being more expensive than an additional 1-year for either player.


Bingo. Schoop brings as much as anyone willing to play the role the Brewers are offering. The other possibility is he starts to hit better and becomes trade bait next year. If we could get something out of him until either Hiura or Dubon, maybe both, are ready we could get something for him to boot.

There needs to be a King Thames version of the bible.


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Online  Re: Schoop news
#26

Posted: October 24, 2018, 11:36 AM Post
Posts: 4837
Location: Madison, WI
coolhandluke121 said:
tmwiese55 said:
Your Moose comparison made me remember this thing I noticed on the scoreboard during the playoff when they put OPS next to the players names. Braun by many here is talked about like this washed up overpaid bum who needs to be benched, etc. Keyword, overpaid. Whereas Moose is generally liked and many willing to pay up 15 mill for him. Note, of course I have no idea if same folks are saying both things. Just general vibes here. Braun's OPS this year was 782 and Moose was 774. They were basically tied last year too. I also know that Moose is healthier and plays 3B, just found it interesting when I noticed it on the board.


Huge difference between KC and Milwaukee in OPS. Moustakas recently set a KC record with 38 hr's. Journeymen can do that in Miller Park. That doesn't completely invalidate your point, but the years of salary and the fact that outfielders are easier to replace should make it easy to see why someone can simultaneously want Moustakas and not want Braun. Moustakas also has been healthy.


Yea I pointed out the quirks of it all, I know. It was just a bit of a stat that stood out due to drastic different views on the two


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#27

Posted: October 24, 2018, 11:48 AM Post
Posts: 1956
tmwiese55 said:

Yea I pointed out the quirks of it all, I know. It was just a bit of a stat that stood out due to drastic different views on the two


I think it speaks to the value of not over-committing. Braun's age and no-trade clause are a problem. There's so much value in having a chance at an all-star on a 1-year deal. That's where Schoop and Moustakas could be huge. Schoop in particular just turned 27. I think we need to be more than a few days removed from the disappointment of a few terrible months when it mattered most before we can all be totally objective there. I think he'll be a Brewer unless they can trade him for something of non-negligible value. And that's coming from one of the most vocal critics of the trade, who's hardly criticized any personnel move they've made in 2 years.


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Online  Re: Schoop news
#28

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:00 PM Post
Posts: 4837
Location: Madison, WI
I actually agree that they'll likely keep Schoop too. Anyone know when they have to decide by? I'm sure they'd like to kick the tires on other options we've discussed here like Murphy/Lowrie but there is the old bird in the hand notion of it all. I know 10 mil is a lot but it's one year whereas the others you might not be able to get on one year deals, thus some risk with their ages. The risk on Schoop is that he flopped here and is low obp to begin with. I also think they'll start exploring the trade market as soon as they opt in on him, if they do. Doubt they'll get enough to do it but I bet they start asking around right away.

Bird in the hand comes into play for both guys in that yes for 25 mil you should be able to spend it more efficiently on a Lowrie type along with having another chunk of money left to spend on bullpen, or wherever else you choose. But, you have perk of only one year commits and you have them already as opposed to playing the guessing game and not knowing where you'll end up. Especially since I'm sure we prefer not to give multi year deals, and all the FAs are going to want that. Next thing you know, you're starting Perez at 2B 90% of the games. Maybe that's extreme, but you get the point.

ETA: Dec 12 appears to be the date. So they'll have a month or so to talk to other players before deciding


Last edited by tmwiese55 on October 24, 2018, 12:14 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Online  Re: Schoop news
#29

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:12 PM Post
Posts: 5236
Location: New Berlin, WI
coolhandluke121 said:
NYChez said:
If they're going to make decisions based on a player's one career year, perhaps they should also bring back Sogard to see if he can re-live his .393 OBP magic.


If it was based on career years only, Schoop could make $25m next season and it would still be an easy choice to keep him. Sogard was terrible his whole career and then had one good year. Schoop has had multiple seasons to justify keeping him. The problem is that his most recent one was so bad, but he just turned 27 and his only other bad year was at 22.

Really it's the people saying there's no way they should keep him who are basing everything on one year.


I wouldn't keep Schoop, definitively, but not entirely because of his skill level. Couple his career worst year with Hiura's likely MLB arrival and it seems like a no brainer to NOT spend $10 million on a 2b only. Yes I know, he can sorta kinda play SS. We are much better off with a multi-position guy...and specifically one that hits left handed if he's out there. Murphy, Lowrie, Gonzalez, maybe Walker are the types of guys I'd look to and only if the price is right. Murphy and Walker are more 2b/1b types, but their bats theoretically play at 1b if they have a good year and could allow us to clear Thames. Lowrie and Gonzalez are probably too expensive unfortunately.

Back to Schoop, he's a career 258/294/444 hitter. He's ok on defense. That guy on paper is probably worth about $10 million. This club needs to find value to compete, we can't be paying sticker price for WAR. For that reason, keeping him at that price is not a good decision.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#30

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:14 PM Post
Posts: 12426
bjkrautk said:
MrTPlush said:
If either comes back it is because they don't want to hand out a multiyear deal and instead want to roll the dice on these guys.


With both of these guys, Schoop especially, the Hiura factor has to be considered. Barring injury or struggles at AAA, he'll be up at some point in 2019. If you're a free agent with options, why would you come to a team where you have a real chance to be benched by mid-season? Conversely, is the player who's willing to sign with Milwaukee knowing their top prospect is on the horizon at the same position likely to be better than your former All-Star?

Given Shaw's positional flexibility, I think there's a decent chance the Brewers will try to hold on to one of Schoop / Moose. Signing a stopgap to a multi-year deal would actually end up being more expensive than an additional 1-year for either player.


I think both are pretty terrible options for us next year. Both are marginal offensively and neither is versatile. Both have low OBPs and Moustakas pops it up so much he might as well strikeout 150+ times a season. I am pretty sure we can spend money to find a better player that at least adds some kind of value outside of average at best offense.

Yasmani Grandal gives us offense at a position that was brutal last year for the most part and Marwin Gonzalez would give similar offense, but with position versatility.

Bringing in a stop gap to HOPE Hiura can make a impact right away is borderline foolish if you ask me. He has proven nothing and his defense is not going to help the cause when he gets here. If anything we should find someone more versatile that can hold down the fort if they have to or can move around once Hiura is up to still get a big chunk of ABs elsewhere too.

If you don't want to go crazy Marwin Gonzalez might be the most logical. He can play the entire field so even if Hiura comes up and proves himself we will still get starter value out of Gonzalez...just all over the field. That is so much better of a target than Schoop/Moustakas.


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Online  Re: Schoop news
#31

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:18 PM Post
Posts: 4837
Location: Madison, WI
Bringing in a stop gap to HOPE Hiura can make a impact right away is borderline foolish if you ask me. He has proven nothing and his defense is not going to help the cause when he gets here. If anything we should find someone more versatile that can hold down the fort if they have to or can move around once Hiura is up to still get a big chunk of ABs elsewhere too.

I agree with this point, I think I've tried to make similar but this says it better. Specifically I like the idea of one who can move over to 3rd if/when needed. Then Shaw can play some 1B vs righties and Thames becomes very expendable. Clearing Thames' money really helps in affording the exact type of guys we're talking about (or well even just Moose) as well as helps with positional flex of the whole roster.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#32

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:27 PM Post
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I may have missed it, but I think everyone who has said move on from Shoop has been promoting a versatile, multi-positional infielder to replace him. Someone to man 2B until Hiura arrives and back up all over the field (including 2B) after. The Brewers desire for versatility should be an accepted fact by now.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#33

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:35 PM Post
Posts: 4194
NYChez said:
If they're going to make decisions based on a player's one career year, perhaps they should also bring back Sogard to see if he can re-live his .393 OBP magic.



This is kinda getting out of hand. We're calling all these years "career years" when talking about players who are 25, 26 or so. As in entering their prime years.

And it's not like he was a scrub before that. He hit 40 HR's and had a .765 OPS his previous two years when he was 23 and 24. So it's basically this one year that he struggled and he was really coming out of it before he was traded to the Brewers.

I'm not advocating for or against bringing Schoop back, but I remember these same comments with other guys like Segura...of course last year with Santana and this year with Aguilar.

But your post is obviously dripping in annoying sarcasm because we're comparing a 25-26 year old player to a 31 year old journeman who'd never really performed. I don't know how good Schoop is and nobody does. But with players going into their prime, they often get paid based on potential. He's proven to be a very good offensive 2nd basemen thus far in his career(all the way through the age of 26)...but his struggles make him a non-tender candidate and a guy who could sign a one year "prove it" type deal. But comparing him to Sogard is just ridiculous.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#34

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:40 PM Post
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As for Hiura's defense and thinking it's a big risk to pen him in for a big role in 2019, I just have to chuckle at that. The Brewers weren't a leader in defensive runs saved because they have gold glovers up and down the roster. They are arguably the best in MLB at defensive positioning. This is a team that successfully played zero-range, 6'4" Travis Shaw at 2B because of their well placed shifts. Hiura will be just fine defensively at 2B. And the bat is the 3rd best in the organization today behind Yelich and Cain. Some here may think it's risky to factor him in for a big role, but I'm comfortably confident that the team doesn't think it's all that risky. Risky would be moving on from an all-star at 2B to plug in Hiura and expect no dropoff. He'll be called on to fill one of the Brewers glaring weaknesses. Not much risk in that at all.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#35

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:43 PM Post
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My biggest concern about Schoop is that he’s only 27 and he struggles to get around on average fastballs enough to hit them into fair territory. I expect that from a 37 year old, not a 27 year old. This is even in obvious fastball counts. My minimum expectation from a position player (to make $1 million, let alone $10 million) is that they are able to hit a fastball in a fastball count.

With average fastball velocities increasing each year, I don’t expect this situation to get better for Schoop.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#36

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:47 PM Post
Posts: 4194
turborickey said:


Actually I was speaking about the first half of the season where he was sent down...I don't think his sporadic playing time the first half did him, or the Brewers any favors.




I absolutely agree. He looked almost Schoop-post trade like when he was getting sporadic playing time whilst trying to earn more PA's in the first half.

And how many AB's and asteriks are we gonna put on him to try and argue otherwise? His BA when he comes into a game using only his first AB? Why? Why just his first AB? And he was...like 12 for 28 or something pinch hitting tihs year. Not sure exactly, but it was like a weeks worth of regular playing time. Not EXACTLY logical to compare it to his career numbers...or use it in any argument at all IMO.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#37

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:52 PM Post
Posts: 12426
True Blue Brew Crew said:
He'll be called on to fill one of the Brewers glaring weaknesses. Not much risk in that at all.


I would agree with you if it was like mid-August when there is no other option. Right now the world is out oyster and we can improve quite easily for not too much money (or prospects). For example lets say we could get Marwin Gonzalez at 3/$24mil and he gives us an OPS+ of 115. Hiura comes up and shows some flashes, but his OPS+ is 85...that is a pretty big drop off before even considering defense. And yes defensive shifting helps, but you will not hide his poor arm and overall questionable defensive skills. Shaw has a strong arm making him pretty good on defensive shifts...that will be a long throw for Hiura out there if it isn't smoked right at him.

You can't just ignore all the potential scenarios we could do this offense and just compare Hiura to what we had last year...that's just not right.

I'm not even saying Hiura can't come up and be great. All I am saying is why not getting a better back-up plan if you are going to spend 8 figures?


Last edited by MrTPlush on October 24, 2018, 12:54 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#38

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:53 PM Post
Posts: 4194
tmwiese55 said:
Your Moose comparison made me remember this thing I noticed on the scoreboard during the playoff when they put OPS next to the players names. Braun by many here is talked about like this washed up overpaid bum who needs to be benched, etc. Keyword, overpaid. Whereas Moose is generally liked and many willing to pay up 15 mill for him. Note, of course I have no idea if same folks are saying both things. Just general vibes here. Braun's OPS this year was 782 and Moose was 774. They were basically tied last year too. I also know that Moose is healthier and plays 3B, just found it interesting when I noticed it on the board.



I'm sure the two diverged in August and Sept(even while Braun was hitting well), but Braun was in the top 4 in the league in exit velocity and several other peripherals while he was struggling to hit .250. I'm not saying I'd count on Braun to hit .320 next year, but he hit into more bad luck than any player I remember watching in the past 10 years this past year. His swing was good, he was barreling up the ball. Meanwhile....Yelly was awesome, but while Braun had a uncharacteristically low BABIP, Yellich had one WELL above the norm. I think those two will slash much closer next year...provided Braun plays about 120 games and stays healthy, always a big if, than many on here would argue. I was happy with Braun this year all things given. I'd still gladly trade him, but knowing we're gonna have to keep him through the life of his deal most likely, I liked how he looked.


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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#39

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:58 PM Post
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Given Hiura and Arcia's right-handedness, the ideal placeholder at 2B, who would then back up all over the IF, would be a LHB. I think you start there when taking a stab at who will be added to the roster this offseason. Could come via free agency or via trade. You can't allocate too much salary to said placeholder because the team has a lot of work to do to get LHP into the IOG mix next year. Thus why Schoop and Moustakas aren't realistic at their salaries, much less their difficulty making consistent contact.


Last edited by True Blue Brew Crew on October 24, 2018, 1:02 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Schoop news
#40

Posted: October 24, 2018, 12:59 PM Post
Posts: 4194
NYChez said:
My biggest concern about Schoop is that he’s only 27 and he struggles to get around on average fastballs enough to hit them into fair territory. I expect that from a 37 year old, not a 27 year old. This is even in obvious fastball counts. My minimum expectation from a position player (to make $1 million, let alone $10 million) is that they are able to hit a fastball in a fastball count.

With average fastball velocities increasing each year, I don’t expect this situation to get better for Schoop.



Schoop has ZERO problems with his bat speed. He had problem swinging at balls out of the zone, making consistent contact and everything else. But his bat speed and throwing arm are NOT area's of concern with Schoop of all people. Hell, his bat speed is probably as good as JUST about anyone elses on the team.

It's just when a pitcher can throw you a first pitch slider/curve in the dirt and get ahead of you in the count and then you're protecting, you're gonna look bad. But there is absolutely no doubt he has the talent to be a very good offensive player


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