LambeauLeap1250 WSSP


  
Go to page Previous  1, 2  [ 36 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply

What type of pitching coach will they hire?

Author Message
Online  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#21

Posted: November 08, 2018, 10:47 AM Post
Posts: 405
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Yep. I personally think all this "piggybacking" and "initial out-getter" stuff is complete and utter nonsense. This isn't a Rookie League team. If the Brewers had the horses to go 7 regularly, they would have been going 7 regularly. They didn't, and I give them credit for adjusting. But now it is looking like we may just have some horses coming up the pipeline, so maybe a little "old school" is exactly what they need.


Lol, what team has the horses to go 7 regularly? Even the big markets are lucky if they have 1. And are said horses putting up .500 to low .600 OPS against in those 5th, 6th, 7th innings? If the Brewers ever get ONE of those guys they won't be able to keep him. By limiting pitchers to 2 trips through there's a huge statistical advantage to be had. Woodruff's OPS against goes from .582 to .889 the 2ND time through. Can you imagine a team where the worst pitcher's OPS against is in the 600s? And it's cost effective for small markets as well. You can call it nonsense all you want but it's coming so you may as well get used to it.

And honestly looking at the data, the Brewers would be committing an egregious error not to go this route. Much rather to be ahead of this trend than behind.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Online  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#22

Posted: November 08, 2018, 11:04 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 5158
Location: Three Lakes, WI
True Blue Brew Crew said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Yep. I personally think all this "piggybacking" and "initial out-getter" stuff is complete and utter nonsense. This isn't a Rookie League team. If the Brewers had the horses to go 7 regularly, they would have been going 7 regularly. They didn't, and I give them credit for adjusting. But now it is looking like we may just have some horses coming up the pipeline, so maybe a little "old school" is exactly what they need.


Lol, what team has the horses to go 7 regularly? Even the big markets are lucky if they have 1. And are said horses putting up .500 to low .600 OPS against in those 5th, 6th, 7th innings? If the Brewers ever get ONE of those guys they won't be able to keep him. By limiting pitchers to 2 trips through there's a huge statistical advantage to be had. Woodruff's OPS against goes from .582 to .889 the 2ND time through. Can you imagine a team where the worst pitcher's OPS against is in the 600s? And it's cost effective for small markets as well. You can call it nonsense all you want but it's coming so you may as well get used to it.

And honestly looking at the data, the Brewers would be committing an egregious error not to go this route. Much rather to be ahead of this trend than behind.


It is a trend and the team saw success utilizing it in September and the playoffs. It is not a bad thing to have it in their back pocket come roster expansion time. I just can't see it being sustainable for a full regular season schedule without wearing the heck out of the pen.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Online  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#23

Posted: November 08, 2018, 11:05 AM Post
Posts: 9786
There aren't many starters going 7 regularly. Our problem was we had guys we couldn't even trust to go that far when their pitch count was in shape. Now it looks like we do have those kind of guys coming in. Guys where we can trust them to go 6-7 innings with more ease.

Too often we were pulling guys after 5 because if they were struggling it wasn't going to fair well after that. We need guys we can trust to pull another inning out of them if they aren't dominating through 5 innings.

Was that partially because we had such a strong pen? In some ways yes, but in other ways no.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#24

Posted: November 08, 2018, 11:44 AM Post
Posts: 123
MrTPlush said:
There aren't many starters going 7 regularly. Our problem was we had guys we couldn't even trust to go that far when their pitch count was in shape. Now it looks like we do have those kind of guys coming in. Guys where we can trust them to go 6-7 innings with more ease.

Too often we were pulling guys after 5 because if they were struggling it wasn't going to fair well after that. We need guys we can trust to pull another inning out of them if they aren't dominating through 5 innings.

Was that partially because we had such a strong pen? In some ways yes, but in other ways no.


Yep, Anderson always a risk for crippling dingers, Sutor would look great for 5 and then couldn't get an out, Davies/Miley hurt, Guerra always labors through a couple of innings, etc. Just a lot of guys who would have put stress on the pen had the schedule not worked out so well for us and Hader not been such a weapon. I am very hopeful we will turn the corner with the rotation this coming season though. This Cubs coach sounds OK.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Online  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#25

Posted: November 08, 2018, 11:47 AM Post
Posts: 405
I don't even need to prove that shortened outings from initial out getters will be sustainable because the numbers are already out there staring everyone in the face. The average starting outing is under 6 innings. Bullpens are already covering more innings than ever before. The shift isn't from shortening starters, that's already happened. The real shift is lengthening the stints of your relievers. What's funny is that everyone's focus is on the starters. The transition for the Brewers has everything to do with getting away from guys who are only good for 1-2 innings. That's what's going to take some time. You can't just cast off Jeffress and Knebel. They actually have the arms to piggyback and tandem NOW. The future 12-man staff is made up of a dozen pitchers who are all geared to go at least 3 innings. Your best guys will go 4-5 with the rare 6 and be supplemented with guys who regularly go 3-4 with the rare 2. Eliminate the 1 out and 1 inning guys and you have more than enough coverage.

9 x 162 = 1458 innings

If by some miracle a team uses the same 12 pitchers all year, that workload spread out is 121.5 innings per pitcher. Giving more innings to your best guys, say 150 innings, and less to the guys who are only effective once through, say 90 innings, is not only sustainable, it's extremely efficient and practical. And that's without even dipping beyond the initial 12 man staff, which of course the team will. Sustainability over the course of a full season is a complete non issue. This model is actually easier on pitcher's arms.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Online  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#26

Posted: November 08, 2018, 11:54 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 5158
Location: Three Lakes, WI
True Blue Brew Crew said:
I don't even need to prove that shortened outings from initial out getters will be sustainable because the numbers are already out there staring everyone in the face. The average starting outing is under 6 innings. Bullpens are already covering more innings than ever before. The shift isn't from shortening starters, that's already happened. The real shift is lengthening the stints of your relievers. What's funny is that everyone's focus is on the starters. The transition for the Brewers has everything to do with getting away from guys who are only good for 1-2 innings. That's what's going to take some time. You can't just cast off Jeffress and Knebel. They actually have the arms to piggyback and tandem NOW. The future 12-man staff is made up of a dozen pitchers who are all geared to go at least 3 innings. Your best guys will go 4-5 with the rare 6 and be supplemented with guys who regularly go 3-4 with the rare 2. Eliminate the 1 out and 1 inning guys and you have more than enough coverage.

9 x 162 = 1458 innings

If by some miracle a team uses the same 12 pitchers all year, that workload spread out is 121.5 innings per pitcher. Giving more innings to your best guys, say 150 innings, and less to the guys who are only effective once through, say 90 innings, is not only sustainable, it's extremely efficient and practical. And that's without even dipping beyond the initial 12 man staff, which of course the team will. Sustainability over the course of a full season is a complete non issue. This model is actually easier on pitcher's arms.


But then you have the issue of statistics suffering for these guys, and when salaries (both arbitration and free agent contracts) are largely driven by statistics, I foresee if being extremely difficult getting those guys to buy in. You didn't hear much harping out of the team last year because the plan was being utilized in the middle of a playoff push, and it was effective, but if you try to utilize it over the course of a season, I fear that it just isn't going to be sustainable long-term, until the majority of other teams, and MLB as a whole, buy in and revamp the arbitration salary structure and how they value free agent hurlers. Is that possible? Maybe ... but given how long it takes MLB to evolve even a little bit, it is likely going to take multiple years, if not decades.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Online  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#27

Posted: November 08, 2018, 12:04 PM Post
Posts: 405
100 pitches once every 5 days is an absurdly unnatural physiological use of muscles and tendons. If you need 4 days off to recover from the taxation you've put on a body part, you're overdoing things. Think about bodybulding and exercise. Shorter bursts that require 1-3 days rest before once again working the same muscle group is much more natural. Maxed 60 pitch outings followed by 2-3 days rest max are not only more natural for the body, they're statistically advantageous for pitchers vs hitters. Not only from the standpoint of lessened consecutive exposures to a batter, but the ability to win match-ups with your 2 best pitches and not having to utilize a weaker 3rd or 4th.

Rather than the different look coming from a pitcher's weak 3rd and 4th offerings, the different look comes from a fresh arm throwing his 1-2 best pitches. Huge advantage to pitchers.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Online  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#28

Posted: November 08, 2018, 12:12 PM Post
Posts: 405
When there are 1 inning guys like Soria making $10 million per, it's clear that it won't be difficult at all for the money to be spread more evenly through a pitching staff. A guy like Hader is going to get paid because the stats and common sense say he's more valuable than a 1 inning set-up guy. The most money always goes to the best guys.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Online  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#29

Posted: November 08, 2018, 12:59 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 5158
Location: Three Lakes, WI
True Blue Brew Crew said:
When there are 1 inning guys like Soria making $10 million per, it's clear that it won't be difficult at all for the money to be spread more evenly through a pitching staff. A guy like Hader is going to get paid because the stats and common sense say he's more valuable than a 1 inning set-up guy. The most money always goes to the best guys.


Soria makes big bucks because he has a ton of closer experience and gets saves. That's the way salaries typically work in MLB. The guys that ring up the stats get the money. Which means the guys who prove to be the best middle relievers aren't typically middle relievers for long before they are moved to the closer's role. Is that an antiquated mindset? maybe. But it is what it is. These guys care about team success, but they also care about personal stats. A piggybacking starter isn't going to rack up the wins and innings they will typically need to garner big money in both arbitration and free agency.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#30

Posted: November 08, 2018, 1:06 PM Post
User avatar
Global Moderator
Posts: 9192
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
True Blue Brew Crew said:
When there are 1 inning guys like Soria making $10 million per, it's clear that it won't be difficult at all for the money to be spread more evenly through a pitching staff. A guy like Hader is going to get paid because the stats and common sense say he's more valuable than a 1 inning set-up guy. The most money always goes to the best guys.


Soria makes big bucks because he has a ton of closer experience and gets saves. That's the way salaries typically work in MLB. The guys that ring up the stats get the money. Which means the guys who prove to be the best middle relievers aren't typically middle relievers for long before they are moved to the closer's role. Is that an antiquated mindset? maybe. But it is what it is. These guys care about team success, but they also care about personal stats. A piggybacking starter isn't going to rack up the wins and innings they will typically need to garner big money in both arbitration and free agency.


Bullpen guys in general are making more money. Not just save guys. Rockies just gave Jake McGee $27 million over three years. The game is changing, hence, contracts will change with it.Don't think for a second that Hader won't command a ton of dough even if he's never primary closer.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#31

Posted: November 08, 2018, 1:32 PM Post
Posts: 36
JohnBriggs12 said:
Walleye2 said:
JohnBriggs12 said:
There's reports circulating in the Chicago media that Jim Hickey is out as Cubs pitching coach.

Hickey's got a long successful track record. Brewers could do a lot worse. As coaches go, he won't be cheap.

Not saying he would be a bad choice, however isn’t he extremely old school ? Does he fit what our GM is looking for with his analects based coaching concepts?


Huh? The Cubs got nothing out of Darvish and Chatwood, lost their closer for the last 2 1/2 months, and still had the 2nd best ERA in the NL and won 95 games despite their offense scoring 0 or 1 run in more games than any team in the NL. Pitching is pitching.

Again I agree with you ....but will our GM ? He seems stuck on analects and I think that may show in who he hires.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#32

Posted: November 08, 2018, 2:38 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 9260
I am sorry but DS has to be open to hiring the best coach no matter if old school or not


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Online  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#33

Posted: November 08, 2018, 7:01 PM Post
Posts: 405
homer said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Soria makes big bucks because he has a ton of closer experience and gets saves. That's the way salaries typically work in MLB. The guys that ring up the stats get the money. Which means the guys who prove to be the best middle relievers aren't typically middle relievers for long before they are moved to the closer's role. Is that an antiquated mindset? maybe. But it is what it is. These guys care about team success, but they also care about personal stats. A piggybacking starter isn't going to rack up the wins and innings they will typically need to garner big money in both arbitration and free agency.


Bullpen guys in general are making more money. Not just save guys. Rockies just gave Jake McGee $27 million over three years. The game is changing, hence, contracts will change with it.Don't think for a second that Hader won't command a ton of dough even if he's never primary closer.


Exactly. The money will get spent, just spread differently.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#34

Posted: November 08, 2018, 7:42 PM Post
Posts: 36
brewmann04 said:
I am sorry but DS has to be open to hiring the best coach no matter if old school or not
the answer to that is subjective at best lol


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#35

Posted: November 08, 2018, 8:30 PM Post
User avatar
Global Moderator
Posts: 6687
They want a coach who gets up early
A coach who stays up late
A coach with uninterrupted prosperity
Who uses a machete, to cut through red tape

With fingernails that shine like justice
And a voice that is dark like tinted glass
A coach who is fast, thorough, and sharp as a tack
A coach who tours the facilities and picks up slack


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: What type of pitching coach will they hire?
#36

Posted: November 10, 2018, 8:47 AM Post
Posts: 2780
reillymcshane said:
They want a coach who gets up early
A coach who stays up late
A coach with uninterrupted prosperity
Who uses a machete, to cut through red tape

With fingernails that shine like justice
And a voice that is dark like tinted glass
A coach who is fast, thorough, and sharp as a tack
A coach who tours the facilities and picks up slack

A coach who wears a short skirt and a loooooong jacket? Now that would be groundbreaking!


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Go to page Previous  1, 2  [ 36 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply
  



You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search this forum (phpBB search):
Jump to:  
Search entire board (Google search):
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Test