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Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE

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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 23, 2018, 4:42 PM Post
Posts: 3680
rickh150 said:
Noche said:
I have always liked Gamel. His age 25 season with Seattle has some similar qualities to Charlie Blackmon’s age 25 season. Some similar Minor league performance too though Gamel was not as impressive. Perhaps not huge home run numbers, but Gamel seems a decent bet for a .350 OBP and 40-50 XBH’s with regular playing time. Brewers likely expect him to breakout.


Who is playing in the OF vs lefties?


Braun, Yelich, Cain. Perez when Braun is hurt.

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 23, 2018, 7:58 PM Post
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Nori Aoki is who I have in my mind for Gamel. Hopefully his numbers get a nice little boost from playing in our ballpark. Side note I think I was the first person to by his brother's shirsey in 2009. I definitely thought he was going to complete the young core. I am a sucker for left handed hitting third basemen with pop.

I remember last year at this time thinking Brett Phillips was going to be our 4th outfielder with Braun's laundry list of injuries. I think our front office thought the same of Brett back then up until the day they traded him, which is why I am surprised we never acquired a player like Gamel last year to spare Braun and Cain (obviously playing Yelich in center when Cain sits).

I think Domingo will put up respectable numbers in the AL DHing and playing in the outfield sparingly, which is why I wish the DH came to the National League. It is too bad that he doesn't have more value then Gamel and a recent mid round draft pick but I don't think his market was totally different last year (see Corey Dickerson trade).


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 23, 2018, 8:31 PM Post
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SRB said:
TooLiveBrew said:
I think a much more plausible argument is that Stearns leapt at the rare opportunity to add Yelich & Cain when he had the chance, with the plan to be able to flip Santana for a good young SP. I think he expected to be in the driver's seat & have an A+ offseason. Obviously he didn't find the return he was hoping for on Santana, which sucks.

I agree with the sentiment that the OF crunch affected Domingo's confidence last season much moreso than his 2017 was a fluke (or that Stearns thought it was a fluke). I think he will return to his 2017 form, & aside from defense, Seattle will be happy they added him.

Gamel is a good fit for our roster, and I always like adding OBP-heavy LH bats. If Zavolas becomes a MLB contributor, this trade could wind up looking quite nice in hindsight.


Sure, but none of this is plausible unless Stearns did not believe in Santana being a cheap mid-20s All Star caliber OF like he was in 2017. You don't add Yelich and Cain if you believe in Santana.

I disagree. I think he jumped at Yelich & Cain because players like that aren't usually available & affordable for the Brewers. I think Stearns was confident he could get a nice young SP for Santana, & all the stars would align for a perfect offseason.

I believe (& yes, this is admittedly just my own hunch) the reason we got 'stuck' with Santana out of last offseason is precisely because Stearns was still very high on his bat. He didn't get an offer he felt was fair for Domingo, so he didn't sell for the sake of selling. Then Domingo struggled with the part-time role ( [sad] )

Stearns Brewing Co.: Sustainability from farm to plate


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 23, 2018, 11:44 PM Post
Posts: 2661
coolhandluke121 said:
MNBrew said:


I buy a bit of the discussion on some of the guys you're saying Braun's being on the roster cost chances to, but to put Choi into the discussion significantly discredits your whole POV in my opinion. Choi's a backup 1B at best with 121 MLB games over 3 years and who's been mostly a 25th man on a roster at best, having a hard time staying on the right side of the roster bubble. Braun had a down year last year but much of that was due to just plain bad luck and Braun's 2nd-half OPS puts any "we would've been better off keeping/playing Choi than Braun" notion down the drain.

Choi wasn't anything near good in MIL. His bat touched the ball in exactly half his AB's -- 14 K's in 30 AB's w/ 2 walks in addition to his very non-intriguing slash line. Yes, 4 of his 7 hits were for extra bases, but nearly half the time he couldn't even hit the ball. He showed basically nothing to deserve to be kept in the plans when Brad Miller, who had shown more promise, became available. The Brewers' decision making was highly defensible based on Choi's lousy production and Miller's previous MLB track record (Miller's 2016 was not outrageously far off from Schoop's 2017 -- the 50-point BA difference, thus OBP difference, was about the same net difference in OPS).

On top of that, Choi is NOT a viable MLB corner OF like you assert he is. 20 of his 21 MLB games appearing in the OF were in 2016. In the past two years, he played the OF in the majors exactly once. I don't have much attachment to Thames but he was a far better OF option than Choi. According to baseball-reference.com, Choi's dWAR last year was negative, and that's with virtually all his PT coming at 1B. . . . Thames, though nothing noteworthy (and not too bad) defensively, is decent enough in the OF to have played over half his 415 career MLB games there -- and neither Thames nor Choi deserves playing time in an MLB OF at the expense of Ryan Braun.

Overall it took a half-decent 190 ABs in Tampa this past year and a 1.1 WAR to elevate his career WAR to 0.6 -- only one year in three where he rated as good as a replacement-level player.


Fine. Then Choi is the LHB 1B and Thames PH's and plays some RF against RHP's. The point remains that literally every single one of them would have been better options than Braun when you factor in salary, trade value, availability, and/or flexibility. All things considered, he would literally be the last one I would choose for a roster spot for, behind Santana, Broxton, Choi, Davis (for trade value), Aguilar (nearly cut in ST so Braun could move to 1B), and probably Thames. Basically all those guys have been pushed to the back burner in way or another for him in recent years. It's asinine. And no, you don't have to hate him like I do to understand the economics of it or the productivity/injury issues. On the contrary, I think you have to be biased in favor of him to deny it.

I get what you're saying but just don't see it the same way. We just disagree and that's alright.

But seriously, Choi sucked in MIL and gave the Brewers little reason to believe he'd do what he ended up doing for Tampa. If you saw his Tampa productivity coming, you may be about the only one. If he just needed more PT to get his bat going in the bigs again, that opportunity wasn't going to come in MIL unless about everyone in front of him went in a major slump and/or got hurt since he was the 25th guy on the roster and was only there until someone better came along to take his place, and that didn't happen.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 24, 2018, 7:31 AM Post
Posts: 4448
MNBrew said:
coolhandluke121 said:
MNBrew said:


I buy a bit of the discussion on some of the guys you're saying Braun's being on the roster cost chances to, but to put Choi into the discussion significantly discredits your whole POV in my opinion. Choi's a backup 1B at best with 121 MLB games over 3 years and who's been mostly a 25th man on a roster at best, having a hard time staying on the right side of the roster bubble. Braun had a down year last year but much of that was due to just plain bad luck and Braun's 2nd-half OPS puts any "we would've been better off keeping/playing Choi than Braun" notion down the drain.

Choi wasn't anything near good in MIL. His bat touched the ball in exactly half his AB's -- 14 K's in 30 AB's w/ 2 walks in addition to his very non-intriguing slash line. Yes, 4 of his 7 hits were for extra bases, but nearly half the time he couldn't even hit the ball. He showed basically nothing to deserve to be kept in the plans when Brad Miller, who had shown more promise, became available. The Brewers' decision making was highly defensible based on Choi's lousy production and Miller's previous MLB track record (Miller's 2016 was not outrageously far off from Schoop's 2017 -- the 50-point BA difference, thus OBP difference, was about the same net difference in OPS).

On top of that, Choi is NOT a viable MLB corner OF like you assert he is. 20 of his 21 MLB games appearing in the OF were in 2016. In the past two years, he played the OF in the majors exactly once. I don't have much attachment to Thames but he was a far better OF option than Choi. According to baseball-reference.com, Choi's dWAR last year was negative, and that's with virtually all his PT coming at 1B. . . . Thames, though nothing noteworthy (and not too bad) defensively, is decent enough in the OF to have played over half his 415 career MLB games there -- and neither Thames nor Choi deserves playing time in an MLB OF at the expense of Ryan Braun.

Overall it took a half-decent 190 ABs in Tampa this past year and a 1.1 WAR to elevate his career WAR to 0.6 -- only one year in three where he rated as good as a replacement-level player.


Fine. Then Choi is the LHB 1B and Thames PH's and plays some RF against RHP's. The point remains that literally every single one of them would have been better options than Braun when you factor in salary, trade value, availability, and/or flexibility. All things considered, he would literally be the last one I would choose for a roster spot for, behind Santana, Broxton, Choi, Davis (for trade value), Aguilar (nearly cut in ST so Braun could move to 1B), and probably Thames. Basically all those guys have been pushed to the back burner in way or another for him in recent years. It's asinine. And no, you don't have to hate him like I do to understand the economics of it or the productivity/injury issues. On the contrary, I think you have to be biased in favor of him to deny it.

I get what you're saying but just don't see it the same way. We just disagree and that's alright.

But seriously, Choi sucked in MIL and gave the Brewers little reason to believe he'd do what he ended up doing for Tampa. If you saw his Tampa productivity coming, you may be about the only one. If he just needed more PT to get his bat going in the bigs again, that opportunity wasn't going to come in MIL unless about everyone in front of him went in a major slump and/or got hurt since he was the 25th guy on the roster and was only there until someone better came along to take his place, and that didn't happen.


He was the 25th man on the roster, but a .781 OPS and a 104 OPS+ kinda disputes the notion he sucked.

Aguilar, Thames, and Shaw were ahead of him at 1B. Santana, Braun, Yelich, and Thames were ahead of him at corner OF.

Brad Miller didn't work out for the Crew, but Choi was decent and caught on the outside of a roster crunch. Every GM with two functioning neurons knew it.

If Miller had performed just at the level he'd performed at while in Tampa during 2018 (.751 OPS, 107 OPS+) and held down shortstop after Arcia was stinking up the joint, I think the tune would have been different.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 24, 2018, 9:33 AM Post
Posts: 155
MNBrew said:
Choi sucked in MIL

The guy played in all of 12 games with Milwaukee and had just 32 PAs. Talk about a small sample size. Even with that, he had 2 doubles, 2 homers, slugged .500, and drove in 5 runs. Wish all our guys sucked that much.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 24, 2018, 10:49 AM Post
Posts: 4402
Noche said:
I have always liked Gamel. His age 25 season with Seattle has some similar qualities to Charlie Blackmon’s age 25 season. Some similar Minor league performance too though Gamel was not as impressive. Perhaps not huge home run numbers, but Gamel seems a decent bet for a .350 OBP and 40-50 XBH’s with regular playing time. Brewers likely expect him to breakout.


The problem is he probably isn't going to get regular playing time next season. There is a legitimate argument to use Thames over him at least some of the time. If Gamel played center field it would help but he doesn't so that isn't helping. The only other place he can play is first but the same problem arises there with Aguilar and Thames. Which is why I think his value is tied to 2020 and beyond barring injury.

There needs to be a King Thames version of the bible.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 24, 2018, 11:21 AM Post
Posts: 4827
Location: New Berlin, WI
cesser000 said:
MNBrew said:
Choi sucked in MIL

The guy played in all of 12 games with Milwaukee and had just 32 PAs. Talk about a small sample size. Even with that, he had 2 doubles, 2 homers, slugged .500, and drove in 5 runs. Wish all our guys sucked that much.


Im with this guy on choi, he was in aaa most of his time with us and was an absolute monster im spring training. Going into the season, we had yelich, braun, santana, thames, aguilar, and choi vying for time in 3 spots. Heck choi was so impressive in spring that he almost took aguilars roster spot. Choi did not suck in his time with us and that's not up for debate


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 24, 2018, 12:47 PM Post
Posts: 1950
3and2Fastball said:
rickh150 said:
Noche said:
I have always liked Gamel. His age 25 season with Seattle has some similar qualities to Charlie Blackmon’s age 25 season. Some similar Minor league performance too though Gamel was not as impressive. Perhaps not huge home run numbers, but Gamel seems a decent bet for a .350 OBP and 40-50 XBH’s with regular playing time. Brewers likely expect him to breakout.


Who is playing in the OF vs lefties?


Braun, Yelich, Cain. Perez when Braun is hurt.


Is Broxton on this team?


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 24, 2018, 2:14 PM Post
Posts: 1104
Location: Ohio
rickh150 said:
Is Broxton on this team?


Keon is out of options so he is either with the Brewers or with another organization...


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 24, 2018, 7:36 PM Post
Posts: 345
NONE of the players you mentioned (Choi-Thames-Davis-Broxton-or Santana) is a better player or better for the Brewers than Braun. Choi and Thames are 1B only types who whiff far more than average. Both are terrible OFs and basically a waste of a spot. Broxton is a great defender who also Ks 40% of his ABs and near worthless in critical situations. Santana was a below average OF who had some power, but couldn't get on base until late in the year. Davis was the worst OF in MLB history and strictly a DH. No value to the Brewers except as a once-a-game PH. I do agree Braun eats up a lot of money and the Brewers would love to dump his contract, but none of the others would even be considered as a replacement if they actually could trade Braun.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 24, 2018, 8:49 PM Post
Posts: 2661
KeithStone53151 said:
cesser000 said:
MNBrew said:
Choi sucked in MIL

The guy played in all of 12 games with Milwaukee and had just 32 PAs. Talk about a small sample size. Even with that, he had 2 doubles, 2 homers, slugged .500, and drove in 5 runs. Wish all our guys sucked that much.


Im with this guy on choi, he was in aaa most of his time with us and was an absolute monster im spring training. Going into the season, we had yelich, braun, santana, thames, aguilar, and choi vying for time in 3 spots. Heck choi was so impressive in spring that he almost took aguilars roster spot. Choi did not suck in his time with us and that's not up for debate

Small sample, sure. That works for both sides of the argument. Cumulatively he still wasn't good enough. Choi had 4 XBH in 32 PAs. That's respectable. But SLG propped up his OPS. Otherwise he had 3 singles, 2 walks, 14 K's, and 9 outs putting the ball in play for an overall .281 OBP -- an identical figure to Keon Broxton, just worse than Hernan Perez -- and with a K rate well worse than either of those two AND Eric Thames. In other words, when it wasn't one of his 2 2Bs and 2 HRs, Choi's success rate at the plate was really, really bad. And the Brewers already had too many high-K/low-OBP guys as it was.

Stearns and Co. were willing to give Choi up for a chance that Brad Miller might hit remotely like he'd done before AND solve their woes at 2B -- neither of which happened, as we know. And to Choi's credit, he got better opportunities in Tampa (not his first chance at greater MLB PT) and ended up with his most productive MLB output over the balance of the year. I like that he was successful there. If he'd produced like that in his limited time in MIL (and if we didn't have Thames, Aguilar, and at the time Braun ahead of him on the 1B depth chart), we may have traded someone else for Brad Miller instead.

By all accounts Choi is a good dude, but he just didn't get it done enough in MIL. We've had lots of guys tear up ST and mash in AAA and not contribute enough in MIL to be kept around terribly long. Choi is far from the first and far from the last.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 24, 2018, 10:17 PM Post
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MadThinker88 said:
rickh150 said:
Is Broxton on this team?


Keon is out of options so he is either with the Brewers or with another organization...


Keon will make the 25 man out of ST. Gamel will not.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 24, 2018, 10:33 PM Post
Posts: 155
MNBrew said:
Small sample, sure. That works for both sides of the argument. Cumulatively he still wasn't good enough.

Without Choi's extra-inning pinch-hit, game-winning double against the Padres in the opening game of the season, we don't win the division. That alone elevates him above 'suck-i-tude'.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 25, 2018, 11:22 AM Post
Posts: 4402
wntrtxn21 said:
NONE of the players you mentioned (Choi-Thames-Davis-Broxton-or Santana) is a better player or better for the Brewers than Braun. Choi and Thames are 1B only types who whiff far more than average. Both are terrible OFs and basically a waste of a spot. Broxton is a great defender who also Ks 40% of his ABs and near worthless in critical situations. Santana was a below average OF who had some power, but couldn't get on base until late in the year. Davis was the worst OF in MLB history and strictly a DH. No value to the Brewers except as a once-a-game PH. I do agree Braun eats up a lot of money and the Brewers would love to dump his contract, but none of the others would even be considered as a replacement if they actually could trade Braun.



While Thames may not have passed the eye test he actually rated far better than terrible in as an outfielder in defensive metrics. He certainly is not a waste of a spot. Saying things like terrible, no value, a waste of a spot and the worst in MLB history is hardly ever accurate. Saying Yuni B was the worst first base option ever being the one possible exception. [laughing]

There needs to be a King Thames version of the bible.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 25, 2018, 1:28 PM Post
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Posts: 9957
502 to Right said:
MadThinker88 said:
rickh150 said:
Is Broxton on this team?


Keon is out of options so he is either with the Brewers or with another organization...


Keon will make the 25 man out of ST. Gamel will not.


Gamel will make the 25 man out of ST. Keon will not.

See how this game works?

[tongue]


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 25, 2018, 2:57 PM Post
Posts: 1950
Broxton and Santana for Gamel, then?


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 25, 2018, 4:44 PM Post
Posts: 7932
Thurston Fluff said:
wntrtxn21 said:
NONE of the players you mentioned (Choi-Thames-Davis-Broxton-or Santana) is a better player or better for the Brewers than Braun. Choi and Thames are 1B only types who whiff far more than average. Both are terrible OFs and basically a waste of a spot. Broxton is a great defender who also Ks 40% of his ABs and near worthless in critical situations. Santana was a below average OF who had some power, but couldn't get on base until late in the year. Davis was the worst OF in MLB history and strictly a DH. No value to the Brewers except as a once-a-game PH. I do agree Braun eats up a lot of money and the Brewers would love to dump his contract, but none of the others would even be considered as a replacement if they actually could trade Braun.



While Thames may not have passed the eye test he actually rated far better than terrible in as an outfielder in defensive metrics. He certainly is not a waste of a spot. Saying things like terrible, no value, a waste of a spot and the worst in MLB history is hardly ever accurate. Saying Yuni B was the worst first base option ever being the one possible exception. [laughing]



He also is relatively quick on the bases. He looks stiff in the field though


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 26, 2018, 12:25 AM Post
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The Weatherman
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Both are 4th/platoon outfielders with some upside. So it basically comes down to which is more likely: Domingo Santana learns plate discipline or Ben Gamel learns how to hit for power?

The 2018 Brewers has plenty of power and a serious lack of plate discipline. When you throw in Gamel’s option the trade was a no-brainer.

Broxton is a quintessential 4-A player who is nice to have around for his glove but has no business facing MLB pitching and has already used up his opportunities to figure it out, at least in a Brewers uniform. I wish him the best wherever he ends up.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: December 26, 2018, 1:11 AM Post
Posts: 841
Location: Oshkosh
Thurston Fluff said:
wntrtxn21 said:
NONE of the players you mentioned (Choi-Thames-Davis-Broxton-or Santana) is a better player or better for the Brewers than Braun. Choi and Thames are 1B only types who whiff far more than average. Both are terrible OFs and basically a waste of a spot. Broxton is a great defender who also Ks 40% of his ABs and near worthless in critical situations. Santana was a below average OF who had some power, but couldn't get on base until late in the year. Davis was the worst OF in MLB history and strictly a DH. No value to the Brewers except as a once-a-game PH. I do agree Braun eats up a lot of money and the Brewers would love to dump his contract, but none of the others would even be considered as a replacement if they actually could trade Braun.



While Thames may not have passed the eye test he actually rated far better than terrible in as an outfielder in defensive metrics. He certainly is not a waste of a spot. Saying things like terrible, no value, a waste of a spot and the worst in MLB history is hardly ever accurate. Saying Yuni B was the worst first base option ever being the one possible exception. [laughing]


Defensive metrics mean nothing for an outfielder on that small of a sample size.


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