LambeauLeap1250 WSSP


  
Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next  [ 351 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply

Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE

Author Message
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 24, 2019, 7:59 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1894
Location: At the gettin' place
jerichoholicninja said:
Santana has a grand total of ZERO appearances as a DH this year. I'm not sure exactly what that means but I feel it is totally relevant to this discussion.


That means the Mariners had, until last week, Vogelbach, and Encarnacion at 1b. Plus Jay Bruce for a good part of the year. My god what an abomination of a roster defensively.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 24, 2019, 8:05 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 10234
MrTPlush said:
Why does his defense make him a liability instantly? Being poor in the OF is a lot different than sucking in the infield. While I don’t think anyone can sleep on the importance of good OF defense it doesn’t have a huge overall impact in the grand scheme.

As a 130 OPS+ player he can be poor on defense. Everyone thinks Moustakas is just mashing it with the bat and Santana isn’t too far off that offensively.

I guess I always find it interesting defense can carry you, but offense can’t.


Santana's defense certainly doesn't erase his value as an offensive performer, but it certainly helps temper it. He'd hold more value strictly as a DH ... which is likely his future role, as his defense isn't going to improve at this point.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 24, 2019, 10:03 AM Post
Posts: 5112
As a 130 OPS+ player he can be poor on defense. Everyone thinks Moustakas is just mashing it with the bat and Santana isn’t too far off that offensively.

Moose is OPS-ing mid 900's, while Santana is roughly 100 OPS points behind him primarily due to slugging, so yes, Moose is mashing compared to Santana. Plus, Moose plays two infield defensive positions well along with being capable of playing 1B if necessary. Moose has accumulated 3 WAR thus far in 2019, while Domingo is at just 1.0 WAR despite his offensive production. Why? Santana has no defensive positional flexibility - if he plays everyday you have to stick him in a corner OF spot and hope he doesn't get the ball hit to him if you are an NL team. It's really difficult to be that bad defensively in the OF to severely impact your value as a player when you put up really good offensive numbers - but Domingo has found a way!

Until Santana is a fulltime DH, he's a marginally good player stuck in a corner OF position.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 24, 2019, 11:24 AM Post
User avatar
Global Moderator
Posts: 9011
MrTPlush said:
Why does his defense make him a liability instantly? Being poor in the OF is a lot different than sucking in the infield. While I don’t think anyone can sleep on the importance of good OF defense it doesn’t have a huge overall impact in the grand scheme.

As a 130 OPS+ player he can be poor on defense.


But he's truly been sooo poor on defense that it has eroded HALF of his offensive value. I agree that it's not typically significant enough to be a huge issue, but guys like him and Khrush are so bad it truly does matter, and a LOT. It's extraordinarily telling that despite Domingo's counting stats, Gamel has had half the value as Domingo despite half the playing time.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 24, 2019, 11:46 AM Post
Posts: 1105
Yeah Santana is the rare breed who's so bad on defense that despite a 130 wRC+ he's at best (Depending on which defensive metric you rely on) on pace to be a league average regular. Which still makes him a pretty good and useful player, but nothing really special. And yeah, it's a bit early to take defensive metrics as gospel. But in this case, unusually enough DRS, UZR and FRAA are all in agreement that he's been one of, if not the, worst players on defense this year. And he has several years worth of awful defensive metrics, the 400 innings last year were the exception and that's too short a stretch to really read anything into. Errors aren't a good stat, but with 9 errors Santana would be T-10th for most errors by an outfield. Not an outfielder, a whole team's outfield. Brewers OF have 5 errors combined. And then there's the eye test which in this case confirms all of the above.

But yes, even with all that Santana might very well be the better player overall. But there's this to consider: Gamel has a minor league option, he hits left handed, he has an extra year of team control, he's cheaper and he can play center field and can thus be a proper 4th OF. And then there's Zavolas; who knows if he has the stuff to ever make it, but so far as a pro he's done as well as you could've asked, including a CGSO yesterday, allowing only 2 base runners. Brewers basically had to trade him (Or eat $30m+ of Braun's salary for nothing. Or have a seriously unbalanced and inflexible roster), and everyone knew it. And they still got a solid return, with a player who suited the roster better.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 25, 2019, 11:21 PM Post
Posts: 1392
Ok, if you watched the Brewers game tonight, then you can't say that you watched Santana and never noticed his defense being that bad! That was a comically bad play. I really don't know what he did. It was a LD to right-center and he ran in on it and not over far enough and ended up nowhere near the ball!


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 25, 2019, 11:55 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 18867
OnTheBlack said:
Ok, if you watched the Brewers game tonight, then you can't say that you watched Santana and never noticed his defense being that bad! That was a comically bad play. I really don't know what he did. It was a LD to right-center and he ran in on it and not over far enough and ended up nowhere near the ball!


As much as you guys complain about treego going over the top in his love for Santana, there are a ton of guys going over the top trying to point out every flaw. He didn't go back, he went sideways and then back almost immediately and didn't get near the ball because it left the bat on a line at 107 mph with an expected batting average of .680.

Image

Cards' fans wear jorts.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 26, 2019, 5:48 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 620
Location: Chicago
There’s nothing wrong with Santana, he’s a solid young player.

This GM likes versatile outfielders who can play all three spots, runs well and tends to make contact. Santana doesn’t fit that mold so they traded him off for Gamel who may not have the power Santana has but plays all three spots, runs well and makes contact. Plus they got a pitcher who is a long ways away but has a legit shot of seeing a 25 man roster. Fair trade for both teams


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 26, 2019, 6:16 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 10234
Jopal78! said:
There’s nothing wrong with Santana, he’s a solid young player.

This GM likes versatile outfielders who can play all three spots, runs well and tends to make contact. Santana doesn’t fit that mold so they traded him off for Gamel who may not have the power Santana has but plays all three spots, runs well and makes contact. Plus they got a pitcher who is a long ways away but has a legit shot of seeing a 25 man roster. Fair trade for both teams


This is about as fair and impartial of an opinion on this deal as I've seen. Santana simply no longer fit the mold that Stearns was seemingly looking for with his offensive and defensive plans. I agree ... Santana is a very nice bat, but the fact that they sent him to the minors and kept him they for a pretty huge chunk of the season last year meant that the writing was pretty much on the wall regarding how they viewed his future with the organization. Compare that to the Shaw situation this year. Santana even at his worst last year was still hitting pretty substantially better than Shaw has most of the season, yet Shaw is getting weeks upon weeks to try to work out of it. That's a pretty strong indicator of how both players are/were viewed by the organization.

Gamel is never going to be a star, but he's the type who is totally capable of putting up Brady Clark-type numbers during Clark's best years, and that makes for a very valuable player, especially as a 4th OF. If Zavolas turns out to be a serviceable mid-rotation guy, which I think he stands a very good chance of, this trade is a win.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 26, 2019, 11:15 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 6109
Jopal78! said:
Gamel who may not have the power Santana has but plays all three spots, runs well and makes contact.


Gamel is striking out 29% this year and has been a career negative value defender. He is a good baserunner but only has 1 SB this year.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 26, 2019, 12:15 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 5773
He still runs really well, which plays into his defense as well. Santana wasn't a good defender, but contrary to what you'd assume about a guy of his size, he was also pretty fast.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 26, 2019, 2:02 PM Post
User avatar

The Weatherman
Global Moderator
Posts: 6492
I had to look it up after Domingo's awful play on Braun's hit...he is literally the worst outfielder in MLB this year, -11 outs above average. His speed is below average for corner outfielders. As PeavyFury noted, he has canceled out over half (actually 2/3 of his bWAR) due to poor defense.

Unfortunately Domingo was quite valuable to the Brewers as a DH as well as a PH in Sept/Oct. I doubt we will have someone like that later this year.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 26, 2019, 9:07 PM Post
Posts: 1392
trwi7 said:
OnTheBlack said:
Ok, if you watched the Brewers game tonight, then you can't say that you watched Santana and never noticed his defense being that bad! That was a comically bad play. I really don't know what he did. It was a LD to right-center and he ran in on it and not over far enough and ended up nowhere near the ball!


As much as you guys complain about treego going over the top in his love for Santana, there are a ton of guys going over the top trying to point out every flaw. He didn't go back, he went sideways and then back almost immediately and didn't get near the ball because it left the bat on a line at 107 mph with an expected batting average of .680.

Image



His attempt and route was laughably bad. I don't really care what the exit velocity was or that he didn't make the play, it was how slow to react and how far from making the play he was. And I'm not pointing out "every flaw," I'm pointing out how bad his defense is.

And this comment;

Even worse than those two is Domingo Santana, whose numbers suggest he’s playing left field with a blindfold (-8.7 UZR, -7 DRS); even given his -11.5 UZR/150 for his career, this is much, much worse.


...Isn't me going over the top, it's from fangraphs.

He's a good hitter. He'd be a much better player if he could just DH. I could see him being a productive player for years and I suspect he will be. I'll guess he ends up playing for multiple teams and moves around quite a bit because his bat will play, but I'd also guess that in the future, he'll primarily be a DH only.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: June 26, 2019, 9:23 PM Post
Posts: 1392
topper09er said:
Jopal78! said:
Gamel who may not have the power Santana has but plays all three spots, runs well and makes contact.


Gamel is striking out 29% this year and has been a career negative value defender. He is a good baserunner but only has 1 SB this year.



Stolen bases aren't really all that important to me when it comes to how good of a base runner someone is.

Gamel=Play all 3 OF spots without embarrassing himself in CF, walks a bit more and is more accustomed to playin gthe 4th OF'er role and a left handed bat off the bench.

Santana=Terrible defender, good bat, not a good fit with the Brewers.

Santana's not a bad player(he is a awful defensive OF'er) but he wasn't a fit with the Brewers. So they traded him for someone who WAS a better fit and they got a starting pitcher as well.

There's also the fact that Gamel had a option.

I also really don't care about how many stolen bases someone has as long as they get on base and don't make stupid mistakes. We sent the guy down to the minors last year after he struggled badly, we had Braun, Yelich and Cain in the OF.

I don't really get what people expected us to get in return for Santana? He's hitting well. I'm happy for him. He wouldn't have the same line in Milwaukee as he wouldn't have gottten the AB's.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 22, 2019, 4:38 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 14183
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Zavolas named Carolina League Pitcher of the Year: Noah Zavolas is top two in the league ERA, IP, WHIP, BB/9, K/BB, FIP and xFIP.

Meanwhile both Gamel and Santana have slowed offensively.

Santana has hit the IL and carries a .256/.332/.449/.781 slash line. Santana is listed as a .4 bWAR and a .3 fWAR this season.

Gamel has seen very little playing time lately as Braun is smoking hot as well as having the emergence of Grisham. Gamel for the season has a .243/.330/.376/.706 slash line and has a .4 bWAR and a .7 fWAR this season.

When you throw in the production Braun has given us as a starter this season as well as carrying a 1.4 bWAR and 1.5 fWAR I think it’s been a good trade for Stearns so far.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 22, 2019, 7:25 PM Post
Posts: 5071
Brew4U said:
Zavolas named Carolina League Pitcher of the Year: Noah Zavolas is top two in the league ERA, IP, WHIP, BB/9, K/BB, FIP and xFIP.

Meanwhile both Gamel and Santana have slowed offensively.

Santana has hit the IL and carries a .256/.332/.449/.781 slash line. Santana is listed as a .4 bWAR and a .3 fWAR this season.

Gamel has seen very little playing time lately as Braun is smoking hot as well as having the emergence of Grisham. Gamel for the season has a .243/.330/.376/.706 slash line and has a .4 bWAR and a .7 fWAR this season.

When you throw in the production Braun has given us as a starter this season as well as carrying a 1.4 bWAR and 1.5 fWAR I think it’s been a good trade for Stearns so far.


I always felt that Zavolas would determine whether this trade would be a win for the Brewers.

Santana was gone at some point, Gamel would also be a relatively easy cut - especially with the way Grisham has turned out and the presence of Stokes. But the performance of Zavolas is very interesting.

Pitchers like Zavolas, Brent Suter, Max Lazar, and Dylan File, who know how to pitch, who manage to minimize exit velocity, may be the next trend. Especially if the "super-live" baseball this year is the way it will be going forward.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 22, 2019, 10:15 PM Post
Posts: 2201
Still a bad trade (so far) whatever way you serve it up...
We traded a solid power corner OF hitter, who on our team would have played way more than half the games because of injuries to Braun, Yelich and Cain.
Santana could be a huge fill in for us against lefties, especially off the bench like he was last season. Braun moving to first could place him in the lineup batting possibly fourth against a lefty. Santana would look nice against all those Cubs lefties.
So he struggles with d.... pull him in the seventh when we have a lead. If we have no lead, his bat plays.
Gamel, right now, is more like the defensive fifth outfielder that we could find elsewhere. Hopefully, he continues to improve, but this is still a trade loss for DS.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 22, 2019, 10:16 PM Post
Posts: 2201
Would Seattle or Milwaukee entertain a trade back?


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 22, 2019, 10:22 PM Post
Posts: 8254
rickh150 said:
Would Seattle or Milwaukee entertain a trade back?

Given their poor season, the Ms’s would absolutely like to return their purchase


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 22, 2019, 10:25 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 10234
rickh150 said:
Still a bad trade (so far) whatever way you serve it up...
We traded a solid power corner OF hitter, who on our team would have played way more than half the games because of injuries to Braun, Yelich and Cain.
Santana could be a huge fill in for us against lefties, especially off the bench like he was last season. Braun moving to first could place him in the lineup batting possibly fourth against a lefty. Santana would look nice against all those Cubs lefties.
So he struggles with d.... pull him in the seventh when we have a lead. If we have no lead, his bat plays.
Gamel, right now, is more like the defensive fifth outfielder that we could find elsewhere. Hopefully, he continues to improve, but this is still a trade loss for DS.


What about the legit pitching prospect alluded to in several previous posts that you neglect to mention? This was not a 1-for-1 deal, even though the two OF WAR # come pretty close to matching. If you are basing the return only on what the MLB team has gotten, that seems like it might be a little too narrow of a viewpoint.

Would Santana have helped? Maybe. Or he might have been just as nearly useless as he was most of last season. Just because he put up a half season of good stats for Seattle doesn't mean that would have happened in Milwaukee.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next  [ 351 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply
  


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search this forum (phpBB search):
Jump to:  
Search entire board (Google search):
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Test