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Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE

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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 22, 2019, 10:26 PM Post
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Buuuuuut, Santana isn’t better and we got a good pitching prospect. On top of that, Gamel has out performed Santana vs. LHP.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 22, 2019, 10:28 PM Post
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Brew4U said:
Buuuuuut, Santana isn’t better and we got a good pitching prospect. On top of that, Gamel has out performed Santana vs. LHP.


Dangit ... stop using numbers and logic to disprove the "Stearns Sucks!!!" viewpoint!


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 6:06 AM Post
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Joey Meyer Bombs said:
rickh150 said:
Still a bad trade (so far) whatever way you serve it up...
We traded a solid power corner OF hitter, who on our team would have played way more than half the games because of injuries to Braun, Yelich and Cain.
Santana could be a huge fill in for us against lefties, especially off the bench like he was last season. Braun moving to first could place him in the lineup batting possibly fourth against a lefty. Santana would look nice against all those Cubs lefties.
So he struggles with d.... pull him in the seventh when we have a lead. If we have no lead, his bat plays.
Gamel, right now, is more like the defensive fifth outfielder that we could find elsewhere. Hopefully, he continues to improve, but this is still a trade loss for DS.


What about the legit pitching prospect alluded to in several previous posts that you neglect to mention? This was not a 1-for-1 deal, even though the two OF WAR # come pretty close to matching. If you are basing the return only on what the MLB team has gotten, that seems like it might be a little too narrow of a viewpoint.

Would Santana have helped? Maybe. Or he might have been just as nearly useless as he was most of last season. Just because he put up a half season of good stats for Seattle doesn't mean that would have happened in Milwaukee.


Not to discredit the pitcher or the trade, but the man is 23 years old. Playing A ball. He should be doing fairly well there. I hope he turns into a legit prospect. But would like to see him advance a bit first.
As far as Santana goes. I’m glad I never have to see him play RF ever again.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 7:13 AM Post
Posts: 13182
Santana trade was a product of a talented roster and a player who was not versatile. If Stearns got something useful out of that, awesome! He simply had to be traded and Stearns likely sought the best deal possible.

I liked Domingo and he played a huge part of the September run...but we had Braun/Cain/Yelich and needed a 4th OFer who could play all three positions and ideally well. Santana definitely could not do either of those things.

This trade needs to stop being compared at such face value.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 7:16 AM Post
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ThisIsMyCrew said:

Not to discredit the pitcher or the trade, but the man is 23 years old. Playing A ball. He should be doing fairly well there. I hope he turns into a legit prospect. But would like to see him advance a bit first.
As far as Santana goes. I’m glad I never have to see him play RF ever again.


Just to clarify, he was pitcher of the year in high A+ ball. I just mention that because in my mind there is a big difference between Wisconsin and Carolina. But next year in Biloxi will tell the tale. IIRC, Carolina is more of a pitchers league and the Southern League is more even hitters vs. pitchers.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 8:18 AM Post
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Santana has hit 14 of his home runs in "low leverage" situations.

Gamel has hit his best in high leverage.

The Mariners have a lot of low/medium leverage ABs, probably against poor pitchers.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 1:09 PM Post
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My only complaint about the Santana trade was the timing of it. Should have happened a year sooner in my opinion. Going into 2018 he had to have had more value than he did when we traded him.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 1:18 PM Post
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ThisIsMyCrew said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
rickh150 said:
Still a bad trade (so far) whatever way you serve it up...
We traded a solid power corner OF hitter, who on our team would have played way more than half the games because of injuries to Braun, Yelich and Cain.
Santana could be a huge fill in for us against lefties, especially off the bench like he was last season. Braun moving to first could place him in the lineup batting possibly fourth against a lefty. Santana would look nice against all those Cubs lefties.
So he struggles with d.... pull him in the seventh when we have a lead. If we have no lead, his bat plays.
Gamel, right now, is more like the defensive fifth outfielder that we could find elsewhere. Hopefully, he continues to improve, but this is still a trade loss for DS.


What about the legit pitching prospect alluded to in several previous posts that you neglect to mention? This was not a 1-for-1 deal, even though the two OF WAR # come pretty close to matching. If you are basing the return only on what the MLB team has gotten, that seems like it might be a little too narrow of a viewpoint.

Would Santana have helped? Maybe. Or he might have been just as nearly useless as he was most of last season. Just because he put up a half season of good stats for Seattle doesn't mean that would have happened in Milwaukee.


Not to discredit the pitcher or the trade, but the man is 23 years old. Playing A ball. He should be doing fairly well there. I hope he turns into a legit prospect. But would like to see him advance a bit first.
As far as Santana goes. I’m glad I never have to see him play RF ever again.


Zavolas is a 2018 draftee. This is his first year in full-season ball. Obviously older for a draftee, as he was a senior, but still ... pitcher of the year in his first full season is not something to overlook.


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Online  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 1:25 PM Post
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timpep said:
My only complaint about the Santana trade was the timing of it. Should have happened a year sooner in my opinion. Going into 2018 he had to have had more value than he did when we traded him.


Doubt it not much changed he was still the same player and I doubt teams changed their valuation of him all that much.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 1:37 PM Post
Posts: 470
I'm not saying he is going to turn into Corey Kluber...but Corey Kluber didn't really crack into the majors until his age 27 season. This was his first year getting more than 25 big league starts. He also was in A+ his age 23 season for 2/3rds of his season. He also was traded around this time to Cleveland for Jake Westbrook. He may have never even developed into the pitcher he was without the trade. We will never know.

Like I said before, although there are a lot of parallels between these two players, my point is players develop at different rates. Some are fast developers and some never pan out. If Zavalos is indeed a late bloomer and turns into a Kluber or maybe even half a Kluber...the Brewers win the trade. If he doesn't, the Brewers didn't really lose it. It is way too early to draw conclusions on who "won".


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 1:51 PM Post
Posts: 2201
These numbers aren't close:
Career OPS- Santana 800.......... Gamel 719
Career OPS vs lefties Santana 831........ Gamel 747


Also, the Brewers would simply play Santana in right and have Yelich play multiple positions. Braun could play some 1B too. To say that Gamel is Mr. Flexible and Santana is a liability is somewhat scewed, seeing that Santana, on THIS team, would not hurt us since we have other flexible outfielders. Playing Gamel for defensive purposes and as a pinch hitter when contact is needed are the clear areas where Gamel is superior. No where else....


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 1:58 PM Post
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I don't think you can declare anything about this trade until Zavolas makes the majors.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Online  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 2:14 PM Post
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rickh150 said:
These numbers aren't close:
Career OPS- Santana 800.......... Gamel 719
Career OPS vs lefties Santana 831........ Gamel 747


Santana 2019: -15 DRS | -15.7 UZR | -13 OAA
Gamel 2019: +4 DRS | +2.5 UZR | +1 OAA

These numbers aren't close either.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 2:32 PM Post
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zurch1818 said:
I'm not saying he is going to turn into Corey Kluber...but Corey Kluber didn't really crack into the majors until his age 27 season. This was his first year getting more than 25 big league starts. He also was in A+ his age 23 season for 2/3rds of his season. He also was traded around this time to Cleveland for Jake Westbrook. He may have never even developed into the pitcher he was without the trade. We will never know.

Like I said before, although there are a lot of parallels between these two players, my point is players develop at different rates. Some are fast developers and some never pan out. If Zavalos is indeed a late bloomer and turns into a Kluber or maybe even half a Kluber...the Brewers win the trade. If he doesn't, the Brewers didn't really lose it. It is way too early to draw conclusions on who "won".


Again, Zavolas is not a late bloomer. He was drafted by the Mariners LAST YEAR!


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 4:01 PM Post
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nate82 said:
timpep said:
My only complaint about the Santana trade was the timing of it. Should have happened a year sooner in my opinion. Going into 2018 he had to have had more value than he did when we traded him.


Doubt it not much changed he was still the same player and I doubt teams changed their valuation of him all that much.


That was a strange offseason. Corey Dickerson got straight up released. He was going into his 2nd arby year so he was making substantially more money, but obviously the market for OFers was severely depressed.

I can grant to the detractors of the trade that Santana might be a marginally better player than Gamel--or at least he had/has a higher upside than Gamel. That's why we got Zavolas. Plus Gamel is a better fit for our roster. Good trade overall.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 4:30 PM Post
Posts: 8257
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
zurch1818 said:
I'm not saying he is going to turn into Corey Kluber...but Corey Kluber didn't really crack into the majors until his age 27 season. This was his first year getting more than 25 big league starts. He also was in A+ his age 23 season for 2/3rds of his season. He also was traded around this time to Cleveland for Jake Westbrook. He may have never even developed into the pitcher he was without the trade. We will never know.

Like I said before, although there are a lot of parallels between these two players, my point is players develop at different rates. Some are fast developers and some never pan out. If Zavalos is indeed a late bloomer and turns into a Kluber or maybe even half a Kluber...the Brewers win the trade. If he doesn't, the Brewers didn't really lose it. It is way too early to draw conclusions on who "won".


Again, Zavolas is not a late bloomer. He was drafted by the Mariners LAST YEAR!


People are looking at age like he was a castoff. The Brewers nearly drafted him and desired him the entire time. He’s younger than Mike Fiers at this point, although he had a crazy strikeout rate


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 5:21 PM Post
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rickh150 said:
These numbers aren't close:
Career OPS- Santana 800.......... Gamel 719
Career OPS vs lefties Santana 831........ Gamel 747



As sveum rules notes, that's not the whole story. Santana is one of those rare guys who are so bad defensively that it erodes a large portion of their offensive value. Gamel's counting stats don't look better, but he's actually having a better overall season as far as total production/value.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 5:33 PM Post
Posts: 2201
sveumrules said:
rickh150 said:
These numbers aren't close:
Career OPS- Santana 800.......... Gamel 719
Career OPS vs lefties Santana 831........ Gamel 747


Santana 2019: -15 DRS | -15.7 UZR | -13 OAA
Gamel 2019: +4 DRS | +2.5 UZR | +1 OAA

These numbers aren't close either.



Eh... just replace Santana late in games for Hernan or a fifth OF with d. Also, I wouldn't have been surprised if our creative coaching staff hid DS on certain at bats with a creative outfield shift. The bat plays.
I'm not a Santana for All Star or MVP guy either. It's just odd that so many take Gamel over another .800 ops guy with a couple more years of control. If Gamel could steal a base in the 8th or 9th (ala Gomez), I'd think differently. His bat and speed limit him.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 5:39 PM Post
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rickh150 said:
Eh... just replace Santana late in games for Hernan or a fifth OF with d. Also, I wouldn't have been surprised if our creative coaching staff hid DS on certain at bats with a creative outfield shift. The bat plays.


To have a terrible defensive player in the OF for 8 innings instead of 9?

It's not all about dingers anymore. Counting stats are great, but the reality is that Santana has eroded most of his offensive value so far this year by 'playing' his bat.


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Offline  Re: Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE
Posted: August 23, 2019, 6:37 PM Post
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PeaveyFury said:
rickh150 said:
Eh... just replace Santana late in games for Hernan or a fifth OF with d. Also, I wouldn't have been surprised if our creative coaching staff hid DS on certain at bats with a creative outfield shift. The bat plays.


To have a terrible defensive player in the OF for 8 innings instead of 9?

It's not all about dingers anymore. Counting stats are great, but the reality is that Santana has eroded most of his offensive value so far this year by 'playing' his bat.


Still better than Gamel..... would like to stick his bat in the cleanup spot against lefties we cannot seem to hit. For all the times I've been told "small sample size" when looking at stats, I'll flip it and say the same to those who want Gamel in there now against a lefty rather than Santana.


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