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Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers

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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 7:32 AM Post
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Going off the eye test, I'd say Keon is probably a little faster and more athletic than Cain in CF, but Cain is a little more instinctive. Probably makes the two of them about a wash. Keon did seem to lose concentration at times out there, which led to some interesting defense on "can of corn"-type plays.

I'll miss Keon's infectious energy. He always seems to play with a smile on his face, and no one is ever going to question his effort.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 8:19 AM Post
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I would expect the Brewers will add a veteran OF on a minor league deal prior to spring training (Carlos Gomez, Cameron Maybin, Austin Jackson perhaps) Signing a quality 2B frees up Perez to be the 5th OF and he's pretty good in that role too. If they have to start the year with Perez in a 2B platoon, one of Stokes or Taylor could make the team out of Arizona, but they'd likely rotate in that role so they get enough ABs but they might opt for the veteran who can play all 3 positions and who hits RH.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 8:28 AM Post
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JohnBriggs12 said:
I would expect the Brewers will add a veteran OF on a minor league deal prior to spring training (Carlos Gomez, Cameron Maybin, Austin Jackson perhaps) Signing a quality 2B frees up Perez to be the 5th OF and he's pretty good in that role too. If they have to start the year with Perez in a 2B platoon, one of Stokes or Taylor could make the team out of Arizona, but they'd likely rotate in that role so they get enough ABs but they might opt for the veteran who can play all 3 positions and who hits RH.


The Brewers' love of versatility and the lack of perceived news on him is starting to make me wonder if the Brewers are a darkhorse to sign Marwin Gonzalez. He's a switch hitter who can play nearly anywhere on defense. He'd be another tool for a manager who loves Swiss Army Knife-types.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 8:46 AM Post
Posts: 1587
YoungGeezy1 said:

I dont know, to me, hard to call him average.


Pfft, that's just because you've seen him play.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 9:54 AM Post
Posts: 538
The Mets have been one of the worst offenders annually in DRS (or lack thereof). It makes sense that their new GM recognized how impactful a strong CF could be to their overall defense. And it makes sense that ultimately they stepped up and met Stearns' demands. Van Wagenen clearly recognizes the compound effect of turning hits into outs on a team's pitching. And he went out and got Cain-lite for the time being. Given where their defense has ranked in saving runs, plugging Broxton in CF and pairing that with those arms, there could be a dramatic effect.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 10:02 AM Post
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LOL @ Mets fans saying that Brox is being brought in to back up Juan Lagares. Lagares is oft-injured, and pretty beyond useless when he is healthy. He's also extremely overpaid.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 10:24 AM Post
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Location: New Berlin, WI
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
LOL @ Mets fans saying that Brox is being brought in to back up Juan Lagares. Lagares is oft-injured, and pretty beyond useless when he is healthy. He's also extremely overpaid.


I remember in many trade discussions Mets fans seeming to think Lagares was this player that had a ton of value. I don't understand this at all. The guy has produced nothing of value, ever. I believe I've heard he's a very good defender, but not quite to the elite caliber of a Cain and definitely not the athlete that Keon is. And at the plate, over the last 4 years Lagares has basically been a 250/295/370 hitter...good for a whopping 665 OPS. Add in that he's injured more often than not and last played over 100 games in 2015. There's absolutely no way that Lagares should be playing over Broxton. The only thing Lagares does better than Broxton is make bad contact more often(versus swing and miss). Lagares is basically a 4th or 5th outfielder on bad teams only, and really probably shouldn't have a job at the mlb level.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 10:38 AM Post
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Lagares 2016-18 | 85 wRC+ | +28 DRS | +12.5 UZR | +16.3 UZR/150
Broxton 2016-18 | 93 wRC+ | +13 DRS | +5.3 UZR | +4.5 UZR/150

This is almost a perfect example for how fans over value their own players. You have two guys who for all intense porpoises are about equal as players yet Mets fans think Lagares is clearly better while Brewers fans think the same about Broxton.

The only real edge Keon has is he has been healthier.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 10:57 AM Post
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Location: New Berlin, WI
sveumrules said:
Lagares 2016-18 | 85 wRC+ | +28 DRS | +12.5 UZR | +16.3 UZR/150
Broxton 2016-18 | 93 wRC+ | +13 DRS | +5.3 UZR | +4.5 UZR/150

This is almost a perfect example for how fans over value their own players. You have two guys who for all intense porpoises are about equal as players yet Mets fans think Lagares is clearly better while Brewers fans think the same about Broxton.

The only real edge Keon has is he has been healthier.


This also looks like an example of how the eye test matters and defensive metrics aren't that useful. Lagares was an average or slightly above average defender according to those metrics in 2015 and 2016, all of a sudden in 2017 he had some crazy defensive year making him look elite. I'll also add he played 94 games in 2017 and 143 and 79 the other 2 years. 2015 was his worst defensive year and he played the 143.

Based on the numbers you listed above, Lagares is a better defender than Cain. More likely than that...these metrics are significantly flawed and not an accurate representation of the player.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 12:34 PM Post
Posts: 1871
sveumrules said:
for all intense porpoises


Regardless of how seriously determined and focused the aquatic mammals, I think the Brewers did well in this trade.


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Online  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 12:53 PM Post
Posts: 4270
sveumrules said:
Lagares 2016-18 | 85 wRC+ | +28 DRS | +12.5 UZR | +16.3 UZR/150
Broxton 2016-18 | 93 wRC+ | +13 DRS | +5.3 UZR | +4.5 UZR/150

This is almost a perfect example for how fans over value their own players. You have two guys who for all intense porpoises are about equal as players yet Mets fans think Lagares is clearly better while Brewers fans think the same about Broxton.

The only real edge Keon has is he has been healthier.


I'd chime in that Broxton couldnt have played as much on the field as Lagares has in those 3years. Wouldnt DRS be an accumulating stat over that time? I dont know how the UZR is figured. Don't even know what it is short for? Anyway just noting playing time may be a reason for Lagares better stats.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 1:03 PM Post
Posts: 4169
Location: New Berlin, WI
Lagares has played about 200 games the last 3 seasons due to injury, but you're right DRS is a cumulation stat. I don't know what UZR stands for but I think it generally relates to range. Part of the reason I also don't buy into Lagares as an elite range guy is he doesn't steal bases. His UZR is in Billy Hamilton territory in 2017 and basically mediocre every other year the last 4 years. I know an awful lot more than speed goes into stealing, but if he was truly approaching Billy Hamilton's range...he'd be able to steal at least some bases on speed alone, even if his instincts/reads were well below average on the bases. Or at the very least, he'd TRY to steal more bases and simply fail often and get thrown out. I don't know any elite speed guys or borderline elite speed guys that simply don't steal because their instincts are THAT bad.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 2:32 PM Post
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KeithStone53151 said:
This also looks like an example of how the eye test matters and defensive metrics aren't that useful. Lagares was an average or slightly above average defender according to those metrics in 2015 and 2016, all of a sudden in 2017 he had some crazy defensive year making him look elite. I'll also add he played 94 games in 2017 and 143 and 79 the other 2 years. 2015 was his worst defensive year and he played the 143.

Based on the numbers you listed above, Lagares is a better defender than Cain. More likely than that...these metrics are significantly flawed and not an accurate representation of the player.


As flawed as any metric may be, they are still far superior to the eye test. Last year there were 43,489 innings of CF played, how many did you personally observe?

When Lagares was a regular CF from 2013-15 before injuries hit he registered a +54 DRS (1st), +25.7 UZR (2nd) & +13.4 UZR/150 (1st) in 2,673 innings (12th).

From his debut in 2013 until now he is 3rd in DRS (+92), 5th in UZR (+38.2) & 3rd in UZR/150 (+14.3) over that time frame despite being only 19th in innings (3,784).

Since you brought up Cain, since 2013 he ranks 2nd in DRS (+82), 4th in UZR (+45.4) & 7th in UZR/150 (+10.5) in 5,727 innings (5th).


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 3:07 PM Post
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Article in the Athetic today.......take was that industry people think the Brewers did well in this trade

For those with access.....Brewers continue to stockpile their bullpen in trade for Bobby Wahl
https://theathletic.com/754006/2019/01/ ... obby-wahl/


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 07, 2019, 4:33 PM Post
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I think the real questions is whether or not Wahl cried when he found out about the trade.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 08, 2019, 9:18 AM Post
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Roderick said:
sveumrules said:
for all intense porpoises


Regardless of how seriously determined and focused the aquatic mammals, I think the Brewers did well in this trade.


Fish aren't mammals.

Lagares is decent on defense. Good instincts and respectable athleticism. Mets should run a pseudo-platoon and split their innings fairly evenly.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 08, 2019, 2:54 PM Post
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I like it. Sometimes you have to trade prospects to upgrade your MLB roster, and sometimes you have to trade guys from the MLB roster to bolster the farm.

Broxton seems to be a really good, likable guy, and he has the tools to be a very good MLB player. That said, he's very hot & cold with a big hole in his swing, and that isn't something a playoff/World Series team should count on when they have other options. Gamel is more of a "Stearns guy," with better bat-to-ball skills. I think he'll be a fine 4th OF, and I would guess that Ray will be up if an injury occurs after the first few months of the season. Build surpluses and trade away the guys that make the most sense to trade.

Wahl should help out this year as a guy they can shuffle back-and-forth as needed between AAA and the majors, allowing them to continue to run their bullpen the way they like. The other two guys are young with promise, and we need to keep finding ways to get guys like that in the system. Since most guys in the low minors don't make it, you need to have a lot of guys with talent at that level to assure that some of them will help the MLB team someday.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 08, 2019, 7:12 PM Post
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Roderick said:
sveumrules said:
for all intense porpoises


Regardless of how seriously determined and focused the aquatic mammals, I think the Brewers did well in this trade.

Or intents and purposes


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 08, 2019, 10:43 PM Post
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I took that as an intended Rickyism from sveumrules.


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Offline  Re: Keon Broxton to Mets; Bobby Wahl, Adam Hill, Felix Valerio to Brewers
Posted: January 09, 2019, 7:49 AM Post
Posts: 1871
AKCheesehead said:
I took that as an intended Rickyism from sveumrules.


I figured he was talking into his phone. You never know what they are going to put down for you.


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