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2019 Misc MLB News

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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 11:57 AM Post
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I've watched the video over and over with the intent to find a way to believe contact was unintentional. What gets me though is that if Lucroy magically disappears and no contact happens, the runner misses home plate by 3 feet, so what exactly is he doing if not trying to hit Lucroy? He never attempted any time of slide at all... Maybe he didn't want to hurt him but he wanted to hit him.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 12:24 PM Post
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I think intent is really hard to judge, so I'll let others more comfortable making those types of determines come to their own conclusion.

What does seem to be clear is the decision to go inside was unconventional and what got him in trouble even if it wasn't his intent to run Lucroy over. Has anyone seen a shot which might have down the Astro's on deck hitter trying to let Marisnick know where to slide? I haven't, but I do wonder if his decision was his alone or if he had any help.

What is less clear to me is the timing on Marisnick's hard move towards the inside of the baseline compared to Lucroy's move up the first base line to catch the throw. I watched the GIF above, and I watched the play on Youtube and slowed to 1/4 speed to try to see when Marisnick made his cut inside. I then tried to go frame-by-frame as best I could to see when they both made their moves that made the collision inevitable. I don't expect to change any minds, but I do think it was close enough that people can have a different opinions on the subject without being told they are "blind" or categorically told they are wrong.

When Marisnick plants his right foot to cut harder to the inside of the baseline, Lucroy is pretty stationary. At that point, right, wrong or otherwise Marisnick is committed to the path he is taking, and while he chose a path that was more likely to result in contact, I am not convinced that was his intent. Pretty simultaneous to or just fractions of a second after Marisnick plants his right foot Lucroy starts his move up the baseline to catch the throw. By the time Marisnick plants his left foot, a collision is going to happen.

Looking at Marisnick's last step (or the stride off his left foot), I can see how someone would interpret that as not a forceful or purpose full stride to run over Lucroy. I am not sure I'd go so far as to say he "stumbled", but his foot hits the ground much further ahead of his body than a normal stride. It looks odd, and to me it doesn't look like a stride one would take if you want to run someone over. His intent could have still been to run him over, but he kinda botched it if that was his goal.

Finally, when I look at the view from the third base side, Marisnick extends his arms and initiates contact with them rather than leading with his shoulder.

Was Marisnick in the wrong? In my opinion, he was. His decision to go inside the baseline instead of outside was odd even if it isn't without precedence. I am not sure he intended to initiate contact or not, but his decision to take the path he did made it inevitable. Should he be suspended? Yeah, probably, because he did initiate contact with Lucroy by deviating from his path even if that wasn't his intent wasn't to run him over.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 12:27 PM Post
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Did the benches clear? Were Angels players and coaches upset immediately following the incident?


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 12:35 PM Post
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My problem is Lucroy gave him the lane to slide to the outside. That's exactly what a catcher is supposed to do, give him a lane. At no point did Lucroy move towards the lane that was given to Marisnick from the start. To top it off that makes me believe it was 100% intentional is that Marisnick knew he was out. The ball gets to Lucroy when Marisnick is still a good 8-10 feet from home plate and he knows that if Lucroy catches it clean, he's out so he shifts his position towards Lucroy to collide with him and separate him from the ball.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 12:35 PM Post
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“That was a bad play,” Marisnick said. “For me, I was running and I see him take a step kind of up the line like he’s going to drop and go back so I tried to take an in-step and slide head first on the inside corner. And I watched the play again and it looks like he just drops right in front of me and once I kind of made a decision it was too late. And it was a bad play, and I hope he’s OK.”

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 12:40 PM Post
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The Deadspin write-up has Marisnick's version of the play, in which he claims to "take an in-step and slide head first on the inside corner."
(https://deadspin.com/jake-marisnick-sho ... 1836180059)

It's hard to take him at his word, when I don't think I've ever seen a player try to slide to the inside corner of home plate, particularly in the post-Buster-Posey rule MLB where the catcher sets up inside the base line to avoid blocking the plate. Whether rounding third, or leading off 3rd in foul territory (to avoid an out if hit by a line-drive), running to the inside of the plate is a longer distance than sliding to the outside of the bag.

That being said, I think it's possible he tried to juke the catcher to the outside, then jump across his body and try to touch home plate. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, it's possible he doesn't realize the throw will bring the catcher up the line to the inside of the plate, thereby cutting off the intended running lane and leading to earlier-than-anticipated contact.

(Trying to leave Lucroy's name out of the description is not a slight of the player, so much as avoiding biases relating to an ex-Brewer.)

The drop step outside the base line, while otherwise running well inside the base line, gives me pause as to whether it's really a "dirty" play. Marsinick might just be an idiot.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 12:59 PM Post
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Marisnick is a liar. Plain and simple. How he describes what he saw and how the play actually played out are two different things. He's a liar


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 1:05 PM Post
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Post - posey that play just doesn't happen any more. It just doesn't. Lucroy is absolutely, very clearly moving away from the line, and even if not, I haven't seen a single play like this where a runner is attempting to get "the inside corner" of the plate by running three feet inside the baseline at the last second.

Give him a suspension and move on.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 1:09 PM Post
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bjkrautk said:
That being said, I think it's possible he tried to juke the catcher to the outside, then jump across his body and try to touch home plate. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, it's possible he doesn't realize the throw will bring the catcher up the line to the inside of the plate, thereby cutting off the intended running lane and leading to earlier-than-anticipated contact.

The drop step outside the base line, while otherwise running well inside the base line, gives me pause as to whether it's really a "dirty" play. Marsinick might just be an idiot.


I was expecting it to be like Pete Rose and Ray Fosse but after watching the replay my first inclination was what you posted here.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 1:16 PM Post
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homer said:
“That was a bad play,” Marisnick said. “For me, I was running and I see him take a step kind of up the line like he’s going to drop and go back so I tried to take an in-step and slide head first on the inside corner. And I watched the play again and it looks like he just drops right in front of me and once I kind of made a decision it was too late. And it was a bad play, and I hope he’s OK.”


Marisnick for sure walked off the field and immediately into the managers office, which also had a PR person that coached him on a response. That PR person probably started coming up with the best possible spin as soon as the play happened.

This is so clear-cut, I can't believe how much back and forth there has been on whether this was a dirty play. Marisnick looked more like Ronnie Lott than a baseball player yesterday.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 1:31 PM Post
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Intent...... who can say... eh.

Posey rule has been around a while. Trying to "juke" a catcher to the inside just doesn't make sense anymore. You are given the back/outside of the plate. He didn't "juke" to the inside, he came inside, and then dove into the catcher. At no point did he attempt a slide.

If I had to guess intent, I don't think he intended to injure Lucroy, but he did. At no point did Lucroy not give him a lane to slide.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 1:45 PM Post
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trwi7 said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Watch his feet. He was going to slide one way then decided to change direction and then changed direction again while attempting to slide head first. The throw took Lucroy into the path he eventually decided to go. He "lowered his shoulder" because he was sliding head first. And if you watch his upper half, you'll see he tried to avoid a collision right before they collide so his top and bottom are going in different directions. Was it stupid and a really bad attempt, absolutely. But there was no intent to truck him, just weird baseball stuff.


You are blind. [laughing]

Lucroy is moving away from the plate which gives Marisnick that much more of a clear path than he already had and instead of taking it he decides to change his path and truck Lucroy. It's a completely dirty play.

Image



What you can't see in this angle is Lucroy's glove moving one way and his body moves the other. Maybe Marisnick saw his hand reach wide of the basepath and thought the rest of him would follow that path. He definitely takes a big jab step wide right as Lucroy catches the ball. I've now seen the replay as it happened on TV and I think it looks way worse in those angles so I get why people are calling for his head. He should probably be suspended just for being reckless but I really don't think he was trying to hurt anyone or run him over intentionally. I will now ready myself for the forthcoming pitchforks.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 1:51 PM Post
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Location: New Berlin, WI
RoCoBrewfan said:
Intent...... who can say... eh.

Posey rule has been around a while. Trying to "juke" a catcher to the inside just doesn't make sense anymore. You are given the back/outside of the plate. He didn't "juke" to the inside, he came inside, and then dove into the catcher. At no point did he attempt a slide.

If I had to guess intent, I don't think he intended to injure Lucroy, but he did. At no point did Lucroy not give him a lane to slide.


I think this is somewhat key, I don't think anyone thinks he was trying to injure Lucroy. This isn't like a Suh stomping on our lineman's nuts situation. But, he was clearly trying to truck him. It's a dirty play even without intent to injure.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 1:54 PM Post
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homer said:
What you can't see in this angle is Lucroy's glove moving one way and his body moves the other.

What you clearly can't see are the little devil horns on Marisnick's head that are obscured by the batting helmet. It is clear that he planned this years in advance and was waiting for the opportunity to run into Jonathan LuCroy. How better to make sure the Angels don't win another division title. Clearly this is not a Good Omen...

JosephC said:
Stearns probably had no interest in getting a C because the Brewers need a C. It makes much more sense to trade for 3B when it's not needed, and then move the other 3B to 2B, then trade for a 2B, but since the 3B is now at 2B, then the new 2B goes to SS


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 3:23 PM Post
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Wahoo Maniac said:
Marisnick is a liar. Plain and simple. How he describes what he saw and how the play actually played out are two different things. He's a liar


What he describes looks like exactly what happened. Marisnick made the split second decision to go inside before he started the step when he put his right foot far out to the right. Right before that happened Lucroy moved from the right field side of the field away from right field. Making it look like he was preparing to move back and field a slight overthrow or long hop. When Marisnick started moving his right leg out to push off from and go inside Lucoy was blocking the plate, leaving no obvious sliding lane. This is where Lucroy was when Marisnick's right foot about to move outside so he could push off on it and move inside:
Image
At this point is when Marisnick decided to go inside, not sot sure how he could have magically know Lucroy would also be there for him to crush.

Notice in the picture Marisnick's right foot is already extended and he already decided to go inside, well before Lucroy was there.

Watch the first video here in super slo-mo speed (right click choose 1/4 speed) starting at 2:45. You can see Lucroys body swaying towards the outside, then Marisnick puts his right foot out to move inside, then Lucroys moves inside to field it.
https://deadspin.com/jake-marisnick-sho ... 1836180059


People have this odd notion that the "Posey" rule will magically prevent all injuries and now anytime there is an injury on these plays it must be because the rule was violated. It was not, these things happen, and if the rule didnt exist Lucroy would have been expecting a pounding and would not have been


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 3:33 PM Post
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Location: New Berlin, WI
topper09er said:
Wahoo Maniac said:
Marisnick is a liar. Plain and simple. How he describes what he saw and how the play actually played out are two different things. He's a liar


What he describes looks like exactly what happened. Marisnick made the split second decision to go inside before he started the step when he put his right foot far out to the right. Right before that happened Lucroy moved from the right field side of the field away from right field. Making it look like he was preparing to move back and field a slight overthrow or long hop. When Marisnick started moving his right leg out to push off from and go inside Lucoy was blocking the plate, leaving no obvious sliding lane. This is where Lucroy was when Marisnick's right foot about to move outside so he could push off on it and move inside:
Image
At this point is when Marisnick decided to go inside, not sot sure how he could have magically know Lucroy would also be there for him to crush.

Notice in the picture Marisnick's right foot is already extended and he already decided to go inside, well before Lucroy was there.

Watch the first video here in super slo-mo speed (right click choose 1/4 speed) starting at 2:45. You can see Lucroys body swaying towards the outside, then Marisnick puts his right foot out to move inside, then Lucroys moves inside to field it.
https://deadspin.com/jake-marisnick-sho ... 1836180059


People have this odd notion that the "Posey" rule will magically prevent all injuries and now anytime there is an injury on these plays it must be because the rule was violated. It was not, these things happen, and if the rule didnt exist Lucroy would have been expecting a pounding and would not have been


This is just blatantly wrong. At no point was Lucroy ever blocking the plate, no camera angle shows this. There was always a very clear lane on the outer half of the plate. Also as another poster noted, had Lucroy magically disappeared...Marisnick would have missed the plate inside by 3 feet. This wasn't a "well injuries happen" situation. If Lucroy was indeed in the baseline and this contact happened, well I'd say it is what it is. The fact that it happened so far off the plate with Lucroy doing exactly what he should be doing and exactly what the baserunner should expect him to be doing...inexcusable.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 3:38 PM Post
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trwi7 said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Watch his feet. He was going to slide one way then decided to change direction and then changed direction again while attempting to slide head first. The throw took Lucroy into the path he eventually decided to go. He "lowered his shoulder" because he was sliding head first. And if you watch his upper half, you'll see he tried to avoid a collision right before they collide so his top and bottom are going in different directions. Was it stupid and a really bad attempt, absolutely. But there was no intent to truck him, just weird baseball stuff.


You are blind. [laughing]

Lucroy is moving away from the plate which gives Marisnick that much more of a clear path than he already had and instead of taking it he decides to change his path and truck Lucroy. It's a completely dirty play.

Image


The gif proves my point. Watch his feet. He's not sure where to go. He goes one way then changes direction and goes the other and is stumbling in the process. If he goes to the back of the plate he's out easily because that's where the tag is going to be. If he goes to the front side and he could possibly slide around him and away from the tag. And if he was going in with the intent to run him over he's going to try and protect himself, not extend his arms forward like he's starting a head first slide. And I can't believe he will be suspended because he wasn't ejected. The play was reviewed and ejections can come from replay now. If the umps didn't feel the need to eject him on replay I can't imagine the league will suspend him. Nor should they.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 3:39 PM Post
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KeithStone53151 said:
topper09er said:
Wahoo Maniac said:
Marisnick is a liar. Plain and simple. How he describes what he saw and how the play actually played out are two different things. He's a liar


What he describes looks like exactly what happened. Marisnick made the split second decision to go inside before he started the step when he put his right foot far out to the right. Right before that happened Lucroy moved from the right field side of the field away from right field. Making it look like he was preparing to move back and field a slight overthrow or long hop. When Marisnick started moving his right leg out to push off from and go inside Lucoy was blocking the plate, leaving no obvious sliding lane. This is where Lucroy was when Marisnick's right foot about to move outside so he could push off on it and move inside:
Image
At this point is when Marisnick decided to go inside, not sot sure how he could have magically know Lucroy would also be there for him to crush.

Notice in the picture Marisnick's right foot is already extended and he already decided to go inside, well before Lucroy was there.

Watch the first video here in super slo-mo speed (right click choose 1/4 speed) starting at 2:45. You can see Lucroys body swaying towards the outside, then Marisnick puts his right foot out to move inside, then Lucroys moves inside to field it.
https://deadspin.com/jake-marisnick-sho ... 1836180059


People have this odd notion that the "Posey" rule will magically prevent all injuries and now anytime there is an injury on these plays it must be because the rule was violated. It was not, these things happen, and if the rule didnt exist Lucroy would have been expecting a pounding and would not have been


This is just blatantly wrong. At no point was Lucroy ever blocking the plate, no camera angle shows this. There was always a very clear lane on the outer half of the plate. Also as another poster noted, had Lucroy magically disappeared...Marisnick would have missed the plate inside by 3 feet. This wasn't a "well injuries happen" situation. If Lucroy was indeed in the baseline and this contact happened, well I'd say it is what it is. The fact that it happened so far off the plate with Lucroy doing exactly what he should be doing and exactly what the baserunner should expect him to be doing...inexcusable.


Pretty sure Lucroy is blocking about 2/3 of the plate in that photo without the ball.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 4:53 PM Post
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jerichoholicninja said:
trwi7 said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Watch his feet. He was going to slide one way then decided to change direction and then changed direction again while attempting to slide head first. The throw took Lucroy into the path he eventually decided to go. He "lowered his shoulder" because he was sliding head first. And if you watch his upper half, you'll see he tried to avoid a collision right before they collide so his top and bottom are going in different directions. Was it stupid and a really bad attempt, absolutely. But there was no intent to truck him, just weird baseball stuff.


You are blind. [laughing]

Lucroy is moving away from the plate which gives Marisnick that much more of a clear path than he already had and instead of taking it he decides to change his path and truck Lucroy. It's a completely dirty play.

Image


The gif proves my point. Watch his feet. He's not sure where to go. He goes one way then changes direction and goes the other and is stumbling in the process. If he goes to the back of the plate he's out easily because that's where the tag is going to be. If he goes to the front side and he could possibly slide around him and away from the tag. And if he was going in with the intent to run him over he's going to try and protect himself, not extend his arms forward like he's starting a head first slide. And I can't believe he will be suspended because he wasn't ejected. The play was reviewed and ejections can come from replay now. If the umps didn't feel the need to eject him on replay I can't imagine the league will suspend him. Nor should they.


No matter how you try to sping this, you are dead wrong. Marisnick had a clear path to the outer part of the plate. He was running to the inside of the baseline and knew that's exactly where catchers are now taught to be. He intentionally ran over Lucroy and then try to come up with an extremely lame excuse. Just because the umpires didn't throw him out (they should have ejected him on the spot) doesn't mean he shouldn't be suspended. They called him out for the dirty play. There is no excuse for Marisnick's intentional act. He should be suspended for the exact amount of time Lucroy misses. It won't happen, but that punishment would fit the dirty, intientional act.


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Offline  Re: 2019 Misc MLB News
Posted: July 08, 2019, 4:58 PM Post
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Location: Wisconsin
I will say that I saw this play live and haven’t tried to do any frame by frame analysis. My reaction at the time was that Lucroy was starting to block the plate and the way he moved his glove made it look for a split second like he was going to cross the baseline to take the throw. Unfortunately, the runner made his decision to go to the inside just as Lucroy pulled the ball in and moved to the inside himself. At that point the collision was unavoidable.

I really don’t think it was the runner’s intention to bowl over Lucroy, or that he is lying about what he saw and thought. But that’s just my opinion.


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