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Moose is back! [1 yr/$10mm guaranteed; $11mm mutual 2020 option -- post #186]

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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 18, 2019, 9:52 PM Post
Posts: 458
clancyphile said:

Or, they bump Cain to 4th OF...

cf: Yelich
lf: Thames
rf: Braun
3b: Shaw
1b: Aguilar
c: Grandal
2b: Moustakas
ss: Arcia

Or maybe Arcia sits, and...

cf: Cain
1b: Thames
rf: Yelich
lf: Braun
3b: Aguilar
ss: Shaw
c: Grandal
2b: Moustakas

No defense... but POWERFUL offense...



Cain was a 6 WAR player. He also just signed an 80 million dollar contract. He was also just a top 10 MVP finisher. But we're suggesting moving him to a reserve role?

Why? To play Thames more?[/quote]

The 2017 version of Thames posted an .877 OPS... Cain in 2018 had an .813 OPS.

In the first half of 2018, Thames had a .901 OPS. If he is healthy, he's got a very potent bat, one that is underrated because he's arguably been misplaced in the leadoff or #2 spot of the batting order.[/quote]

Wow I assumed the Cain to bench thing was a joke. Just wow


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Online  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 18, 2019, 9:54 PM Post
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clancyphile said:

Or, they bump Cain to 4th OF...

cf: Yelich
lf: Thames
rf: Braun
3b: Shaw
1b: Aguilar
c: Grandal
2b: Moustakas
ss: Arcia

Or maybe Arcia sits, and...

cf: Cain
1b: Thames
rf: Yelich
lf: Braun
3b: Aguilar
ss: Shaw
c: Grandal
2b: Moustakas

No defense... but POWERFUL offense...



Cain was a 6 WAR player. He also just signed an 80 million dollar contract. He was also just a top 10 MVP finisher. But we're suggesting moving him to a reserve role?

Why? To play Thames more?[/quote]

The 2017 version of Thames posted an .877 OPS... Cain in 2018 had an .813 OPS.

In the first half of 2018, Thames had a .901 OPS. If he is healthy, he's got a very potent bat, one that is underrated because he's arguably been misplaced in the leadoff or #2 spot of the batting order.[/quote]


There is a 0% chance that they will move Cain to the bench to play Thames. I guarantee this. I would bet a paycheck on this. Thames is a sub-par defender, and a low contact hitter. I know you love these huge bopper lineups, but the Brewers are not moving Cain to the bench. It's just not gonna happen....


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 18, 2019, 9:58 PM Post
Posts: 4382
RoCoBrewfan said:
clancyphile said:
The 2017 version of Thames posted an .877 OPS... Cain in 2018 had an .813 OPS.

In the first half of 2018, Thames had a .901 OPS. If he is healthy, he's got a very potent bat, one that is underrated because he's arguably been misplaced in the leadoff or #2 spot of the batting order.



There is a 0% chance that they will move Cain to the bench to play Thames. I guarantee this. I would bet a paycheck on this. Thames is a sub-par defender, and a low contact hitter. I know you love these huge bopper lineups, but the Brewers are not moving Cain to the bench. It's just not gonna happen....


Huge power lineups are fun - and it's not even my first choice... but it's nice to know those lineups can be built. I recalled that one time where the Cardinals were using McGwire in the top of the first inning at a number of positions a while back... just to get his bat in for a plate appearance early on.

The Brewers have a very deep team this year. That could be an option this year... you never know. Racking up a big top fo the first could set a tone for an entire series.


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 18, 2019, 10:17 PM Post
Posts: 6471
Crazy talk........Cain is the center fielder and will bat leadoff or 2nd. He had an obp of about 400 last season.

Thames is a butcher in the outfield


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 18, 2019, 10:20 PM Post
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The Moose signing means the Brewers will likely have vastly improved offensive production from the 7 and 8 spots in the order. I hope it's safe to assume Arcia will hit better than he did in the 2018 regular seaon.


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 12:49 AM Post
Posts: 4382
NYChez said:
The Moose signing means the Brewers will likely have vastly improved offensive production from the 7 and 8 spots in the order. I hope it's safe to assume Arcia will hit better than he did in the 2018 regular seaon.


That is probably the biggest question surrounding the Brewers offense. Who is the real Arcia at the plate?


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 1:08 AM Post
Posts: 3677
C'mon now, this is Brewerfan.net, leave the Thames is better than Cain talk to the comments section on JS Online, if there is such a thing. Cain provides great OBP, great defense, & great baserunning.

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 5:52 AM Post
Posts: 269
Devinep said:
clancyphile said:

Or, they bump Cain to 4th OF...

cf: Yelich
lf: Thames
rf: Braun
3b: Shaw
1b: Aguilar
c: Grandal
2b: Moustakas
ss: Arcia

Or maybe Arcia sits, and...



cf: Cain
1b: Thames
rf: Yelich
lf: Braun
3b: Aguilar
ss: Shaw
c: Grandal
2b: Moustakas

No defense... but POWERFUL offense...



Cain was a 6 WAR player. He also just signed an 80 million dollar contract. He was also just a top 10 MVP finisher. But we're suggesting moving him to a reserve role?

Why? To play Thames more?


The 2017 version of Thames posted an .877 OPS... Cain in 2018 had an .813 OPS.

In the first half of 2018, Thames had a .901 OPS. If he is healthy, he's got a very potent bat, one that is underrated because he's arguably been misplaced in the leadoff or #2 spot of the batting order.[/quote]

Wow I assumed the Cain to bench thing was a joke. Just wow[/quote]

Thames is a horrible OF and whiffs almost 40% of the time! He is an all-or-nothing type hitter who far too often, comes away with nothing. I don't even see him making the team if Stearns can do a salary dump and talk some other team into taking him. Cain is a tremendous CF and a very good leadoff hitter. Replacing him with Thames would be the epitome of stupidity.


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Online  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 7:02 AM Post
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From an article on the Moustakas signing:

"We faced roughly 120 right-handers and 40 left-handers from a starting-pitcher perspective," Counsell said. "There's four left-handers in our division, probably, if you map out the rotations. So I think we have some answers left-handed."

I get the sense they’ve prioritized having a strong lineup to face RHPs. Unfortunately 3 of those 4 LHP starters in the division pitch for the Cubs. The only other left-handed starter currently in the division is Alex Wood of the Reds.


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 7:48 AM Post
Posts: 1964
3and2Fastball said:
C'mon now, this is Brewerfan.net, leave the Thames is better than Cain talk to the comments section on JS Online, if there is such a thing. Cain provides great OBP, great defense, & great baserunning.


Even the veterans have risen to Clancy's clickbait on this one. [laughing]


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Online  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 7:57 AM Post
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Saw this tweet from Tom Haudricourt responding to a fan that mentioned they would have preferred signing Jed Lowrie or Asdrúbal Cabera.

Let me know the next time Lowrie or Cabrera hit 25-30 HRs. #Brewers are trying to build an elite offense with no holes in lineup.


I just have to point out the irony of this statement from the same reporter that previously built a narrative around the 2017 team being overly reliant on home runs.

I am fine with the Moustakas signing, and understand why they likely didn’t want to give Lowrie the two or three year deal it would have likely taken to pry him away from signing with his agent-turned-GM. I also think it’s silly to suggest Moustakas is a superior hitter because he is able to hit more home runs (btw, Lowrie and Cabrera each hit 23 HRs last year).


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 8:32 AM Post
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MrTPlush said:
Sure he has above average offense, but literally provides little to nothing.

Image


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 8:40 AM Post
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Posts: 1375
Location: Green Bay, WI
With Moose being signed to play 2B and Shaw covering 3B, has Lowrie requested a position change yet?


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 8:42 AM Post
Posts: 10819
And That said:
MrTPlush said:
Sure he has above average offense, but literally provides little to nothing.

Image


Provides little to nothing outside of that. I must have cut myself off short.

Yah, having decent offense is great to have, but that is basically where his value will stop next year. I am not going to rehash other options, but you have to wonder if average offense that would have provided defense and bass running ability would have been a better option. I am not necessarily talking stolen bases either...but just a guy who doesn't have a plow hitched to his back end. Moustakas on the base paths is likely to cost us numerous times and his defense is probably going to be costly (how much remains to be seen on the later).

And for all the talk that his offense is above average he has a career OPS+ of 98, 108 in 2018, and 104 as a Brewer. Hardly something to get excited about when that is his one dimension of value and is slated to play 2B. It is a total analytical move. I think it will be fine, but funny to think how this move would have been viewed 10 years ago.

Also while no one has really mentioned it I won't be shocked when Moose find himself the odd man out and going all over the diamond if/when Hiura is deemed ready. Which may be part of the plan, who knows. It would give them quite a bit of depth to make the infield what ever they so choose on any given day. Moose, Shaw, and Hiura against a RHP starter would be quite an infield.


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 9:02 AM Post
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Point Beer Is Best said:
With Moose being signed to play 2B and Shaw covering 3B, has Lowrie requested a position change yet?


Are you talking about Lawrie, Brett Lawrie?


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Offline  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 9:19 AM Post
Posts: 10819
clancyphile said:
NYChez said:
The Moose signing means the Brewers will likely have vastly improved offensive production from the 7 and 8 spots in the order. I hope it's safe to assume Arcia will hit better than he did in the 2018 regular seaon.


That is probably the biggest question surrounding the Brewers offense. Who is the real Arcia at the plate?


This offenses biggest improvement isn’t Grandal, but if Arcia can find a way to not be a black hole in the offense. Adding Grandal is great, but getting rid of a black hole in front of the pitcher would be stellar. More pop would be an important factor.

Arcia was often another pitcher in lineup and it absolutely killed. Even when “on” it was usually no power just avaerage which essentially was just as worthless.


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Online  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 9:24 AM Post
Posts: 4205
Location: Madison, WI
LouisEly said:
Clemente’s Dream said:
Don’t really like the signing. Doesn’t fit what they need offensively, which is a high OBP guy. He offers no flexibility at a time when short benches are the rule. The one thing I do like is that it takes expectations off Huira and he can get a full year in AAA.

Who's available that fits that description and can play 2B or 3B and is willing to sign a one year contract for $10M or less?

Before anyone says Dietrich, his lifetime OBP is a marginally better .335 and his defense is horrible. Moose is at least a plus defender.


Marginally better? 335 vs 307 isn't marginally better, it's a wide gap. Also, look vs RHP and it's 312 to 348. That's a big difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with this and don't really have a complaint but I didn't think this was accurate and I could've totally seen the logic of Deitrich instead and then you have that 8 mil for an in season move if needed.

I'd guess their logic was that DD didn't play much IF last year so not so sure on him handling 2B, plus he's just never been good at D. Combine that with that they know Moose and his locker room aspects, known commodity so to speak. So I get all that. However, how do we know how Moose will do at 2B and there could be value in that DD has played a lot of OF lately too so some more flexibility. All in all, from afar I think I'd have gone DD and saved the 8 mil to help elsewhere at the deadline. But I also don't have access to the behind the scenes locker room stuff, we know they value Moose there and maybe DD is not known in that way behind the scenes in baseball, who knows.


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Online  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 9:34 AM Post
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tmwiese55 said:
LouisEly said:
Clemente’s Dream said:
Don’t really like the signing. Doesn’t fit what they need offensively, which is a high OBP guy. He offers no flexibility at a time when short benches are the rule. The one thing I do like is that it takes expectations off Huira and he can get a full year in AAA.

Who's available that fits that description and can play 2B or 3B and is willing to sign a one year contract for $10M or less?

Before anyone says Dietrich, his lifetime OBP is a marginally better .335 and his defense is horrible. Moose is at least a plus defender.


Marginally better? 335 vs 307 isn't marginally better, it's a wide gap. Also, look vs RHP and it's 312 to 348. That's a big difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with this and don't really have a complaint but I didn't think this was accurate and I could've totally seen the logic of Deitrich instead and then you have that 8 mil for an in season move if needed.

I'd guess their logic was that DD didn't play much IF last year so not so sure on him handling 2B, plus he's just never been good at D. Combine that with that they know Moose and his locker room aspects, known commodity so to speak. So I get all that. However, how do we know how Moose will do at 2B and there could be value in that DD has played a lot of OF lately too so some more flexibility. All in all, from afar I think I'd have gone DD and saved the 8 mil to help elsewhere at the deadline. But I also don't have access to the behind the scenes locker room stuff, we know they value Moose there and maybe DD is not known in that way behind the scenes in baseball, who knows.


The fact that Derek Dietrich signed a minor league deal with a team who already has established stars at 2B and 3B tells me everything I need to know about how Dietrich is valued in the league.


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Online  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 9:49 AM Post
Posts: 4205
Location: Madison, WI
Who's available that fits that description and can play 2B or 3B and is willing to sign a one year contract for $10M or less?

Before anyone says Dietrich, his lifetime OBP is a marginally better .335 and his defense is horrible. Moose is at least a plus defender.[/quote]

Marginally better? 335 vs 307 isn't marginally better, it's a wide gap. Also, look vs RHP and it's 312 to 348. That's a big difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with this and don't really have a complaint but I didn't think this was accurate and I could've totally seen the logic of Deitrich instead and then you have that 8 mil for an in season move if needed.

I'd guess their logic was that DD didn't play much IF last year so not so sure on him handling 2B, plus he's just never been good at D. Combine that with that they know Moose and his locker room aspects, known commodity so to speak. So I get all that. However, how do we know how Moose will do at 2B and there could be value in that DD has played a lot of OF lately too so some more flexibility. All in all, from afar I think I'd have gone DD and saved the 8 mil to help elsewhere at the deadline. But I also don't have access to the behind the scenes locker room stuff, we know they value Moose there and maybe DD is not known in that way behind the scenes in baseball, who knows.[/quote]

The fact that Derek Dietrich signed a minor league deal with a team who already has established stars at 2B and 3B tells me everything I need to know about how Dietrich is valued in the league.[/quote]



Well you can take that approach, but how many under the radar guys have overperformed. For example, one could've said "the fact that Scooter got cut tells me all I need to know about how good Scooter is". Or, "the fact that Wade Miley signed a minor league deal tells me all I need to know about Wade Miley." Or, "the fact that Jesus Aguilar never got to the bigs and was cut/waived tells me all I need to know". Can go on and on.

I was speaking specifically just to the locker room stuff that we know basically nothing about.


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Online  Re: Moose is back! [Reportedly 1 yr/$10mm]
Posted: February 19, 2019, 10:25 AM Post
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tmwiese55 said:
Who's available that fits that description and can play 2B or 3B and is willing to sign a one year contract for $10M or less?

Before anyone says Dietrich, his lifetime OBP is a marginally better .335 and his defense is horrible. Moose is at least a plus defender.


Marginally better? 335 vs 307 isn't marginally better, it's a wide gap. Also, look vs RHP and it's 312 to 348. That's a big difference. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with this and don't really have a complaint but I didn't think this was accurate and I could've totally seen the logic of Deitrich instead and then you have that 8 mil for an in season move if needed.

I'd guess their logic was that DD didn't play much IF last year so not so sure on him handling 2B, plus he's just never been good at D. Combine that with that they know Moose and his locker room aspects, known commodity so to speak. So I get all that. However, how do we know how Moose will do at 2B and there could be value in that DD has played a lot of OF lately too so some more flexibility. All in all, from afar I think I'd have gone DD and saved the 8 mil to help elsewhere at the deadline. But I also don't have access to the behind the scenes locker room stuff, we know they value Moose there and maybe DD is not known in that way behind the scenes in baseball, who knows.[/quote]

The fact that Derek Dietrich signed a minor league deal with a team who already has established stars at 2B and 3B tells me everything I need to know about how Dietrich is valued in the league.[/quote]



Well you can take that approach, but how many under the radar guys have overperformed. For example, one could've said "the fact that Scooter got cut tells me all I need to know about how good Scooter is". Or, "the fact that Wade Miley signed a minor league deal tells me all I need to know about Wade Miley." Or, "the fact that Jesus Aguilar never got to the bigs and was cut/waived tells me all I need to know". Can go on and on.

I was speaking specifically just to the locker room stuff that we know basically nothing about.[/quote]

Oh for sure. Every year there are guys who defy expectations, and sometimes even blow them out of the water. The guys you are referring to are three prime examples. I just think that Stearns has proven so adept at player movement that criticizing the acquisition of Moose while arguing for Derek Dietrich is sort of a shell game. Heck, for all we know Brett Lawrie could end up being the most productive 2B at the end of the year. What I do know is that Stearns did his homework on Dietrich, because he does his homework on all available players. And if he determined that Moose is the better value than Dietrich on a cheap deal, I'm good with it.


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