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Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?

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Online  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 08, 2019, 3:05 PM Post
Posts: 1243
Brew crew 92 said:
1.)DH-national league
2.)1.25 million min salary

Gets non super two players extra 2.1 mil
DH will raise ave salary
Gets players % share of revenues closer to previous CBA
Leaving service time as is,along with luxury tax should appease owners


Peter Gammons was just on MLB radio and suggested as a possible answer to the potential labor strife > raising min salary first three years to
Somewhere between 1-2 mil. Simple solution. Boy am I smart! Ha


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 08, 2019, 11:31 PM Post
Posts: 1710
Brew crew 92 said:
Brew crew 92 said:
1.)DH-national league
2.)1.25 million min salary

Gets non super two players extra 2.1 mil
DH will raise ave salary
Gets players % share of revenues closer to previous CBA
Leaving service time as is,along with luxury tax should appease owners


Peter Gammons was just on MLB radio and suggested as a possible answer to the potential labor strife > raising min salary first three years to
Somewhere between 1-2 mil. Simple solution. Boy am I smart! Ha


That would add like 20 million to the payroll... I'm not sure small market teams would be in favor of this. I like the simplified ideas, though. Something similar, sure.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 10, 2019, 7:09 PM Post
Posts: 12317
It was awhile ago but I thought at one time MLB player salaries were only about half of the operating costs for teams.

Fan is short for fanatic.
I blame Wang.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 11, 2019, 5:09 AM Post
Posts: 150
reillymcshane said:
How about this idea:

Players are granted Free Agency:

a) At the age of 28 after serving at least four full seasons in the majors (you could tweak the age - 28 is just an idea)
or
b) At the age of 30 - no matter how many years of service
or
c) After six full seasons (so basically how it is now). This allows guys who come up early to become FAs prior to age 28.

The team will control most players for at least four full years, and it gets a lot of players to free agency earlier. Also, it gets late bloomers to free agency at a point where they still have chance to score a decent contract.

Also, teams will have no incentive to keep a 23 year old player in the minors an extra month or two since he will be a FA in six years anyhow.

It doesn't really help the guys like Machado or Harper - who came up at age 19-20 - but that's okay. Those guys will be fine. The most they will have to play under their original team will be 6 years (but less than 7).

Just an idea. Pick it apart. Show me the downsides and upsides and sideways!


Your solution would make it even more difficult for a small market team to compete. They lose their own FAs earlier and don't have the resources that the cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc... have to replace them. With the monstrous discrepancy in money in MLB, smaller market teams are already at a distinct disadvantage. Earlier FA puts them in much more dire straits. Unless there was a hard cap that smaller markets could reach, earlier FA is not the answer.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 11, 2019, 7:14 AM Post
Posts: 4116
logan82 said:
It was awhile ago but I thought at one time MLB player salaries were only about half of the operating costs for teams.


That's a point I've been trying to keep in mind when all the discussion about where a team's payroll could be considering of how much money all of MLB's owners are supposedly printing with exploding league revenues. I always like to look at the Packers - essentially the only team required to show their financial books due to being "publicly owned" for comparison's sake. The Packers have the luxury of playing in a league with a well-established salary cap structure and extensive revenue sharing, huge revenues from TV/advertising contracts, a national following to maximize ticket sales and merchandise revenue, and are located in our backyard small market. They just had a record annual revenues in 2017, but also had a record level of expenses, generating a ~$35 Million dollar profit. The Packers' player payroll hit was much lower than 50% of their total operation expenses, too.

For an NFL team like the packers who operate with an established payroll structure to only have the ability of adding ~$35 Million in player salary if the salary cap were to evaporate before they weren't profitable speaks volumes - particularly when comparing them to the Brewers, who are at significant market disadvantages financially with most of their competition, don't operate in a league with established player payroll caps/limits, and still have 40 man roster + ~6 minor league affiliates and associated players/personnel to manage.

IMO, it is foolish to think MLB owners/management are colluding with one another when they essentially all play by their own financial sets of rules with player payroll and operating expenses. The advent of statistical data analysis coupled with the attempt to remove PEDs from the game that allowed good players to artificially extend their primes well into their 30s have reset a player's typical prime production years back to their mid 20's/early 30's. That just so happens to set right at the last couple years of salary arbitration plus the first couple years of FA for most players, and GMs have definitely shied away from offering prime level production to players in long term contracts that extend well beyond age 32-33 seasons. That's not collusion, that's just the market making common sense.

To fully balance things out, however, I do believe the current salary arbitration system that was essentially fortified during the steroid era's heyday needs to be slightly adjusted. I think removing 1 year of pre-arbitration from the 6 years of team control and replacing it with a restricted FA year would go a long way to shifting the % of dollars paid to players in their prime years instead of paying for past performance - I also think this strategy may help reduce teams from stockpiling MLB-ready prospects in the minors to try and shoot for contending in short windows before rebuilding. If there's a restricted free agent year, teams with a pile of good players under the same length of team control would risk losing a couple right when their window to contend would otherwise be opened the widest due to salary constraints if other organizations make offers they can't match. I think this would lead to more teams getting top prospects to the majors when they are ready instead of searching for excuses to keep them in the minors to try and get that age 28 or 29 MLB season under salary arbitration control.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 29, 2019, 9:42 AM Post
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Not a great look for MLB...

From The Athletic: ‘Ready to strike tomorrow’: How one $20 trinket captures the strife within a $10 billion industry

The article is behind a paywall, but here are a couple of short passages:

The​ Belt changes hands​ shortly after​ season’s end, in a crowded​ conference​ room at​ a luxury resort,​ where delegates​ from​ every MLB team have​​ been summoned for a symposium on arbitration. For three hours, they will work together at the direction of the league to set recommendations, which teams will use in negotiations with their players. It’s a thankless job. So before the meeting adjourns, they’ll celebrate an unsung hero in this battle over dollars. The ceremony ends with the presentation of a replica championship belt, awarded by the league to the team that did most to “achieve the goals set by the industry.” In other words: The team that did the most to keep salaries down in arbitration.

For the last few years, The Belt has been an urban legend of sorts, known mostly by player agents and the small circle of mid-level team officials tasked with the tedious process of arbitration. But its existence, confirmed to The Athletic by multiple sources, has emerged as a tangible example of the animosity that could plunge the sport into a bruising labor conflict.

........

In a statement, Major League Baseball acknowledged The Belt as “an informal recognition of those club’s salary arbitration departments that did the best.”

........

All of it has contributed to a sense among players of an uneven playing field. Some have even debated the merits of upending a quarter century of labor peace.

Said one veteran: “I’d be ready to strike tomorrow.”


To be fair, there is much, much more to the article, and the arbitration process is acknowledged as a slightly lesser issue when ranked among the current points of contention between the Players Association and League.

It does go on to say the league holds State of the Union style debriefings for all teams at Spring Training (two such meetings in both Arizona and Florida). They are given a booklet that includes data of each team's ability to align with the league's recommendations. Part of the presentation outlines the exact requirements to win "The Belt". If you are wondering, the Brewers weren't among the teams listed as qualifying as finalists for "The Belt".


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 29, 2019, 7:17 PM Post
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Teams collude to keep salaries low and the players/agents have openly stated they collude to keep them going up. I really don't care anymore about either side. Just figure something so baseball doesn't go away.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 29, 2019, 9:00 PM Post
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rickh150 said:

That would add like 20 million to the payroll... I'm not sure small market teams would be in favor of this. I like the simplified ideas, though. Something similar, sure.


Teams have already shed more than that by not paying for mediocre old players, it is a fair compromise.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 29, 2019, 9:02 PM Post
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jerichoholicninja said:
Teams collude to keep salaries low and the players/agents have openly stated they collude to keep them going up. I really don't care anymore about either side. Just figure something so baseball doesn't go away.


Collude isn't really a proper term. Teams have changed how they value players because data has suggested they should. Just because they all use the same data does not mean they colluded. Players have to change expectations at this point in certain situations. If they fail to it is completely on the players, not the owners.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 30, 2019, 7:38 AM Post
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Ennder said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Teams collude to keep salaries low and the players/agents have openly stated they collude to keep them going up. I really don't care anymore about either side. Just figure something so baseball doesn't go away.


Collude isn't really a proper term. Teams have changed how they value players because data has suggested they should. Just because they all use the same data does not mean they colluded. Players have to change expectations at this point in certain situations. If they fail to it is completely on the players, not the owners.


I totally agree. I was going to put the first collude in quotes but I didn't.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 30, 2019, 8:11 AM Post
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Ennder said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Teams collude to keep salaries low and the players/agents have openly stated they collude to keep them going up. I really don't care anymore about either side. Just figure something so baseball doesn't go away.


Collude isn't really a proper term. Teams have changed how they value players because data has suggested they should. Just because they all use the same data does not mean they colluded. Players have to change expectations at this point in certain situations. If they fail to it is completely on the players, not the owners.


I agree but that also means the owners are keeping a larger share of the revenue pie. Players will probably ask for less service time to free agency or service time starts after you reach the majors or three years in the minors to keep MLB teams from starting guys like Vlad in the minors.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: March 31, 2019, 9:26 PM Post
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homer said:
Ennder said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Teams collude to keep salaries low and the players/agents have openly stated they collude to keep them going up. I really don't care anymore about either side. Just figure something so baseball doesn't go away.


Collude isn't really a proper term. Teams have changed how they value players because data has suggested they should. Just because they all use the same data does not mean they colluded. Players have to change expectations at this point in certain situations. If they fail to it is completely on the players, not the owners.


I agree but that also means the owners are keeping a larger share of the revenue pie. Players will probably ask for less service time to free agency or service time starts after you reach the majors or three years in the minors to keep MLB teams from starting guys like Vlad in the minors.


And that is completely fair. The aging curves have changed and the value of young players is at an all time high. They probably need to do something about properly paying players earlier in their career.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: April 01, 2019, 8:21 PM Post
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At some point the union is going to have to look to the future, and realize that the players who aren't in the union yet are important to their financial future.

Until 36 year old players stop saying, "I want mine, now" that won't happen.

"I wasted so much time in my life hating Juventus or A.C. Milan that I should have spent hating the Cardinals." ~kalle8

Twitter: @MKEHiker
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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: April 01, 2019, 9:09 PM Post
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Baldkin said:
At some point the union is going to have to look to the future, and realize that the players who aren't in the union yet are important to their financial future.

Until 36 year old players stop saying, "I want mine, now" that won't happen.


They're in a tough spot. Younger players far outnumber the 36 year olds, but younger players often look to the veterans for leadership.

The union is supposed to represent all the players, but the salaries of those players are so disparate. This isn't like teachers or Teamsters or auto workers. Players are stratified, and the majority of the union members are never going to get paid in the upper strata. As much as the union has issues with team owners, there are union members who could/should have issues with other union members.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: April 02, 2019, 5:55 AM Post
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JimH5 said:
Baldkin said:
At some point the union is going to have to look to the future, and realize that the players who aren't in the union yet are important to their financial future.

Until 36 year old players stop saying, "I want mine, now" that won't happen.


They're in a tough spot. Younger players far outnumber the 36 year olds, but younger players often look to the veterans for leadership.

The union is supposed to represent all the players, but the salaries of those players are so disparate. This isn't like teachers or Teamsters or auto workers. Players are stratified, and the majority of the union members are never going to get paid in the upper strata. As much as the union has issues with team owners, there are union members who could/should have issues with other union members.


What's weird is there is almost a fraternity pledging aspect for some of these guys [disclosure - I was in a fraternity in college so I'm not trying to disparage all fraternities here]. I've seen tweets where some current and former players say something to the effect that going through the slog of the minor leagues shows "who really wants it." It's almost a point of pride for some players that they endured the grind of the minor leagues and they feel like all players should have to do in order to make the jump to the majors.

Just because a process is crappy and exploitative doesn't mean that it should always remain so.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: April 02, 2019, 6:41 AM Post
Posts: 1925
rickh150 said:
Brew crew 92 said:
Brew crew 92 said:
1.)DH-national league
2.)1.25 million min salary

Gets non super two players extra 2.1 mil
DH will raise ave salary
Gets players % share of revenues closer to previous CBA
Leaving service time as is,along with luxury tax should appease owners


Peter Gammons was just on MLB radio and suggested as a possible answer to the potential labor strife > raising min salary first three years to
Somewhere between 1-2 mil. Simple solution. Boy am I smart! Ha


That would add like 20 million to the payroll... I'm not sure small market teams would be in favor of this. I like the simplified ideas, though. Something similar, sure.


If you figure that a team has a dozen players that are prearby, that would be a lot. Then if the min wage went to $1.1M, that would be a an additional $6,540,000 of salary to that team.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: April 02, 2019, 6:56 AM Post
Posts: 4116
I think replacing one year of arbitration with a restricted free agency year makes alot of sense - provided the luxury tax system that has actually deterred huge market teams from spending like crazy remains in tact. I think that setup would give alot of the good/not great players a chance at a solid payday if a different team has a roster hole they ideally fit, without them having to wait until FA and be in the 2nd/3rd tier at their position and have to wait out the superstars to get their contracts before teams make them serious offers. Having it be restricted allows for the parent club to match an offer to keep a guy for one more year - to prevent shenanigans with guaranteed deals and retain organizational flexibility, there would need to be limits on # years and structuring of any restricted FA contract offers, but I'm sure they could sort it out.

This strategy would also incentivize getting homegrown superstars extended past their restricted FA period, paying them much more, much earlier in their careers.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: April 02, 2019, 8:07 AM Post
Posts: 1519
Location: Madison, WI
Eye Black said:
Not a great look for MLB...

From The Athletic: ‘Ready to strike tomorrow’: How one $20 trinket captures the strife within a $10 billion industry

The article is behind a paywall, but here are a couple of short passages:

The​ Belt changes hands​ shortly after​ season’s end, in a crowded​ conference​ room at​ a luxury resort,​ where delegates​ from​ every MLB team have​​ been summoned for a symposium on arbitration. For three hours, they will work together at the direction of the league to set recommendations, which teams will use in negotiations with their players. It’s a thankless job. So before the meeting adjourns, they’ll celebrate an unsung hero in this battle over dollars. The ceremony ends with the presentation of a replica championship belt, awarded by the league to the team that did most to “achieve the goals set by the industry.” In other words: The team that did the most to keep salaries down in arbitration.





Well, not really. "Keep salaries down in arbitration." That really doesn't make much sense, because if a player or group of players is getting low-balled, then they just see the arbitration process to completion and the arbitrator will award them the figure they've requested.

After the 300+ million dollar contracts earned by Harper and Machado, in addition to a bunch of notable large extensions, I would have figured the sports media would have laid off of this by now. But more of the tired billionaire versus millionaire class struggle that "journalists" will take up with one side just because they see that side as "labor," although the groundkeepers and hot dog vendors are as just as much a part of labor as the millionaires. If the sports media really wants to go here, why not talk about the Bucks 45 million dollar parking ramp, payed for by Milwaukee taxpayer dollars, and then look at the 140 positions that were cut by Milwaukee schools last year because of a 38 million dollar deficit.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: April 02, 2019, 10:43 AM Post
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Location: Green Bay, WI
Minor leaguers need union protection. Unless they are a "bonus baby", they aren't making a living wage.


For me, ultimately everything comes back to finding an equitable solution to revenue sharing and the issue with local TV contracts and the inequity they create. But you start with symptom of that issue first - the enormous wage gap issue. Pre-free agency players make peanuts in comparison to their actual worth in varying degrees (whether they are a role player or a major star), and then you have a class of aging stars making way more than they are worth. It's cliche... but there isn't really a middle class. So, the first obvious comment on that is there should be something done to raise the floor/minimum while placing an overall cap to suppress player salaries at the top (not suppressing player salaries in total - that should stay constant - you just wouldn't have as many players signed to these mega-deals as payroll is reallocated to younger players). But if you put in place a salary cap (which you could argue the Luxury tax already functions in place of this) while simultaneously mandating that salary minimums need to rise substantially, that now creates an extremely troublesome situation for teams who cannot support large payrolls. Their entire competitive model is based on acquiring young (i.e. "cheap") controllable talent, and then trade those assets for more controllable talent before they become too expensive. So now you have several teams who cannot afford to be competitive. So how do you maintain competitive balance? You have to have revenue shared equally between all teams. This is easily accomplished in the NFL because their TV contracts are handled at the national level by the league. In the MLB where you have regional sports networks, where the subscribers are paying to see only their regional team, well I don't see an obvious solution which is where my rampant incoherent paragraph ends!

The issues with MLB are institutional. You have to get the owners of the major-market teams to agree that for the betterment of the sport, they have to be willing to share their TV revenues equally which will place their competition on equal footing. I just don't know how you convince those owners to essentially be willing to not extract the maximum value out of their assets (TV contracts) in order to make their own competition better. Any resolution between MLB and the MLBPA is likely to be a band-aid treating the symptom of the issue with the sport, and not treating the root cause.


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Offline  Re: Is a strike looming, or is this fake news?
Posted: April 02, 2019, 11:30 AM Post
Posts: 816
JosephC said:
After the 300+ million dollar contracts earned by Harper and Machado, in addition to a bunch of notable large extensions, I would have figured the sports media would have laid off of this by now.


Opening day payroll went down for the second year in a row, while revenues increased (Or they did in 2017, we don't know about 2018 yet I don't think). As long as that keeps happening this will go on. The top tier of players were never the issue, Harper and Machado were always going to get paid.


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