LambeauLeap1250 WSSP


  
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next  [ 113 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply

Christian Yelich

Author Message
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#41

Posted: April 01, 2019, 2:14 PM Post
Posts: 10724
Oxy said:
owbc said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
You hate to say this out loud, but depending on what's going on with the Brewers at the time, he is a likely trade candidate in the second to last or last year of that deal. You could probably get the kind of haul in return that cities like MKE need to stay competitive.


Based on recent trades (e.g. Goldschmidt) it seems unlikely that the Brewers could net large enough of a return to not only offset Yelich's value but also offset the negative PR that would come from trading the new face of the franchise. But as you say, who knows where the team will be in a couple years. I'm hoping for an Astros-like run of sustained success.


However, it seems like he is being groomed to become the face of the franchise (if he isn't already) and a future legend.quote]

Okay lets pump the brakes a bit. He has one elite year. He needs like 3 more just to be on the Brewers mount Rushmore. It is exciting he started back up right where he left off last year though.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Online  Re: Christian Yelich
#42

Posted: April 01, 2019, 2:43 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1830
MrTPlush said:

However, it seems like he is being groomed to become the face of the franchise (if he isn't already) and a future legend.quote]

Okay lets pump the brakes a bit. He has one elite year. He needs like 3 more just to be on the Brewers mount Rushmore. It is exciting he started back up right where he left off last year though.


Of course. This isn't a franchise that just pumps out MVPs and 96 win seasons on the regular though. He isn't there yet, but it seems like he is being groomed to get there.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#43

Posted: April 01, 2019, 2:52 PM Post
Posts: 4097
Location: Madison, WI
I don't see the need to rush into an extension unless he gives a big time discount on it. As much as we can rip Braun's now, he did give a big time discount vs what he theoretically would've got in FA. If you can lock him in at 15-20 per year I mean yea do it, but if you're pumping out 30 mil per year anyway then what's the rush.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#44

Posted: April 01, 2019, 3:14 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 3334
MrTPlush said:
owbc said:
Looking at Braun's career, the Brewers have paid him about $2 million per 1 offensive WAR so I think they've gotten a pretty good deal overall.


I mean if that is what helps you rationalize a bad contract extension. I hear people say this all the time. They were separate transactions. You don't get to lump them together.


I'm pretty emotionally detached from these sorts of things and I still don't view Braun's deal as all that bad. Would you like to have the money free right now? Sure, but you could do a whole lot worse than what Braun is giving you. Braun also provides a lot of intangible value to the club. I think the players in MKE like him, he is a good veteran presence and last year you could almost always count on a good at bat. Aside from that, he is still beloved by fans and just simply known around the state. I couldn't explain why, but my 5 year-old was not interested in any jersey tee other than his. He barely knows the game and still demands we always see Braun bat.

Anybody would have signed Braun to the deal he got at the time he got it. There's always risk in any deal that size but I guess I don't see the deal as really impeding anything the team has done and still view him as a + player, not to mention a legend of the franchise.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#45

Posted: April 01, 2019, 3:30 PM Post
Posts: 91
Nothing against Yelich - I wouldn't be *sad* if we extended him - but I like that Stearns seems to like to spread his chips around.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#46

Posted: April 01, 2019, 8:31 PM Post
Posts: 1750
Let's have this conversation in 2021.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#47

Posted: April 02, 2019, 11:06 AM Post
Posts: 858
It's an interesting question. To get any kind of discount on market value, an extension would have to be signed as early as possible. The closer he gets to free agency while still a star player, the less incentive to sign an extension for below market value. He might not be interested in a discount at all of course, in which case extending him now makes little sense. The downside of a below-market extension now is of course that it brings risk with it, that like Braun the latter years will be less than ideal. 20m AAV or less and I'd say go for it; it's a risk but with tremendous upside. I'm also very much fine with waiting.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#48

Posted: April 02, 2019, 11:08 AM Post
User avatar
Global Moderator
Posts: 9943
rickh150 said:
Let's have this conversation in 2021.


I'm fine having it in 2020 if he keeps up his 2019 production.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#49

Posted: April 02, 2019, 11:23 AM Post
Posts: 1895
OldSchoolSnapper said:

My brother still argues with me to death that the Sabathia trade was bad because we mortgaged the farm. In his words it doesn't matter that LaPorta flamed out because we didn't know that at the time and therefore it was bad since we only got half a season of CC. It gives me a headache every time.


Michael Brantley would have been a big help at a very low price for several years. Same goes for Cain departing in the Greinke trade. I personally think the Brewers lost more chances to make the playoffs than they gained by making those two trades, and I think what they're doing now reflects the fact that Mark A learned his lesson (he has even said this, in so many words). If it's a last-gasp effort to win a title, by all means pull out all the stops, but they were doing this stuff when they had a great young core and a chance to have sustainable success. They weren't terrible trades or anything, but I think they were kind of short-sighted.

Now we don't see them giving up much value for short-term patches. Moustakas, Schoop, Claudio? Fine. But they aren't giving away excessive surplus value for short-term rentals anymore, and I'm very glad for that. The Yelich deal is exactly the type of opportunity you hold out for.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#50

Posted: April 02, 2019, 11:24 AM Post
Posts: 1895
Can they scrap his current deal to give him more money now, with the trade-off being him making a much longer commitment at a well below market price?

Still doesn't seem necessary or timely, but it might pay off.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#51

Posted: April 02, 2019, 11:41 AM Post
Posts: 4097
Location: Madison, WI
I think they can do that but I also don't think the team would want to. I'd assume they'd prefer to backload due to the high payroll this year already. Combine that with Braun coming off after next year and they free up some wiggle room then. Thames/Anderson also coming off soon along with every year gets close to the end of Cain's deal. But yea, if that's what you need to do to incentivize him to a discount well so be it.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#52

Posted: April 02, 2019, 9:04 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 10819
coolhandluke121 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:

My brother still argues with me to death that the Sabathia trade was bad because we mortgaged the farm. In his words it doesn't matter that LaPorta flamed out because we didn't know that at the time and therefore it was bad since we only got half a season of CC. It gives me a headache every time.


Michael Brantley would have been a big help at a very low price for several years. Same goes for Cain departing in the Greinke trade. I personally think the Brewers lost more chances to make the playoffs than they gained by making those two trades, and I think what they're doing now reflects the fact that Mark A learned his lesson (he has even said this, in so many words). If it's a last-gasp effort to win a title, by all means pull out all the stops, but they were doing this stuff when they had a great young core and a chance to have sustainable success. They weren't terrible trades or anything, but I think they were kind of short-sighted.

Now we don't see them giving up much value for short-term patches. Moustakas, Schoop, Claudio? Fine. But they aren't giving away excessive surplus value for short-term rentals anymore, and I'm very glad for that. The Yelich deal is exactly the type of opportunity you hold out for.



From 2011-2014 the Brewers got 16.9 WAR out of Carlos Gomez. Brantley was 12.4 WAR over that time frame. Cain was 14 WAR over that time frame. We got better production by trading these guys and getting Gomez.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#53

Posted: April 02, 2019, 9:23 PM Post
Posts: 16904
OldSchoolSnapper said:
MrTPlush said:
owbc said:
Looking at Braun's career, the Brewers have paid him about $2 million per 1 offensive WAR so I think they've gotten a pretty good deal overall.


I mean if that is what helps you rationalize a bad contract extension. I hear people say this all the time. They were separate transactions. You don't get to lump them together.


I'm pretty emotionally detached from these sorts of things and I still don't view Braun's deal as all that bad. Would you like to have the money free right now? Sure, but you could do a whole lot worse than what Braun is giving you. Braun also provides a lot of intangible value to the club. I think the players in MKE like him, he is a good veteran presence and last year you could almost always count on a good at bat. Aside from that, he is still beloved by fans and just simply known around the state. I couldn't explain why, but my 5 year-old was not interested in any jersey tee other than his. He barely knows the game and still demands we always see Braun bat.

Anybody would have signed Braun to the deal he got at the time he got it. There's always risk in any deal that size but I guess I don't see the deal as really impeding anything the team has done and still view him as a + player, not to mention a legend of the franchise.


Anybody would not have signed Braun to that deal at that time because I was against it at the time and the extension has not been worth the investment in my opinion from a pure production standpoint. Braun is certainly not a $20M a year open market player right now.

That being said, it certainly hasn't been an Albert Pujols type disaster and as you say they could have definitely done worse. I'm not sure what the intangible and leadership value is -- I honestly don't know. My preference at the time of his scandal was to distance ourselves from him and trade him. They went the other way. I do get it. They had to either distance themselves from him or throw their support behind him. They supported him.

With that said I can't understand the mentality of that deal and as it relates to Yelich now of extending a guy so many years away from free agency. As we found out with Braun so much can happen in 4 years and then if something goes wrong you're entirely on the hook as an organization which can hamstring us for years. There is zero benefit to rushing, it's not like the extension price for Yelich is going to be much higher in 2 years than it is now. Yelich is undef contract for 4 more seasons and thus has no real leverage in an extension right now, the idea of committing 30M a season or more as others have suggested to seasons 5+ years out in his 30s is just silly.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#54

Posted: April 02, 2019, 9:26 PM Post
Posts: 4160
coolhandluke121 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:

My brother still argues with me to death that the Sabathia trade was bad because we mortgaged the farm. In his words it doesn't matter that LaPorta flamed out because we didn't know that at the time and therefore it was bad since we only got half a season of CC. It gives me a headache every time.


Michael Brantley would have been a big help at a very low price for several years. Same goes for Cain departing in the Greinke trade. I personally think the Brewers lost more chances to make the playoffs than they gained by making those two trades, and I think what they're doing now reflects the fact that Mark A learned his lesson (he has even said this, in so many words). If it's a last-gasp effort to win a title, by all means pull out all the stops, but they were doing this stuff when they had a great young core and a chance to have sustainable success. They weren't terrible trades or anything, but I think they were kind of short-sighted.

Now we don't see them giving up much value for short-term patches. Moustakas, Schoop, Claudio? Fine. But they aren't giving away excessive surplus value for short-term rentals anymore, and I'm very glad for that. The Yelich deal is exactly the type of opportunity you hold out for.


If C.C., Greinke, and Marcum weren't acquired at those points, the Brewers aren't playoff teams in 2008 or 2011. I disagree that the Brewers would have somehow made the playoffs more frequently during that stretch by retaining Brantley, LaPorta, Zach Jackson, Rob Bryson, Brett Lawrie, Escobar, Cain, Jeffress, and Odorizzi instead of giving their core of young MLB talent the one thing it desperately needed at the time to give them a shot at the postseason - quality to ace-caliber starting pitching. The fact is, those teams weren't nearly as deep and talented as what Stearns has put together currently - and the prospects they gave up for getting those two postseason berths were well worth giving up. Had they not acquired those starters, 2018 could have easily been the sole postseason berth in this entire stretch.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#55

Posted: April 02, 2019, 10:29 PM Post
Posts: 2144
CC gave us the most exciting half season the franchise may have ever seen except maybe until Yelich last season. As a Brewer fan, I have never witnessed such a brilliant stretch of pure dominance from a pitcher. He electrified the team & fanbase while carry us to post season.

Greinke was an Ace we hadn’t had for a full season since Sheets & played major role in playoff run. Marcum was a great Robin to him until playoff time.

Those moves were huge for this team & did more for use than what keeping those guys would have. Brantley has been solid OF but he wasn’t going to carry us to playoffs. Odorizzi has been solid middle rotation guy but has never carried a staff or sniffed an all star level season. Lawrie has his moments but didn’t pan out to be star we thought he could be when younger. Escobar never grew at plate outside of one season. Laporta flamed out quick. Jeffress was not good any time he has been outside of Milwaukee. Cain I think became only one that may have hurt but Gomez starred for us & we had Braun & Hart at time... he was expandable.

None of guys we lost didn’t hurt us. All they did was cost us possible trades later. Juice worth the squeeze


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#56

Posted: April 03, 2019, 7:07 AM Post
Posts: 3421
clancyphile said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
clancyphile said:

Yelich is a very rare talent... and an extension turns the trade into a win for the Brewers.


Um ... what? You don't consider it a win already?


It's a probable win, but if Brinson, Diaz, Harrison, and Yamamoto become good assets for the Marlins, the deal gets closer to a draw.

Getting Yelich for another four years tips the balance more clearly in the Crew's favor, IMO.



Just the suggestion that this could POSSIBLY not be considered a MASSIVE win for the Brewers at any point is almost infuriating to me.

People are literally talking about if this is one of the greatest trades of all time and you're worried that Ymamamota may become a good asset for the Marlins making this deal a draw?P


My god people.....just enough. Enjoy watching one of the greatest runs you'll ever see a Brewer player put together, understand it's going to come to an end and this man is GOING to struggle again at some point, but that it's absolutely a win and that won't change if the 4th guy we traded to the Marlins becomes a back of the rotation starter!


We fleeced them! I still believe Brinson will become a good player. We still fleeced them. I like Diaz and Harrison. Fleeced them still.

MVP player-prime years-extremely team friendly deal.


It's the type of trade people on here suggest and then it gets dismissed because it never happens. We just happened to get Yelich one year before people would have started to suggest it.


I cannot think of one single good reason to spend 7 years and 210 million on a player who is 27 and who we control for 4 years yet. You're basically paying him what he'd likely get as a FA in AAV.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#57

Posted: April 03, 2019, 7:14 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 3334
adambr2 said:

Anybody would not have signed Braun to that deal at that time because I was against it at the time and the extension has not been worth the investment in my opinion from a pure production standpoint. Braun is certainly not a $20M a year open market player right now.

That being said, it certainly hasn't been an Albert Pujols type disaster and as you say they could have definitely done worse. I'm not sure what the intangible and leadership value is -- I honestly don't know. My preference at the time of his scandal was to distance ourselves from him and trade him. They went the other way. I do get it. They had to either distance themselves from him or throw their support behind him. They supported him.

With that said I can't understand the mentality of that deal and as it relates to Yelich now of extending a guy so many years away from free agency. As we found out with Braun so much can happen in 4 years and then if something goes wrong you're entirely on the hook as an organization which can hamstring us for years. There is zero benefit to rushing, it's not like the extension price for Yelich is going to be much higher in 2 years than it is now. Yelich is undef contract for 4 more seasons and thus has no real leverage in an extension right now, the idea of committing 30M a season or more as others have suggested to seasons 5+ years out in his 30s is just silly.


You can't have it both ways. He's not a $20mm open market player now, but he was probably more than that when they bought out years of his youth. I agree that it was excessive and generally it's not a good practice. But the fact is the majority of people and prognosticators thought Braun gave the team a discount. I guess you saw the light, but I'm just stating a fact that at the time the consensus was that they "got a deal." I'll repeat with specifics: Any baseball executive would have signed him to that deal. His first or second year in the league, Doug Melvin said every big market called to trade for him. Those teams would have happily forked over $200mm for him.

Also, I think the team has tried to trade him numerous times and just hasn't been able to close the deal. Ship has probably sailed now, but I think DS salivated as the thought of getting that budget flexibility back.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#58

Posted: April 03, 2019, 7:21 AM Post
Posts: 3421
OldSchoolSnapper said:
We don't have the 2018 we did without Yelich, so it is already a great trade for us. I don't really care if all those guys become stars, that was an amazing, fun year.

My brother still argues with me to death that the Sabathia trade was bad because we mortgaged the farm. In his words it doesn't matter that LaPorta flamed out because we didn't know that at the time and therefore it was bad since we only got half a season of CC. It gives me a headache every time.



I wouldn't agree with your brother, but I did think we should have been trying to acquire Grienke at that time rather than CC.

He was on the block and could have been traded and given that our AA team was so stacked with prospects that we now kinda forget about because they flamed out, we easily could have gotten Greinke for IIRC 4 years and kept out window for competing open longer. And it wouldn't have cost Brantley....who nobody foresaw becoming an all-star anyway. I think it was Gammons or Tim Kurk-not gonna try to spell it-who said that some rival executives said that AA team was one of the most prospect laden teams they'd ever seen. Angel Salome was hitting like .360 that year and looked like a future Pudge for instance.


I'd never agree with your brother. The CC trade was a awesome trade. But I did think at the time that I'd rather get guy who could become a fixture rather than a rental. And I fell in love with Greinke after he became a reliever and pitched against the Brewers. It was the first time I'd ever seen him pitch and his fastball, a mid 90's fastball had such ridiculous movement to it.



Anyway, it clearly wasn't a bad move. That's the bottom line.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#59

Posted: April 03, 2019, 7:31 AM Post
Posts: 3421
Ennder said:
coolhandluke121 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:

My brother still argues with me to death that the Sabathia trade was bad because we mortgaged the farm. In his words it doesn't matter that LaPorta flamed out because we didn't know that at the time and therefore it was bad since we only got half a season of CC. It gives me a headache every time.


Michael Brantley would have been a big help at a very low price for several years. Same goes for Cain departing in the Greinke trade. I personally think the Brewers lost more chances to make the playoffs than they gained by making those two trades, and I think what they're doing now reflects the fact that Mark A learned his lesson (he has even said this, in so many words). If it's a last-gasp effort to win a title, by all means pull out all the stops, but they were doing this stuff when they had a great young core and a chance to have sustainable success. They weren't terrible trades or anything, but I think they were kind of short-sighted.

Now we don't see them giving up much value for short-term patches. Moustakas, Schoop, Claudio? Fine. But they aren't giving away excessive surplus value for short-term rentals anymore, and I'm very glad for that. The Yelich deal is exactly the type of opportunity you hold out for.



From 2011-2014 the Brewers got 16.9 WAR out of Carlos Gomez. Brantley was 12.4 WAR over that time frame. Cain was 14 WAR over that time frame. We got better production by trading these guys and getting Gomez.


I don't agree that we cost ourselves anything by making these trades in terms of future playoff performances. I think we likely would have just cost ourselves the two we did make(though I hated the Marcum trade because of who we got back, just never a fan).

But the example you're using doesn't make sense to me. We could have played both Brantley and Gomez and had a really good OF. It's not like Gomez was traded for someone we acquired for some we got in one of these trades. We got lucky and Gomez was good for us. There's no direct correlation to those actual trades though.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Christian Yelich
#60

Posted: April 03, 2019, 7:34 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 3334
I think you have to be a curmudgeon to try to say the CC trade wasn't great. It rejuvenated a franchise that had been a laughing stock for almost three decades. I wouldn't care if every guy we dealt wound up an all-star. That run to the playoffs was badly needed. If watching Sabathia isn't one of the best moments as a Brewers fan I think you're someone who won't ever be satisfied - the kind of person who'd complain after winning the WS that we didn't win more. Those types exhaust me.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next  [ 113 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply
  


Who is online


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search this forum (phpBB search):
Jump to:  
Search entire board (Google search):
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Test