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Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL

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Offline  Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#1

Posted: June 24, 2019, 2:46 PM Post
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Tough blow. He was fun to watch.

https://twitter.com/cardinals/status/11 ... 84642?s=21


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#2

Posted: June 24, 2019, 3:01 PM Post
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Not counting the Cardinals out yet but this is a serious blow to their season.


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#3

Posted: June 24, 2019, 3:08 PM Post
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Torn UCL is probably 99% likely TJ right? I feel like I see guys with a UCL injury sometimes try to rehab it...but a tear is almost always TJ. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#4

Posted: June 24, 2019, 3:21 PM Post
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If the team announces it on Twitter the day after he throws, it’s likely clear cut and requiring Tommy John.


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#5

Posted: June 24, 2019, 4:13 PM Post
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Granted not everyone recovers from the surgery and returns to mound.
That said, many pitchers experience a bump up in fastball velocity...
Hicks was already around 105. IF he recovers fully and gets a bump up too, where is he at?? 108 -110?????


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#6

Posted: June 24, 2019, 4:23 PM Post
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Wonder if this means Carlos Martinez takes over as their closer? If so, they might not feel the loss as badly, assuming Martinez can still deliver in that role.


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#7

Posted: June 24, 2019, 4:45 PM Post
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MadThinker88 said:
Granted not everyone recovers from the surgery and returns to mound.
That said, many pitchers experience a bump up in fastball velocity...
Hicks was already around 105. IF he recovers fully and gets a bump up too, where is he at?? 108 -110?????


I think back when the Sid Finch thing was out there were a lot of articles afterward about how it is physically impossible to throw much harder than 105, not sure that was their number but if Hicks was hitting it I will use it. Sort of like how far a golf ball can be hit, yeah a lot more guys are hitting it long now but no one is getting 400 yards unless it rolls down hill. Probably a topic that has been discussed here before.


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#8

Posted: June 24, 2019, 5:00 PM Post
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turborickey said:
Wonder if this means Carlos Martinez takes over as their closer? If so, they might not feel the loss as badly, assuming Martinez can still deliver in that role.


That's hard to say. My guess is that the closer will be the guy with the best ERA, which isn't CMart.


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#9

Posted: June 24, 2019, 5:07 PM Post
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OldHeidelberg said:
MadThinker88 said:
Granted not everyone recovers from the surgery and returns to mound.
That said, many pitchers experience a bump up in fastball velocity...
Hicks was already around 105. IF he recovers fully and gets a bump up too, where is he at?? 108 -110?????


I think back when the Sid Finch thing was out there were a lot of articles afterward about how it is physically impossible to throw much harder than 105, not sure that was their number but if Hicks was hitting it I will use it.


I remember in the early 2000's some show did a study with Dr.'s and cadavers and they figured that the ligaments and tendons in a human arm couldn't hold up much past the force required to throw a ball 102 MPH.


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#10

Posted: June 24, 2019, 5:19 PM Post
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jerichoholicninja said:
OldHeidelberg said:
MadThinker88 said:
Granted not everyone recovers from the surgery and returns to mound.
That said, many pitchers experience a bump up in fastball velocity...
Hicks was already around 105. IF he recovers fully and gets a bump up too, where is he at?? 108 -110?????


I think back when the Sid Finch thing was out there were a lot of articles afterward about how it is physically impossible to throw much harder than 105, not sure that was their number but if Hicks was hitting it I will use it.


I remember in the early 2000's some show did a study with Dr.'s and cadavers and they figured that the ligaments and tendons in a human arm couldn't hold up much past the force required to throw a ball 102 MPH.


I suspect it's the same study mentioned in this article about Tim Linceum.

Throwing a baseball is an act of violence that has been graphically defined by Dr. James Andrews, Dr. Glenn Fleisig and the other doctors and clinicians at the American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) in Birmingham. From the loaded position, the shoulder, at its peak speed, rotates forward at 7,000 degrees per second. "That," Fleisig says, "is the fastest measured human motion of any human activity."

While in the loaded position, the shoulder and elbow bear the equivalent of about 40 pounds of force pushing down. When the ASMI biomechanists wanted to know how much more force an arm could take, they brought cadavers into the lab and pulled and pushed upon the elbow joint to find the breaking point. The cadavers's ligaments blew apart just after 40 pounds of force. "So a pitcher is just about at the maximum," Fleisig says.


By optimizing every aspect of the pitching movement, from feet all the way to the fingertips, there is perhaps more velocity to be squeezed out, perhaps a pitcher will throw 110 one day. But I do think we're near the breaking point (literally...) of what's possible to sustain over any length of time as far as velocity goes. Muscles can be strengthened, and you can prevent muscle injuries to a certain extent. But all the training in the world won't do much, if anything, to strengthen ligaments; there is only so much force a UCL can take.


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#11

Posted: June 25, 2019, 8:42 PM Post
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OldHeidelberg said:
MadThinker88 said:
Granted not everyone recovers from the surgery and returns to mound.
That said, many pitchers experience a bump up in fastball velocity...
Hicks was already around 105. IF he recovers fully and gets a bump up too, where is he at?? 108 -110?????


I think back when the Sid Finch thing was out there were a lot of articles afterward about how it is physically impossible to throw much harder than 105, not sure that was their number but if Hicks was hitting it I will use it. Sort of like how far a golf ball can be hit, yeah a lot more guys are hitting it long now but no one is getting 400 yards unless it rolls down hill. Probably a topic that has been discussed here before.



That was my understanding. Until man evolves, there's a limit to hard much stress you're going to be able to put on those ligaments.


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#12

Posted: June 25, 2019, 8:46 PM Post
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Dead Simmons said:
turborickey said:
Wonder if this means Carlos Martinez takes over as their closer? If so, they might not feel the loss as badly, assuming Martinez can still deliver in that role.


That's hard to say. My guess is that the closer will be the guy with the best ERA, which isn't CMart.



Who's the other young guy who was probably more talented than Hicks? The name is escaping me at the moment, but I thought he was a guy coming back from TJ and was even younger than Hicks.

Edit-NM, it was Reyes I was thinking of. I didn't realize how badly he was struggling in the minors this year.


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#13

Posted: June 25, 2019, 9:20 PM Post
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KeithStone53151 said:
Torn UCL is probably 99% likely TJ right? I feel like I see guys with a UCL injury sometimes try to rehab it...but a tear is almost always TJ. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.



Can you name a guy in this situation who's come back, pitched and not had a TJ surgery in the very near future?


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#14

Posted: June 25, 2019, 9:54 PM Post
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OnTheBlack said:
KeithStone53151 said:
Torn UCL is probably 99% likely TJ right? I feel like I see guys with a UCL injury sometimes try to rehab it...but a tear is almost always TJ. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.



Can you name a guy in this situation who's come back, pitched and not had a TJ surgery in the very near future?


Didn’t knebel get about 4 years out of his PRP?


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#15

Posted: June 26, 2019, 6:08 AM Post
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OnTheBlack said:
Dead Simmons said:
turborickey said:
Wonder if this means Carlos Martinez takes over as their closer? If so, they might not feel the loss as badly, assuming Martinez can still deliver in that role.


That's hard to say. My guess is that the closer will be the guy with the best ERA, which isn't CMart.



Who's the other young guy who was probably more talented than Hicks? The name is escaping me at the moment, but I thought he was a guy coming back from TJ and was even younger than Hicks.

Edit-NM, it was Reyes I was thinking of. I didn't realize how badly he was struggling in the minors this year.
That's right. Reyes is looking like a real bust. In spite of his stuff, he just can't win. All arm, no brain.


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#16

Posted: June 26, 2019, 9:48 PM Post
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OnTheBlack said:
KeithStone53151 said:
Torn UCL is probably 99% likely TJ right? I feel like I see guys with a UCL injury sometimes try to rehab it...but a tear is almost always TJ. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.



Can you name a guy in this situation who's come back, pitched and not had a TJ surgery in the very near future?


Masahiro Tanaka


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Offline  Re: Cardinals’ flamethrower Jordan Hicks: torn UCL
#17

Posted: June 27, 2019, 2:04 AM Post
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Sal Bando said:
OnTheBlack said:
KeithStone53151 said:
Torn UCL is probably 99% likely TJ right? I feel like I see guys with a UCL injury sometimes try to rehab it...but a tear is almost always TJ. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.



Can you name a guy in this situation who's come back, pitched and not had a TJ surgery in the very near future?


Masahiro Tanaka



I'd thought Tanaka had had one. I thought wrong. Knebel did get 4 years out of his. I guess my point was when you hear about this, guys are pretty much always going under the knife. Knebel likely goes with the platmate rich injections again if he wasn't set to be a FA after next year.

I'm sure there's a few others, but of the last 100 pitchers who waited and went that route, I'd guess 4 or 5 actually succeeded and came back and even then you've got Knebel who needs the surgery(though he looked pretty damn strong, so there's nothing that says he wouldn't have needed it either way at this point).

I just kinda meant this almost always ends up in Tommy John.

But good examples. I thought about Knebel and was wrong about Tanaka.


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