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Dubon being called up

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Offline  Re: Dubon being called up
#81

Posted: July 10, 2019, 4:32 PM Post
Posts: 18985
HiAndTight said:
Brew crew 92 said:

First a statement: THE BALL IS JUICED. Everybody’s on pace for 25 home runs, or more.

Now a question, if Arcia is playing plus defense, why the criticism of his defense from Counsell?


Also, both these statements can be true;
Arcia is playing plus defense AND "it’s not been to the level it was in the past.” That was what Counsell said about him. He wasn't playing AS good as he has in the past.

Also, since this is basically a debate between Arcia and Dubon, Dubon is hitting the same balls Arcia is, just at a lower level and I don't think even the Maurico's father here believe that he's going to defend better than Arcia.


Sorry, H&T, I just can't personally agree with us. You don't make that kind of a move (DFA Perez and start Saladino over Arcia half the time) if Arcia simply isn't as good as he was in the past defensively, but *is* elite. I expect Counsell to be somewhat diplomatic, and he was, but in no uncertain terms he said Arcia isn't getting it done defensively, IMO.

That's a pretty extreme statement to bring in a 30 year old, 67 OPS+ career journeyman to take playing time from your 25 year old young SS. You don't do that unless you're pretty strongly dissatisfied.

Do I think Dubon will defend as well as Arcia, I really have no idea, I know Arcia is capable of more, but from I believe about the statement and circumstances, Arcia's defense right now isn't good enough right now to even make Counsell comfortable with him starting every day, much less being near elite.


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Offline  Re: Dubon being called up
#82

Posted: July 10, 2019, 4:35 PM Post
Posts: 3060
HiAndTight said:
Brew crew 92 said:

First a statement: THE BALL IS JUICED. Everybody’s on pace for 25 home runs, or more.

Now a question, if Arcia is playing plus defense, why the criticism of his defense from Counsell?



First statement, so is that the reason that we don't have 4 aces in our rotation right now like you said we would with another on his way up next year?

Also, no, not everyone is on pace for 25 HR's.

Also, both these statements can be true;
Arcia is playing plus defense AND "it’s not been to the level it was in the past.” That was what Counsell said about him. He wasn't playing AS good as he has in the past.

Also, since this is basically a debate between Arcia and Dubon, Dubon is hitting the same balls Arcia is, just at a lower level and I don't think even the Maurico's father here believe that he's going to defend better than Arcia.


Telling how you can’t just stick to the subject at hand, which unlike you I will.

Arcia is not playing defense at anything close to an elite level, hence the criticism from Counsell. So you can word it how you like, but CC is probably TEMPERING his criticism of his defense publicly.

Juiced ball home runs notwithstanding from both. Like I said in this thread earlier today, I saw more hitting skill from Dubon in his one MLB ab than I saw from Arcia in 2+ years of ABs.


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Offline  Re: Dubon being called up
#83

Posted: July 10, 2019, 4:51 PM Post
Posts: 93
Location: Mequon
HiAndTight said:
Wahoo Maniac said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Arcia isn't the problem with our offense this year, that trophy is more of a Stanley Cup passed around among Cain, Aguilar and Shaw. But that doesn't mean Arcia is good.

I think the initial honeymoon over his defense is ending and we are left with what appears to be a mediocre player. That doesn't mean it'll be what he is forever, but that is what he's been, and what he is right now. Kinda feel the same about Arcia as I do about Braun right now. I'm not under any delusion that either is more than what they are. They're not very good, but if the guys above weren't absolutely dreadful and we had a pitching staff we'd probably have 55 wins and nobody would really care.

Disagree as I'd still care. The number of wins a team has is irrelevant to me. If a change needs to be made you make it. If Arcia was playing plus defense his inconsistent bat can be overlooked but this isn't the case. You upgrade where you can, when you can.



Really? So you don't care if a team has 116 wins or 69 wins? Hmm...I suspect that's nonsense!

And Arcia is absolutely still playing plus defense, hitting for power, though he is very inconsistent.

But this is a good question. "You upgrade where you can when you can." Well, Brandon Woodruff is not one of the top 5 starting pitchers in baseball! I don't care how good he's doing, they need to upgrade?


Seriously though, OBVIOUSLY OldschoolSnapper is right. If Cain, Shaw and Aguilar were performing like they did last year and Chacin, Burnes were meeting expectations, and our BP wasn't hit by the injury bug...or really just any one of those, NOBODY would care about our glove-first SS who's on pace for about 25 Hr's and has an OPS around .700. Especially since I don't think anyone wants to give up the assets it'd cost to actually find a real improvement.

Huh? The Brewers won 96 games last year and TWICE they demoted Arcia to AAA because he wasn't getting the job done. This year they're on pace for 84 wins and are currently 1/2 game out of first in the division and they just removed Arcia from his every day job. I don't even have to make the argument for it to be true because the Brewers have been doing it for over a year for me.

Seriously though, OBVIOUSLY the Brewers didn't care last year that the offense was performing great and the team was winning when deciding to demote Arcia TWICE.

If Arcia was "absolutely still playing plus defense" then he'd be the every day SS still instead of sharing time with Saladino and Perez might still be on the MLB team. Counsell literally stated that they're unhappy with Arcia's defense, which is exactly why Saladino was up taking half his PT. The Brewers themselves just keep proving you wrong, don't they.

"You upgrade where you can when you can" was clearly in reference to someone performing like Arcia has (ie someone who's replaceable) and not someone who's actually performing (ie Woodruff, Hader, Yelich, etc). Mod Removed


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Offline  Re: Dubon being called up
#84

Posted: July 10, 2019, 5:20 PM Post
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Posts: 8244
Wahoo Maniac said:
Seriously though, OBVIOUSLY the Brewers didn't care last year that the offense was performing great and the team was winning when deciding to demote Arcia TWICE.


Arcia WAS a problem last year, but he is performing better this year offensively. If his defense matched previous seasons, he'd be having a good year as a SS. The question is, what happened with the D? Clearly, he didn't lose the ABILITY to play good defense, so I'm sure the org is trying to get the message home that he needs to play his position better, which is very possible for him to do.

It seems counterintuitive to bash Arcia and his.5 WAR this year while defending Ryan Braun and his .6 WAR, when one is in the decline of his career and the other still has potential.


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Offline  Re: Dubon being called up
#85

Posted: July 10, 2019, 6:55 PM Post
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Posts: 4309
Yeah, those two things aren't the same. Arcia is at least an MLB hitter this year. He was not for a major chunk of last season.


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Offline  Re: Dubon being called up
#86

Posted: July 10, 2019, 7:05 PM Post
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Posts: 327
Frankly, without going back and digging deep into the archives to know for sure, I'm guessing those that are bagging on Arcia were also anti-Segura. The kid is 24. I would have loved to have seen what half the people laying the hammer down here were doing at 24. Personally, the best thing I did at 24 was shotgun beers in the MP parking lot. Baseball player, accountant, insurance salesman, foundry worker, whatever the career path. Sometimes it just takes time to figure it out.


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Offline  Re: Dubon being called up
#87

Posted: July 10, 2019, 7:21 PM Post
Posts: 93
Location: Mequon
PeaveyFury said:
Wahoo Maniac said:
Seriously though, OBVIOUSLY the Brewers didn't care last year that the offense was performing great and the team was winning when deciding to demote Arcia TWICE.


Arcia WAS a problem last year, but he is performing better this year offensively. If his defense matched previous seasons, he'd be having a good year as a SS. The question is, what happened with the D? Clearly, he didn't lose the ABILITY to play good defense, so I'm sure the org is trying to get the message home that he needs to play his position better, which is very possible for him to do.

It seems counterintuitive to bash Arcia and his.5 WAR this year while defending Ryan Braun and his .6 WAR, when one is in the decline of his career and the other still has potential.

First off, my statement that you quoted you're taking completely out of context. Just like the other guy. That was in regard to multiple posters calling my opinion "silly" and "nonsense" because I'd improve a deficiency with an internal option, one I believe is ready to take over and outperform, regardless of the number of wins the team had. Those posters essentially said nobody would do anything and nobody would complain about Arcia if several others on the team were performing to their ability (ie Chacin, Cain, Shaw, Aguilar) because the team would be doing better. My statement, which you quoted, directly contradicts their take and I used the Brewers decisions since last year as examples/proof - the team was performing well offensively and ended up winning 96 games and in the process they demoted Arcia TWICE.

It doesn't matter if Arcia is performing better this year over last year, which he is but only from an offensive standpoint. That doesn't automatically mean he's performing just fine. He's not. I've already showed the numbers break down proving his continued inconsistencies. That's not good. He's about to be 25 and he's still all over the place offensively after 400 MLB games. And his defense is not only average this year it's a sizeable regression. If you put any weight into DRS he's regressed from 6 to 4 to currently -1 this year. DRS definitely isn't the be-all-end-all but the eye test pretty much confirms it, which is why Saladino is up taking starts from him. Which has also been confirmed by Counsell that his defense is an issue. I've stated plenty of times over the past couple days that if Arcia's defense was what it was over the past 2yrs he'd still be starting every day and people would overlook his offensive inconsistencies. But that's not the case. He's a below average bat with average defense right now. That's not bashing him. That's just the reality of it. Just because he has month long good stretches offensively doesn't mean he's performing offensively. Since you brought my take on Braun into it, maybe you should go back and watch the AS game again and let me know how many times Buck discussed pitchers or batters stretches (both negative and positive) to paint a picture of their ability. I'm not saying completely ignore Braun's worthless 10 game stretch - I'm saying his overall numbers don't reflect the season he's actually had because his brief (13% of PAs) worthless stint was so bad that it dragged down his numbers from 300/352/830+ to 271/320/774. Not sure why that's so difficult to comprehend. If Braun was consistently performing at his current overall stat line there'd be nothing to say because that's what he'd be doing but that's not the case. When you're garbage 33% of the time like Arcia that's not good unless you're a plus glove.

WAR ignores plenty of variables/qualities players possess that aren't measured by one's overall stat line that impact the game. WAR is for lazy people looking for a quick answer to back their stance.

I'm not bashing Arcia. I have no problem with Arcia and said earlier today I think he figures it out on both sides of the both moving forward but it'll probably happen at the end of his rookie contract or shortly after. If Dubon wasn't ready I wouldn't be having this discussion or hold this opinion. I'm saying what I'm saying because we have an internal option who's MLB ready who I believe will outperform Arcia. It's pretty straight forward. But Arcia lovers are taking offense to every point and taking what I've stated out of context and have done so several times already.


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Offline  Re: Dubon being called up
#88

Posted: July 10, 2019, 7:30 PM Post
Posts: 93
Location: Mequon
TigerUppercut said:
Frankly, without going back and digging deep into the archives to know for sure, I'm guessing those that are bagging on Arcia were also anti-Segura. The kid is 24. I would have loved to have seen what half the people laying the hammer down here were doing at 24. Personally, the best thing I did at 24 was shotgun beers in the MP parking lot. Baseball player, accountant, insurance salesman, foundry worker, whatever the career path. Sometimes it just takes time to figure it out.

Got it. Because I wasn't born with MLB athleticism and gifts I'll just keep my mouth shut. Great way to approach life in general!


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Offline  Re: Dubon being called up
#89

Posted: July 10, 2019, 8:03 PM Post
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Posts: 1375
Boy from all these threads it's obvious we need this team to start winning games or we're gonna start having addresses posted and in-person fighting occurring.

"Did I ever tell you how I became a Postman Abby? I don't know if you'd laugh or cry"-The Postman


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Offline  Re: Dubon being called up
#90

Posted: July 10, 2019, 8:26 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 327
Wahoo Maniac said:
TigerUppercut said:
Frankly, without going back and digging deep into the archives to know for sure, I'm guessing those that are bagging on Arcia were also anti-Segura. The kid is 24. I would have loved to have seen what half the people laying the hammer down here were doing at 24. Personally, the best thing I did at 24 was shotgun beers in the MP parking lot. Baseball player, accountant, insurance salesman, foundry worker, whatever the career path. Sometimes it just takes time to figure it out.

Got it. Because I wasn't born with MLB athleticism and gifts I'll just keep my mouth shut. Great way to approach life in general!


Now there's a fresh, hot take. So you're born with major league gifts and by default, your development is held to a different standard than the rest of society?

Word, bird. Thank God the lunatic fringe isn't running the team.


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Offline  Re: Dubon being called up
#91

Posted: July 11, 2019, 8:51 AM Post
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Global Moderator
Posts: 10859
Locking the thread. Several of you REALLY need to tone down the snark and condescension. Ideas and people are not silly....unless, of course, you want Bill Hall to join the rotation. If you want to refute someone's argument do so as an adult or you'll be asked to leave either temporarily or permanently.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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