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MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?

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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#21

Posted: July 12, 2019, 6:22 AM Post
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It's not about bunts. It's about the tedium of watching so many long at bats that end in a walk or strikeout.

But I'm not sure that players are upset by that, as much as they are the hollowing out of the middle class, the supression of earnings by manipulation of service time, the length of time to arbitration and free agency, etc.

Players are under team control--and their pay is dictated by the teams--for too much of their careers.


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#22

Posted: July 12, 2019, 6:49 AM Post
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Roderick said:
treego14 said:
https://www.usatoday.com/videos/sports/mlb/whatimhearing/2019/07/11/mlb-players-furious-willing-strike-over-economic-system/1708461001/

I wonder why that is ... maybe because there is no salary cap or revenue sharing like the NFL has. But, I don't think the players union wants either one of those things ... wah! wah! wah!


Huh? Obviously the players would love revenue sharing by the teams. I'm sure that would mean more money for them in the long run. It just isn't going to happen, and there isn't much the players could force to happen. How are they going to get the Dodgers to give the Brewers part of their local TV contract? They would be picking a fight with the hand that feeds them.


In 1994 the owners proposed sharing all broadcast revenues equally among the teams, granting free agency after four years of service time, as well as a salary cap and salary floor, and the players walked out on strike over it.

If your for the players in that they need to be better compensated; you for driving a knife into the back of teams like the Brewers. It’s hard enough for teams without a huge media market to win, when LA, NY, Houston and Chicago are spending twice what they are. To further widen the disparity between those teams by paying players more earlier in their careers, cutting their service time requirements before free agency, forcing teams to field mediocre clubs for no other reason than ‘tanking’ is frowned on by the MLBPA, means the Brewers will always be irrelevant turning over their roster every couple years as a talent incubator for the big clubs.

The George Steinbrenner owner who pours buckets of his own personal money into his team are all gone. Owners like Attanasio, Mark Walter, Bruce Sherman buy these teams because they’re the ultimate investment. Attanasio, for example, paid 223 million for the Brewers 15 years ago. Major League teams are now selling for close to one billion dollars. Meaning if he sold today he’d likely walk away with a 300-400% return on his money in just 15 years. Dumping his own money into the team only takes away from the return on his investment. Sure, a little here and there happens but it’s temporary and infrequent. That’s the way it is with all the wealth management executives buying up the teams, owning teams is an investment now not a rich person’s toy, and the players are just slow to realize it


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#23

Posted: July 12, 2019, 7:19 AM Post
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None of us have any idea how much the Brewers or any other team can afford in payroll. Your own recognition that the team value has skyrocketed during Attanasio's ownership suggests that they could have afforded more in payroll during that time.


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#24

Posted: July 12, 2019, 7:20 AM Post
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yfinn6 said:
rickh150 said:
The players are full of it..... they are coming off as huge entitled pricks in a more and more tough to watch sport (more K's, longer games, more dead time, less strategy with bunts and steals) that is driving folks away already. Throw in a strike? Brutal damage to the game.



It's difficult to wrap my head around the idea that more bunts will make the game more exciting and increase fan attendance. I would love to watch the conversation of a potential employee trying to convince a GM that more bunts will let his team score more runs after they had mashed homeruns the previous year and set a club scoring record (not referring to the Brewers here).

Fans may not be going to the games for any number of reasons; one of the main reasons likely being cost.


The game is slow and long. I like baseball and all, but come on.... this is obvious.
More action in the game, more steals and balls put in play, less long counts, more strategy in general rather than waiting for the big HR.... more of this is needed. Too much of the game is between pitcher and catcher.


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#25

Posted: July 12, 2019, 7:20 AM Post
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JimH5 said:
Jopal78! said:
Siding with the players? First of all, any sort of collusion or owners keeping the players down is MLBPA propaganda. The facts are 25 of the 30 teams had opening day payrolls of over 100 million dollars. In 2011 less than half the teams had 100 million in payroll commitments so the total money being spent on player salaries has only gone up. The players gripe apparently is that they should be getting a bigger piece of the total revenue.

I think baseball has reached a great point where teams have wised up and realized giving long term guaranteed contracts to men as they age into their mid and late 30s is usually a decision they’ll come to regret. And it’s a silly notion that teams should for out a 20 million dollar per season multi year contract because they can.

Further many teams are now owned by wealth management billionaires; they’re the last group of people who are going to hand out 50 million dollars for non-contending club to win 75 games instead of 70.


Average MLB payroll is $135 million, down from $139 million in 2018 and $140 million in 2017.

As an employee, if you saw your employer cutting payroll, you might find that objectionable.


If players didn't gamble and refuse very generous one year qualifying offers almost unanimously, overall payroll would have been up not down. That's on them, not the owners.


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#26

Posted: July 12, 2019, 7:27 AM Post
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This is truly disgusting, players want more money, really, haven't gone to game in 5 years because I just can't a afford to take a family of four.
I know it's not that simple but hard cap and a hard minimum. International player that want to come over are put in a draft, not just for the rich teams anymore. Have tiers of free agency, the most expensive you lose your 1st round pick so on and so forth. Or if your team is in lower market your team gets draft compensation. Hated it when we lost Sabathia and did not receive any comp because the Yankees signed another mover expensive player (name escapes me ).


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#27

Posted: July 12, 2019, 7:31 AM Post
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More Revenue sharing and salary cap.... that will take care of many of the player association's issues.
If the big markets object to this, as sure as is expected, then perhaps wiggle room ala the NBA and exceptions could be brought in. Perhaps exceptions to signing your own drafted players to FA deals could be worked in. Maybe a soft cap could be used, but then again, a luxury tax is sort of that right now.


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#28

Posted: July 12, 2019, 7:33 AM Post
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Hitters aging quicker in baseball has nothing to do with analytics. It has everything to do with more and more pitchers throwing 95 plus. Just watch Braun try to cheat on fastballs and look foolish swinging at breaking balls a foot off the plate. Ben Sheets was a power pitcher. His fastball on a good day sat at 94 and touched 95. Now most rotations feature at least 3 starters who cruise at 95-96, and pens have multiple guys 97-100.


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#29

Posted: July 12, 2019, 7:44 AM Post
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JohnBriggs12 said:
Hitters aging quicker in baseball has nothing to do with analytics. It has everything to do with more and more pitchers throwing 95 plus. Just watch Braun try to cheat on fastballs and look foolish swinging at breaking balls a foot off the plate. Ben Sheets was a power pitcher. His fastball on a good day sat at 94 and touched 95. Now most rotations feature at least 3 starters who cruise at 95-96, and pens have multiple guys 97-100.


Hitters are aging quicker?

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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#30

Posted: July 12, 2019, 7:47 AM Post
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I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?


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#31

Posted: July 12, 2019, 7:51 AM Post
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Brew4U said:
I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?


Runs/game are roughly the same as they were 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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#32

Posted: July 12, 2019, 7:55 AM Post
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Brew4U said:
I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?


Is that why teams are scoring runs at a record pace? Half of baseball is scoring at a 4.91 clip or higher and 13 teams are at 5 runs a game or more.

2019: 15
2018: 5
2017: 9
2016: 3
2015: 1
2014: 0
2013: 1
2012: 1
2011: 3
2010: 3

Dominating pitching being a problem seems about 5 years too late as an argument.


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#33

Posted: July 12, 2019, 7:59 AM Post
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homer said:
Brew4U said:
I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?


Runs/game are roughly the same as they were 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago.


What's telling about that number is the runs/game are basically the same even though there's the perception that more HR = more scoring. MLB is turning into slow pitch softball with hitters' all or nothing approach at the plate - which is hardly entertaining compared to lineups that put more priority on contact and situational hitting, IMO


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#34

Posted: July 12, 2019, 8:02 AM Post
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Fear The Chorizo said:
homer said:
Brew4U said:
I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?


Runs/game are roughly the same as they were 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago.


What's telling about that number is the runs/game are basically the same even though there's the perception that more HR = more scoring. MLB is turning into slow pitch softball with hitters' all or nothing approach at the plate - which is hardly entertaining compared to lineups that put more priority on contact and situational hitting, IMO


I think the avid baseball fan appreciates contact and situational hitting, but the casual fan digs the long ball. MLB has been making a concerted effort to appeal to that casual fan for years, and the juiced baseball is just another attempt at doing that. The avid fan is going to tune in regardless ... but the casual fan has no interest in watching station-to-station, bunting and sacrifices.


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#35

Posted: July 12, 2019, 8:03 AM Post
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homer said:
JohnBriggs12 said:
Hitters aging quicker in baseball has nothing to do with analytics. It has everything to do with more and more pitchers throwing 95 plus. Just watch Braun try to cheat on fastballs and look foolish swinging at breaking balls a foot off the plate. Ben Sheets was a power pitcher. His fastball on a good day sat at 94 and touched 95. Now most rotations feature at least 3 starters who cruise at 95-96, and pens have multiple guys 97-100.


Hitters are aging quicker?


Wouldn't be a problem if they all got on the Barry Bonds workout plan that so many MLB players were on 10+ years ago.

As much as the assumption is that you don't pay older pitchers big money, this year the exact opposite is true:

fWAR top 25 batters and their age:
Mike Trout = 27
Cody Bellinger = 23
Christian Yelich = 27
Alex Bregman = 25
Ketel Marte = 25
Xander Bogaerts = 26
Matt Chapman = 26
Peter Alonso = 24
Kris Bryant = 27
Yoan Moncada = 24
Rafael Devers = 22
Javier Baez = 26
Nolan Arenado = 28
DJ LeMahieu = 30
Marcus Semien = 28
Yasmani Grandal = 30
Ronald Acuna = 21
Anthony Rendon = 29
Trevor Story = 26
Carlos Santana = 33
Mookie Betts = 26
Jorge Polanco = 26
Max Muncy = 28
Max Kepler = 26
Eduardo Escobar = 30
Average age = 26.52

That's pretty incredible. Only 1 player above the age of 30. And 3 more at 30. 80+% of the list are still in their 20's.

I'm not going to list all the pitchers, but there are way more 30+ year olds on the fWAR list of pitchers:
1. Max Scherzer = 34
2. Lance Lynn = 32
3. Charlie Morton = 35
4. Jacob deGrom = 31
5. Stephen Strasburg = 30
8. Zack Greinke = 35
9. Hyun-Jin Ryu = 32
11. Brandon Woodruff = 26 (doesn't fit the 30+ club but I'll list him anyway)
14. Mike Minor = 31
18. Chris Sale = 30
22. Cole Hamels = 35
24. Justin Verlander = 36
25. Masahiro Tanaka = 30
Average age of top 25 = 29.52
Top of the list dominated by 30+ year old's, and 30+ year old's make up just slightly less than 50% of the list.


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#36

Posted: July 12, 2019, 8:06 AM Post
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JohnBriggs12 said:
JimH5 said:
Jopal78! said:
Siding with the players? First of all, any sort of collusion or owners keeping the players down is MLBPA propaganda. The facts are 25 of the 30 teams had opening day payrolls of over 100 million dollars. In 2011 less than half the teams had 100 million in payroll commitments so the total money being spent on player salaries has only gone up. The players gripe apparently is that they should be getting a bigger piece of the total revenue.

I think baseball has reached a great point where teams have wised up and realized giving long term guaranteed contracts to men as they age into their mid and late 30s is usually a decision they’ll come to regret. And it’s a silly notion that teams should for out a 20 million dollar per season multi year contract because they can.

Further many teams are now owned by wealth management billionaires; they’re the last group of people who are going to hand out 50 million dollars for non-contending club to win 75 games instead of 70.


Average MLB payroll is $135 million, down from $139 million in 2018 and $140 million in 2017.

As an employee, if you saw your employer cutting payroll, you might find that objectionable.


If players didn't gamble and refuse very generous one year qualifying offers almost unanimously, overall payroll would have been up not down. That's on them, not the owners.


There were only 7 qualifying offers issued last offseason, and 9 the previous year. Whether or not individual players accepted those offers has more to do with the state of free agency in general than the overall drop in industry payroll by $150 million.


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#37

Posted: July 12, 2019, 8:08 AM Post
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MrTPlush said:
Brew4U said:
I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?


Is that why teams are scoring runs at a record pace? Half of baseball is scoring at a 4.91 clip or higher and 13 teams are at 5 runs a game or more.

2019: 15
2018: 5
2017: 9
2016: 3
2015: 1
2014: 0
2013: 1
2012: 1
2011: 3
2010: 3

Dominating pitching being a problem seems about 5 years too late as an argument.


The change in the ball being used has more to do with that than anything. The mlb wanted more runs, they got their wish.


Last edited by Brew4U on July 12, 2019, 8:09 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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#38

Posted: July 12, 2019, 8:08 AM Post
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Lots of good discussion on this topic. I have not attended many games over the past 10 years. Part of that is that I'm not close to Milwaukee to see my team, but the main thing is that costs far exceed the benefit to me. As my family has grown, so do the number of tickets I need to purchase. I can get into the stadium with a cheap seat, but that is not that enjoyable to me anymore. The seats I want to sit in cost close to a hundo a piece. So that starts me off at $300 a game (soon to be $400 in the near future). That doesn't get me any food or drinks. I would argue that is one of the big drivers in reduced attendance. Next time you're at a game, take a peek at the dispersion of fans in the different sections (box seats, reserved, cheat seats, etc.) to see where people are buying and attending. I would bet that "middle class" of tickets are probably a bit more barren. Just a guess. I'd much rather go to a minor league game and sit in the box seats for $12-14 a piece. It also doesn't help that TV has become such a convenient way to watch a game without the huge costs. Cannibalizing ticket sales most likely.

Baseball has a few issues to deal with on both sides. First topic is dispersion of salary. Starts with what percentage goes to the player pool. Set a percentage and use that as the base. Owners and Players need to be honest and accept they both need each other. Owners do not have a business without players and vice versa. Second, fair playing field for team spending. You cannot keep this up with the vast difference between have and have nots of big and small markets. Third, make sure that spending is "uniform" with a cap and floor. Fourth, pay players across the board to include minor leaguers. It's sickening how little minor leaguers get paid. Pay them enough so that every player can focus on baseball 100% and not have to get part time jobs to survive. I'm fine with the level of control that teams have for developing players, but I'd like to see their salaries go up a bit. I really dislike the Arbitration process, this seems like it should be able to be simplified in terms of how to allot salaries. If you lower the years of team control, I would wager that you would see more of the service time manipulation to ensure you get the max performance at the cheapest rate. This means no learning at the MLB level. As a fan, I want to see the best and exciting players on the field. Need to find a way to make sure teams are not afraid to bring up their young guns and avoid having young stars toiling in AA/AAA instead of flashing their game at the MLB level.


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#39

Posted: July 12, 2019, 8:09 AM Post
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The 92 brewers scored 4.56 runs per game while hitting 82 homers (which was 13th in the league... Not dead last) They wer 5th in the league in runs.

This year's club is scoring 4.74 runs a game with 155 homers in 91 games... So a pace of 276. And are 8th in the league in runs.

That's an extreme example but its pretty similar around the league. Scoring has its ebbs and flows but its generally 4 ish to 5 ish rpg. You'll have short eras like the 60s where scoring dips or the 90s where it jumps but whether its homers or bunts and steals the rpg is generally the same.


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#40

Posted: July 12, 2019, 8:43 AM Post
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So much complaining and expecting more. Minor league baseball is not a necessity to life. If you got a family to support, tough cookies...you made that decision and if it makes MiLB life hard then quit. Many people in everyday life (heck everyone) has to make tough decisions from time to time and might not do something they want to.

Who honestly is complaining about MiLB salaries down there? The next Mike Trout? No, it is life long career MiLB players. Leave if it isn't good enough, just like anyone in a normal job would. The supply of people to be MiLB filler greatly exceeds demand so there won't be big salary increases.

At least they get paid something for that opportunity. Many interns still work for free as slaves...most normal people go to college for four years, can't completely focus while there (part time job), and go $30,000+ in debt. Opportunities have costs, MiLB is an opportunity...not a job.


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