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MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?

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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#41

Posted: July 12, 2019, 8:44 AM Post
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Location: New Berlin, WI
I've been pretty set on the salary cap/floor system of NFL, and virtually guarantee players a minimum of x% of the revenue along with significantly expanded revenue sharing. At the end of the day, that's the most fair thing for baseball...assuming both sides can agree on what x% is.

As for tanking teams...a significant chunk of that problem is players wanting to play on competitive teams. Look no further than Grandal and Moose taking less to play for the Brewers. Both were reportedly offered multi-year deals but both wanted a chance to win and took 1 year deals with the Brewers. This isn't an isolated incident either, players don't always take the most money.


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#42

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:06 AM Post
Posts: 1988
Jopal78! said:
Roderick said:
treego14 said:
https://www.usatoday.com/videos/sports/mlb/whatimhearing/2019/07/11/mlb-players-furious-willing-strike-over-economic-system/1708461001/

I wonder why that is ... maybe because there is no salary cap or revenue sharing like the NFL has. But, I don't think the players union wants either one of those things ... wah! wah! wah!


Huh? Obviously the players would love revenue sharing by the teams. I'm sure that would mean more money for them in the long run. It just isn't going to happen, and there isn't much the players could force to happen. How are they going to get the Dodgers to give the Brewers part of their local TV contract? They would be picking a fight with the hand that feeds them.


In 1994 the owners proposed sharing all broadcast revenues equally among the teams, granting free agency after four years of service time, as well as a salary cap and salary floor, and the players walked out on strike over it.

If your for the players in that they need to be better compensated; you for driving a knife into the back of teams like the Brewers. It’s hard enough for teams without a huge media market to win, when LA, NY, Houston and Chicago are spending twice what they are. To further widen the disparity between those teams by paying players more earlier in their careers, cutting their service time requirements before free agency, forcing teams to field mediocre clubs for no other reason than ‘tanking’ is frowned on by the MLBPA, means the Brewers will always be irrelevant turning over their roster every couple years as a talent incubator for the big clubs.

The George Steinbrenner owner who pours buckets of his own personal money into his team are all gone. Owners like Attanasio, Mark Walter, Bruce Sherman buy these teams because they’re the ultimate investment. Attanasio, for example, paid 223 million for the Brewers 15 years ago. Major League teams are now selling for close to one billion dollars. Meaning if he sold today he’d likely walk away with a 300-400% return on his money in just 15 years. Dumping his own money into the team only takes away from the return on his investment. Sure, a little here and there happens but it’s temporary and infrequent. That’s the way it is with all the wealth management executives buying up the teams, owning teams is an investment now not a rich person’s toy, and the players are just slow to realize it


Fantastic take.
Especially your description of the newer owners(last 15-20 yrs). Attanasio’s The poster child for that new type of owner. Promises made: bank $ in low payroll years to use when competitive. Instead of doing that he buys the Carolina franchise, new scoreboard, concessions, Spring Training rehab, etc., which increase the value of his franchise, which thanks to these investments has increased the team’s value to 1.2 billion, % wise one of the highest increase in ALL of baseball. So I’d say our wealth management owner is doing his JOB.

He also grew up a Dodger fan.


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Online  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#43

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:09 AM Post
Posts: 1988
JimH5 said:
None of us have any idea how much the Brewers or any other team can afford in payroll. Your own recognition that the team value has skyrocketed during Attanasio's ownership suggests that they could have afforded more in payroll during that time.


Thank you for your voice of reason.


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#44

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:10 AM Post
Posts: 10833
KeithStone53151 said:
Look no further than Grandal and Moose taking less to play for the Brewers. Both were reportedly offered multi-year deals but both wanted a chance to win and took 1 year deals with the Brewers.


That seems like a poor example because I would bet neither was very happy with their deal and think it is a sign of how broken the system. Both would argue they deserve a nice multi year deal and based on the past I would completely agree. I also don't think either passed on a good multi year deal to come sign with us for a one year deal...they can say that all they want, but I doubt it. I think Moustakas specifically made a fatal mistake of passing up one thinking he could get more only to be wrong. As far as Grandal I think we offered so much for one year it was worth the gamble.

But once again if teams don't want to sign these guys to big contracts like they did in the past, fine...but then there needs to be a shift of money to when players are younger. Having stupid cheap control for 6 years and then refuse to pay guys at 29/30+ is horrid considering most hit free agency at about 30 years old or slightly higher for college guys. There is a serious problem and a very legitimate grip by players if guys at 30+ are flat out not going to get long term deals. It will either get fixed so players get out sooner or more money in that six years of control. If not they will strike as they should. FA is becoming a nightmare for guys that are really good, but not yearly all star players.


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#45

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:22 AM Post
Posts: 4577
Location: New Berlin, WI
MrTPlush said:
KeithStone53151 said:
Look no further than Grandal and Moose taking less to play for the Brewers. Both were reportedly offered multi-year deals but both wanted a chance to win and took 1 year deals with the Brewers.


That seems like a poor example because I would bet neither was very happy with their deal and think it is a sign of how broken the system. Both would argue they deserve a nice multi year deal and based on the past I would completely agree. I also don't think either passed on a good multi year deal to come sign with us for a one year deal...they can say that all they want, but I doubt it. I think Moustakas specifically made a fatal mistake of passing up one thinking he could get more only to be wrong. As far as Grandal I think we offered so much for one year it was worth the gamble.


I never really considered if saying they had multi-year offers was posturing or not. I think there have definitely been many other cases of players choosing less money over a desired location. This is much more of a thing in NBA/NFL but still happens in MLB as well. It's generally weird seeing players complain about bad teams when they are a significant part of the problem. That said, competitive balance is a bigger part of the reason.


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Online  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#46

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:23 AM Post
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rickh150 said:
More Revenue sharing and salary cap.... that will take care of many of the player association's issues.
If the big markets object to this, as sure as is expected, then perhaps wiggle room ala the NBA and exceptions could be brought in. Perhaps exceptions to signing your own drafted players to FA deals could be worked in. Maybe a soft cap could be used, but then again, a luxury tax is sort of that right now.


Revenue sharing and a salary cap might work but it appears the players balked at that before.


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Online  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#47

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:27 AM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:

Fantastic take.
Especially your description of the newer owners(last 15-20 yrs). Attanasio’s The poster child for that new type of owner. Promises made: bank $ in low payroll years to use when competitive. Instead On top of doing that he buys the Carolina franchise, new scoreboard, concessions, Spring Training rehab, etc., which increase the value of his franchise, which thanks to these investments has increased the team’s value to 1.2 billion, % wise one of the highest increase in ALL of baseball. So I’d say our wealth management owner is doing his JOB.

He also grew up a Dodger fan.


Fixed it for ya. And you leave out the part of all those things listed in your rant about MA is that they help the Brewers stay ahead or on par with many of the top franchises around the league. Without doing those things the Brewers would be the Tampa Rays or Oakland A’s of the MLB.

I also like the jab about him growing up a Dodgers fan as to question whether he really even cares about the Brewers. Solid but wouldn’t expect anything less I suppose.


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#48

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:30 AM Post
Posts: 4577
Location: New Berlin, WI
Pugger said:
rickh150 said:
More Revenue sharing and salary cap.... that will take care of many of the player association's issues.
If the big markets object to this, as sure as is expected, then perhaps wiggle room ala the NBA and exceptions could be brought in. Perhaps exceptions to signing your own drafted players to FA deals could be worked in. Maybe a soft cap could be used, but then again, a luxury tax is sort of that right now.


Revenue sharing and a salary cap might work but it appears the players balked at that before.


I find it so stupid that a salary cap/salary floor would be balked at by the players. I remember when Jeffress agent came in posting about collusion this offseason, he balked at anyone mentioning a cap/floor. A floor prevents teams like the Marlins/Pirates/A's, etc from having tiny payrolls and not trying to compete and guarantees them x% of the revenue. It honestly blows my mind that they wouldn't want this...but whatever, hopefully they can find something that works for all sides.


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#49

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:36 AM Post
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Brew4U said:
Brew crew 92 said:

Fantastic take.
Especially your description of the newer owners(last 15-20 yrs). Attanasio’s The poster child for that new type of owner. Promises made: bank $ in low payroll years to use when competitive. Instead On top of doing that he buys the Carolina franchise, new scoreboard, concessions, Spring Training rehab, etc., which increase the value of his franchise, which thanks to these investments has increased the team’s value to 1.2 billion, % wise one of the highest increase in ALL of baseball. So I’d say our wealth management owner is doing his JOB.

He also grew up a Dodger fan.


Fixed it for ya. And you leave out the part of all those things listed in your rant about MA is that they help the Brewers stay ahead or on par with many of the top franchises around the league. Without doing those things the Brewers would be the Tampa Rays or Oakland A’s of the MLB.

I also like the jab about him growing up a Dodgers fan as to question whether he really even cares about the Brewers. Solid but wouldn’t expect anything less I suppose.


It certainly appears that someone is taking notes while preparing for an messy "irreconcilable differences" type divorce later this season, doesn't it?


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#50

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:37 AM Post
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I don't have a problem with Attanasio investing back into the franchise. He didn't just pocket the money.

I also don't have a problem with players exercising their rights to do better for themselves. They should take the best deal they can get.

If teams aren't going to spend on players in their 30s, then players should try to get more in their 20s.


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#51

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:38 AM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:
JimH5 said:
None of us have any idea how much the Brewers or any other team can afford in payroll. Your own recognition that the team value has skyrocketed during Attanasio's ownership suggests that they could have afforded more in payroll during that time.


Thank you for your voice of reason.


You're correct but you miss the point, I doubt any owner who has bought a team in the last 20 years is taking a draw of salary as the CEO. They're all beyond rich to begin with. Its a joke to think Attanasio (who's Crescent Capital Group manages over 25 billion dollars in assets) is somehow lining his pockets with tens of millions of dollars that could be spent in payroll.

The Brewers have the worst market in the major leagues. Two legacy MLB teams 100 miles to the south. The Twins 5 hours to the Northwest. Hemmed in by a lake on the East and North sides. With another legacy team the Tigers on the other side of Lake Michigan and a foreign country on the other side of Lake Superior. Their market is basically Wisconsin and the U.P. and perhaps north eastern Iowa. There just isn't a lot of people in their market, so just because revenue is up in the game generally, doesn't necessarily mean the Brewers wallet is extra fat.


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#52

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:40 AM Post
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That 94 strike was as much about what was going on at the time as it was about 30 years of mistrust between the players and owners. Fay Vincent was fired because he figured out the owners were colluding against free agents.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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#53

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:42 AM Post
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Make every player a free agent at the end of every season.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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#54

Posted: July 12, 2019, 9:54 AM Post
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Jopal78! said:
Brew crew 92 said:
JimH5 said:
None of us have any idea how much the Brewers or any other team can afford in payroll. Your own recognition that the team value has skyrocketed during Attanasio's ownership suggests that they could have afforded more in payroll during that time.


Thank you for your voice of reason.


You're correct but you miss the point, I doubt any owner who has bought a team in the last 20 years is taking a draw of salary as the CEO. They're all beyond rich to begin with. Its a joke to think Attanasio (who's Crescent Capital Group manages over 25 billion dollars in assets) is somehow lining his pockets with tens of millions of dollars that could be spent in payroll.

The Brewers have the worst market in the major leagues. Two legacy MLB teams 100 miles to the south. The Twins 5 hours to the Northwest. Hemmed in by a lake on the East and North sides. With another legacy team the Tigers on the other side of Lake Michigan and a foreign country on the other side of Lake Superior. Their market is basically Wisconsin and the U.P. and perhaps north eastern Iowa. There just isn't a lot of people in their market, so just because revenue is up in the game generally, doesn't necessarily mean the Brewers wallet is extra fat.


Jeter is drawing a $5 million salary (plus a bonus for profit incentives) as CEO of the Marlins.

And the Brewers franchise value is up nearly $1 Billion since Attanasio bought it, despite market size. Franchise values are up all over the place and player salaries are down. Players don't like that, so they want changes.


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#55

Posted: July 12, 2019, 10:51 AM Post
Posts: 271
Brew4U said:
I agree Briggs. Pitching has become some dominant it actually is hurting the game. Seeing a starter who throws 95+ throw 5 innings and then a full pen of guys throwing 95+ seems pretty common these days. Not sure the game was ever meant to be played that way. Not sure what the solution is though, move back the mound a couple feet?


For the most part hitters have adjusted to the increased speed. Granted there are guys with speed and a good breaking ball that dominate, but those guys aren't prevalent. Pitching dominates because the modern day player wants to hit the long ball on every swing. Players used to dread striking out. Now they swing for the fences no matter what the count and situation. The batting average is overlooked for the bomb. Putting the ball in play, moving a runner over, taking a walk to put a RISP is no longer admired. Launch angles, exit velocity, dinger distance, and whiffs have replaced basehits, batting average, and critical RBIs.


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Online  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#56

Posted: July 12, 2019, 11:10 AM Post
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April 10, 2017 Wiscnews article by Tom Oats

Mark Attanasio:

When asked if the team would bank $ saved during the low payroll years to spend when competitive:

“ when we are ready to compete again or compete very seriously again, any dollars that we save now can be used then”.

Why do we put up with empty words?
I’ve been crushed by many on this site for my opposite opinion regarding the brewers low payroll, and my lack of information provided to back up my opinion. Then when I provide said info in multiple threads I still get knee jerk mocking of my viewpoint, I believe people would be better served by educating themselves about the actual reality’s of this teams massive revenue streams, and this owners spoken words to us fans AND media.

All I’ve heard from everyone on this site is how great an owner we have.

Why is he a “great owner”?
Is it because we’re comparing him to Wendy Selig-Prieb?
I think so. Low bar to be sure.

He bought this club from one of the most inept owners in baseball history, imo.

Among Attanasio ‘s attributes is he’s a fantastic salesman. Great speaker, relatable to us fans and media. A good salesman persuade’s others to agree with his viewpoint.

For 50 years, we as brewer fans, have had to put up with massive bias from the large city big market media, ignored, mocked even, for chronic losing, one WS appearance, but still, we fans of the brewers, overperform our market size to such an extreme, it’s really quite amazing, but in MY OPINION, we’re being TAKEN FOR GRANTED.

All I want as a rabid life long fan of this team is to have an owner that puts his $ where his mouth is.

Remember his words: “when we are ready to compete again or compete very seriously again, any dollars that we save now can be used then”.


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#57

Posted: July 12, 2019, 11:15 AM Post
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When Attanasio made that quote their payroll was under $80 million. It is now over $120 million.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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#58

Posted: July 12, 2019, 11:16 AM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:
April 10, 2017 Wiscnews article by Tom Oats

Mark Attanasio:

When asked if the team would bank $ saved during the low payroll years to spend when competitive:

“ when we are ready to compete again or compete very seriously again, any dollars that we save now can be used then”.

Why do we put up with empty words?
I’ve been crushed by many on this site for my opposite opinion regarding the brewers low payroll, and my lack of information provided to back up my opinion. Then when I provide said info in multiple threads I still get knee jerk mocking of my viewpoint, I believe people would be better served by educating themselves about the actual reality’s of this teams massive revenue streams, and this owners spoken words to us fans AND media.

All I’ve heard from everyone on this site is how great an owner we have.

Why is he a “great owner”?
Is it because we’re comparing him to Wendy Selig-Prieb?
I think so. Low bar to be sure.

He bought this club from one of the most inept owners in baseball history, imo.

Among Attanasio ‘s attributes is he’s a fantastic salesman. Great speaker, relatable to us fans and media. A good salesman persuade’s others to agree with his viewpoint.

For 50 years, we as brewer fans, have had to put up with massive bias from the large city big market media, ignored, mocked even, for chronic losing, one WS appearance, but still, we fans of the brewers, overperform our market size to such an extreme, it’s really quite amazing, but in MY OPINION, we’re being TAKEN FOR GRANTED.

All I want as a rabid life long fan of this team is to have an owner that puts his $ where his mouth is.

Remember his words: “when we are ready to compete again or compete very seriously again, any dollars that we save now can be used then”.


Brewers have went from a $60ish million payroll to $125ish million payroll since he has said that in 2017...

I think you are the one that needs educating. But hey, that’s just an opinion.


Last edited by Brew4U on July 12, 2019, 11:18 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#59

Posted: July 12, 2019, 11:24 AM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:
I’ve been crushed by many on this site for my opposite opinion regarding the brewers low payroll, and my lack of information provided to back up my opinion. Then when I provide said info in multiple threads I still get knee jerk mocking of my viewpoint, I believe people would be better served by educating themselves about the actual reality’s of this teams massive revenue streams, and this owners spoken words to us fans AND media.


Your martyrdom act is growing REALLY tiresome. Particularly since you simply ignore all facts that run counter to your argument (which seems to be based solely off estimates in the Forbes article). Please do not inject this into every thread related to money and salaries. There's one thread for that sort of thing. Failure to do so with result in a ban.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: MLB Players are furious over economic system! Can you believe this?
#60

Posted: July 12, 2019, 11:28 AM Post
Posts: 553
Location: Washburn, WI
You also fail to realize that they only were rebuilding for 2 seasons (15 and 16) where their payroll was still roughly $100 million from aging vets and expensive players. The payroll was only really slashed for one season (2017) and the Brewers ended up having a good season that year, signaling their “rebuild” was essentially already over. So his one year of having a low payroll isn’t an extended period where he pocketed tens of millions of dollars year after year. It was one single season of a very low payroll. The payroll is at an all-time high already and up almost FORTY million from the start of the 2018 season.

But why listen to facts when you can spit your opinion in every single thread over and over again as fact, trolling the entire board, and derail every thread.


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