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Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?

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Offline  Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#1

Posted: August 04, 2019, 11:45 AM Post
Posts: 2070
The deadline came and went, leaving fans underwhelmed. We'll see how the added depth in the pen helps down the stretch. Underwhelmed though, yes, and disturbing for a number of reasons...

1. No more starting pitching picked up.. we would have been thrilled with a couple Roarks or guys hanging on as 5th starters... completely nuts this couldn't happen. Not costly (compared to other prospect packages for #5 type starters) in late July.
2. Not a fan of giving up young Dubon and middle infield depth when Arcia, Saladino, Perez, etc. are struggling.. relief pitching strengthened a little by hurting another area.
3. Huge overlook by media....Faria and Ray are out of options next year! Hader, Jeffress, Knebel, Wahle, Claudio, Farai, Ray... who is going to be optioned back and forth next year? Troublesome. This doesn't help next year's group's depth much (as is) because of lack of some guy's optioning and the risk of losing them!
4. A bad pattern is going on here. We gave Gennett away (.300 vs righties), traded Khris Davis for a lottery ticket, God bless him, catcher. We now have traded Santana and Aguilar, not at their peak but quite honestly the opposite... close to their worse. Our depth at 1B gets worse long term (Shaw at 3B next year, Thames one more year, Braun one more year). We are also worse against lefties, not being able to put out as of big of right-handed bat threats.

Overall, we might be slightly better in the bullpen this year. Yet, we didn't get better for the long term with no Aguilar and Dubon. We have two of these four pitchers for next year, but neither has options left next year! Quite possibly the worst Deadline in the history of the franchise considering we signed two guys in Moose and Grandal to big one year contracts, signaling to the fan base that we are playoff bound. Now, we are unable to even pick up bad teams' #4 or #5 starters to fill in the gap for the rest of the season.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#2

Posted: August 04, 2019, 12:12 PM Post
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rickh150 said:
The deadline came and went, leaving fans underwhelmed. We'll see how the added depth in the pen helps down the stretch. Underwhelmed though, yes, and disturbing for a number of reasons...

1. No more starting pitching picked up.. we would have been thrilled with a couple Roarks or guys hanging on as 5th starters... completely nuts this couldn't happen. Not costly (compared to other prospect packages for #5 type starters) in late July.
2. Not a fan of giving up young Dubon and middle infield depth when Arcia, Saladino, Perez, etc. are struggling.. relief pitching strengthened a little by hurting another area.
3. Huge overlook by media....Faria and Ray are out of options next year! Hader, Jeffress, Knebel, Wahle, Claudio, Farai, Ray... who is going to be optioned back and forth next year? Troublesome. This doesn't help next year's group's depth much (as is) because of lack of some guy's optioning and the risk of losing them!
4. A bad pattern is going on here. We gave Gennett away (.300 vs righties), traded Khris Davis for a lottery ticket, God bless him, catcher. We now have traded Santana and Aguilar, not at their peak but quite honestly the opposite... close to their worse. Our depth at 1B gets worse long term (Shaw at 3B next year, Thames one more year, Braun one more year). We are also worse against lefties, not being able to put out as of big of right-handed bat threats.

Overall, we might be slightly better in the bullpen this year. Yet, we didn't get better for the long term with no Aguilar and Dubon. We have two of these four pitchers for next year, but neither has options left next year! Quite possibly the worst Deadline in the history of the franchise considering we signed two guys in Moose and Grandal to big one year contracts, signaling to the fan base that we are playoff bound. Now, we are unable to even pick up bad teams' #4 or #5 starters to fill in the gap for the rest of the season.


I disagree with this completely and let's be clear, this is your opinion, not fact as you present it.

Let's review. First, we move on from a 29 year old, one position guy with no options who failed to hit his weight this year who nearly everyone on this board was in favor of trading this off season because they felt like last year was a mirage. His 2019 may be closer to what he really is at this point, he'll be 30 next year and potentially declining even further. In return we get back a versatile, solid but not spectacular arm from an organization known for producing pitching.

Then we move a light hitting SS, maybe second baseman (where we're covered for the foreseeable future), for a potentially elite level bullpen arm and a rental arm. On the surface, this seems like a low risk worth making and the type of upside move most here clamor for every off season.

Failing to see how we're worse long term but I guess it depends how you value Dubon. Personally, I've never been a fan as it seems that we have had half a dozen guys that profile similarly come through the system the past 10-20 years that haven't panned out. Aguilar is a big meh for me.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#3

Posted: August 04, 2019, 12:48 PM Post
Posts: 2070
TigerUppercut said:
rickh150 said:
The deadline came and went, leaving fans underwhelmed. We'll see how the added depth in the pen helps down the stretch. Underwhelmed though, yes, and disturbing for a number of reasons...

1. No more starting pitching picked up.. we would have been thrilled with a couple Roarks or guys hanging on as 5th starters... completely nuts this couldn't happen. Not costly (compared to other prospect packages for #5 type starters) in late July.
2. Not a fan of giving up young Dubon and middle infield depth when Arcia, Saladino, Perez, etc. are struggling.. relief pitching strengthened a little by hurting another area.
3. Huge overlook by media....Faria and Ray are out of options next year! Hader, Jeffress, Knebel, Wahle, Claudio, Farai, Ray... who is going to be optioned back and forth next year? Troublesome. This doesn't help next year's group's depth much (as is) because of lack of some guy's optioning and the risk of losing them!
4. A bad pattern is going on here. We gave Gennett away (.300 vs righties), traded Khris Davis for a lottery ticket, God bless him, catcher. We now have traded Santana and Aguilar, not at their peak but quite honestly the opposite... close to their worse. Our depth at 1B gets worse long term (Shaw at 3B next year, Thames one more year, Braun one more year). We are also worse against lefties, not being able to put out as of big of right-handed bat threats.

Overall, we might be slightly better in the bullpen this year. Yet, we didn't get better for the long term with no Aguilar and Dubon. We have two of these four pitchers for next year, but neither has options left next year! Quite possibly the worst Deadline in the history of the franchise considering we signed two guys in Moose and Grandal to big one year contracts, signaling to the fan base that we are playoff bound. Now, we are unable to even pick up bad teams' #4 or #5 starters to fill in the gap for the rest of the season.


I disagree with this completely and let's be clear, this is your opinion, not fact as you present it.

Let's review. First, we move on from a 29 year old, one position guy with no options who failed to hit his weight this year who nearly everyone on this board was in favor of trading this off season because they felt like last year was a mirage. His 2019 may be closer to what he really is at this point, he'll be 30 next year and potentially declining even further. In return we get back a versatile, solid but not spectacular arm from an organization known for producing pitching.

Then we move a light hitting SS, maybe second baseman (where we're covered for the foreseeable future), for a potentially elite level bullpen arm and a rental arm. On the surface, this seems like a low risk worth making and the type of upside move most here clamor for every off season.

Failing to see how we're worse long term but I guess it depends how you value Dubon. Personally, I've never been a fan as it seems that we have had half a dozen guys that profile similarly come through the system the past 10-20 years that haven't panned out. Aguilar is a big meh for me.



The whole "fact" thing is nuts.... how is what you wrote any different than what I wrote?

Aguilar has performed well just last year (All Star) and just last month! He is controllable for the next few years too. Dubon is a top prospect. You may be right that he will not do well, but we won't know. We are banking on Pomeranz this year and an arm with no options in a full pen next year.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#4

Posted: August 04, 2019, 12:54 PM Post
Posts: 2070
We could have possibly gotten just as much better without the trades by simply bringing up Dubon for struggling Arcia and signing Matt Harvey.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#5

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:14 PM Post
Posts: 19593
TigerUppercut said:
rickh150 said:
The deadline came and went, leaving fans underwhelmed. We'll see how the added depth in the pen helps down the stretch. Underwhelmed though, yes, and disturbing for a number of reasons...

1. No more starting pitching picked up.. we would have been thrilled with a couple Roarks or guys hanging on as 5th starters... completely nuts this couldn't happen. Not costly (compared to other prospect packages for #5 type starters) in late July.
2. Not a fan of giving up young Dubon and middle infield depth when Arcia, Saladino, Perez, etc. are struggling.. relief pitching strengthened a little by hurting another area.
3. Huge overlook by media....Faria and Ray are out of options next year! Hader, Jeffress, Knebel, Wahle, Claudio, Farai, Ray... who is going to be optioned back and forth next year? Troublesome. This doesn't help next year's group's depth much (as is) because of lack of some guy's optioning and the risk of losing them!
4. A bad pattern is going on here. We gave Gennett away (.300 vs righties), traded Khris Davis for a lottery ticket, God bless him, catcher. We now have traded Santana and Aguilar, not at their peak but quite honestly the opposite... close to their worse. Our depth at 1B gets worse long term (Shaw at 3B next year, Thames one more year, Braun one more year). We are also worse against lefties, not being able to put out as of big of right-handed bat threats.

Overall, we might be slightly better in the bullpen this year. Yet, we didn't get better for the long term with no Aguilar and Dubon. We have two of these four pitchers for next year, but neither has options left next year! Quite possibly the worst Deadline in the history of the franchise considering we signed two guys in Moose and Grandal to big one year contracts, signaling to the fan base that we are playoff bound. Now, we are unable to even pick up bad teams' #4 or #5 starters to fill in the gap for the rest of the season.


I disagree with this completely and let's be clear, this is your opinion, not fact as you present it.

Let's review. First, we move on from a 29 year old, one position guy with no options who failed to hit his weight this year who nearly everyone on this board was in favor of trading this off season because they felt like last year was a mirage. His 2019 may be closer to what he really is at this point, he'll be 30 next year and potentially declining even further. In return we get back a versatile, solid but not spectacular arm from an organization known for producing pitching.

Then we move a light hitting SS, maybe second baseman (where we're covered for the foreseeable future), for a potentially elite level bullpen arm and a rental arm. On the surface, this seems like a low risk worth making and the type of upside move most here clamor for every off season.

Failing to see how we're worse long term but I guess it depends how you value Dubon. Personally, I've never been a fan as it seems that we have had half a dozen guys that profile similarly come through the system the past 10-20 years that haven't panned out. Aguilar is a big meh for me.


Sounds like you're just using superlatives to describe the guys we got to paint the players we acquired in a better light and negative adjectives to describe the ones we gave up. You could easily do the same in reverse.

Pomeranz has no value at all. None.

The odds of Black ever being an 'elite level bullpen arm' are extremely minimal. There are a ton of Ray Blacks out there that never amount to anything.

Value-wise, the Dubon trade was a terrible deal, especially when we now have no SS depth on the 40 and a very marginal starting SS.

Aguilar for Faria is whatever.

I have no problem with anyone thinking we're no better now either on the MLB team or farm than we were before the deadline, maybe even worse. I've said so myself.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#6

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:16 PM Post
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The Brewers correctly identified that this wasn't the year to trade what little they had left of assets to chase a playoff spot when the team has 4-5 holes. They were close enough not to want to sell, though some of us suspected they should have. They instead chose to try to fill those holes to a point, while knowing that they didn't have the ammo to go all-in this year. I'm fine with what they did. If anything, I wish they had sold.


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Online  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#7

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:16 PM Post
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
Should have sold.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#8

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:19 PM Post
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Aguilar plays only one position and not particularly well. He's the exact type of one dimensional player that has been getting DFA'd, traded for nothing, and signing minor league deals well into spring training all over the league the last few years. He's not much of a loss. Dubon is incredibly over hyped for whatever reason. Good glove, mediocre bat players like him live on the waiver wire. I really don't see how we gave up much of anything is these trades. I don't think we really got much of anything either.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#9

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:22 PM Post
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rickh150 said:
We could have possibly gotten just as much better without the trades by simply bringing up Dubon for struggling Arcia and signing Matt Harvey.


Harvey the gas can? His numbers this year are comparable to Corbin Burnes and he's been well below average the last four seasons. As bad as our pitching has been I fail to see how he would be an improvement.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#10

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:26 PM Post
Posts: 2070
jerichoholicninja said:
rickh150 said:
We could have possibly gotten just as much better without the trades by simply bringing up Dubon for struggling Arcia and signing Matt Harvey.


Harvey the gas can? His numbers this year are comparable to Corbin Burnes and he's been well below average the last four seasons. As bad as our pitching has been I fail to see how he would be an improvement.


EXTREMELY low bar, that's how.....


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#11

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:30 PM Post

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Posts: 2865
rickh150 said:
3. Huge overlook by media....Faria and Ray are out of options next year! Hader, Jeffress, Knebel, Wahl, Claudio, Faria, Ray... who is going to be optioned back and forth next year? Troublesome. This doesn't help next year's group's depth much (as is) because of lack of some guy's optioning and the risk of losing them!

assuming none are optioned for more than 20 days in 2019, josh hader and bobby wahl will each enter 2020 spring training with two minor league options and alex claudio with one.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#12

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:31 PM Post
Posts: 19593
PeaveyFury said:
The Brewers correctly identified that this wasn't the year to trade what little they had left of assets to chase a playoff spot when the team has 4-5 holes. They were close enough not to want to sell, though some of us suspected they should have. They instead chose to try to fill those holes to a point, while knowing that they didn't have the ammo to go all-in this year. I'm fine with what they did. If anything, I wish they had sold.


How did they "fill those holes to a point"?

I wasn't against trading Aguilar, but he was coming around with a .921 July OPS, and we thus obviously downgraded against LHP at the 1B position.

The only acquired player on the roster are Pomeranz, who arguably isn't better than our existing internal options and doesn't seem to be trusted with anything other than mop up duty, and Lyles, who had a nice first start for us but overall doesn't look any more attractive than when we passed on his option over the winter.

How is any of that filling our holes to a point?


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#13

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:36 PM Post
Posts: 2070
jerichoholicninja said:
Aguilar plays only one position and not particularly well. He's the exact type of one dimensional player that has been getting DFA'd, traded for nothing, and signing minor league deals well into spring training all over the league the last few years. He's not much of a loss. Dubon is incredibly over hyped for whatever reason. Good glove, mediocre bat players like him live on the waiver wire. I really don't see how we gave up much of anything is these trades. I don't think we really got much of anything either.


Dubon has been hitting very well this year, with power (.806 OPS). Not sure how he can be labeled meh when he puts up fairly nice numbers throughout the minors at a fairly young age, especially when meh Arcia is above him. Again, for improvement, the bar here is fairly low.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#14

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:43 PM Post
Posts: 765
rickh150 said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Aguilar plays only one position and not particularly well. He's the exact type of one dimensional player that has been getting DFA'd, traded for nothing, and signing minor league deals well into spring training all over the league the last few years. He's not much of a loss. Dubon is incredibly over hyped for whatever reason. Good glove, mediocre bat players like him live on the waiver wire. I really don't see how we gave up much of anything is these trades. I don't think we really got much of anything either.


Dubon has been hitting very well this year, with power (.806 OPS). Not sure how he can be labeled meh when he puts up fairly nice numbers throughout the minors at a fairly young age, especially when meh Arcia is above him. Again, for improvement, the bar here is fairly low.


I like Dubon, but an .800 OPS in the PCL doesn’t make me think he’ll ever slug much in the big leagues.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#15

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:46 PM Post
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rickh150 said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Aguilar plays only one position and not particularly well. He's the exact type of one dimensional player that has been getting DFA'd, traded for nothing, and signing minor league deals well into spring training all over the league the last few years. He's not much of a loss. Dubon is incredibly over hyped for whatever reason. Good glove, mediocre bat players like him live on the waiver wire. I really don't see how we gave up much of anything is these trades. I don't think we really got much of anything either.


Dubon has been hitting very well this year, with power (.806 OPS). Not sure how he can be labeled meh when he puts up fairly nice numbers throughout the minors at a fairly young age, especially when meh Arcia is above him. Again, for improvement, the bar here is fairly low.


I don't even have to look up numbers on the PCL to tell you that a .806 OPS is probably somehow below league average.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#16

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:46 PM Post
Posts: 2070
If Doug Melvin was making these moves, it would be universal uproar. DS is getting the benefit of doubt, from many, for now.

We would have been better off adding Harvey from his mansion, JA Dickey from retirement, keeping Aguilar, and simply moving up Dubon (along with Grisham). Giving up fairly adequate players for other team's junk.... kinda like actually paying money to the cashier to eat out of Roundy's garbage bins.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#17

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:48 PM Post
Posts: 2070
TigerUppercut said:
rickh150 said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Aguilar plays only one position and not particularly well. He's the exact type of one dimensional player that has been getting DFA'd, traded for nothing, and signing minor league deals well into spring training all over the league the last few years. He's not much of a loss. Dubon is incredibly over hyped for whatever reason. Good glove, mediocre bat players like him live on the waiver wire. I really don't see how we gave up much of anything is these trades. I don't think we really got much of anything either.


Dubon has been hitting very well this year, with power (.806 OPS). Not sure how he can be labeled meh when he puts up fairly nice numbers throughout the minors at a fairly young age, especially when meh Arcia is above him. Again, for improvement, the bar here is fairly low.


I don't even have to look up numbers on the PCL to tell you that a .806 OPS is probably somehow below league average.


A .300 hitter with 20 plus HRs while playing at SS?


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#18

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:52 PM Post
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adambr2 said:
How is any of that filling our holes to a point?


PeaveyFury said:
They instead chose to try to fill those holes to a point


Bold added for emphasis. They didn't choose to trade much, and didn't get much back. Because they knew we were the 2018 Pirates. Unlike the 2018 Pirates though, our FO recognized the problems that would limit the team going forward and didn't make a bunch of stupid moves chasing better teams than us. Instead, they traded excess players with baggage for two upside arms for the future (which makes a lot of sense for this team going FORWARD), and two stopgap arms to fill two of the 4-5 holes on the roster.

Fans can hate it if they want, but the team didn't go all-in because they knew when to fold them. This wasn't an all-in year.


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#19

Posted: August 04, 2019, 1:54 PM Post
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rickh150 said:

A .300 hitter with 20 plus HRs while playing at SS?


Rick, AAA numbers are practically video game numbers this year. Saladino hit 14 HR and slugged almost .570 there as a middle IF....


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Offline  Re: Trade Deadline Rant- How are we better?
#20

Posted: August 04, 2019, 2:06 PM Post
Posts: 2070
PeaveyFury said:
adambr2 said:
How is any of that filling our holes to a point?


PeaveyFury said:
They instead chose to try to fill those holes to a point


Bold added for emphasis. They didn't choose to trade much, and didn't get much back. Because they knew we were the 2018 Pirates. Unlike the 2018 Pirates though, our FO recognized the problems that would limit the team going forward and didn't make a bunch of stupid moves chasing better teams than us. Instead, they traded excess players with baggage for two upside arms for the future (which makes a lot of sense for this team going FORWARD), and two stopgap arms to fill two of the 4-5 holes on the roster.

Fans can hate it if they want, but the team didn't go all-in because they knew when to fold them. This wasn't an all-in year.


Still not sure why expecting any MLB starting pitcher in any rotation is asking too much... not an all in move, but it would surely help us this year.


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