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Baseball America's best tools survey

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Offline  Baseball America's best tools survey
#1

Posted: August 12, 2019, 9:09 PM Post
Posts: 6750
CC well respected by Managers, scouts and executives

Hader still feared

Yelich best hitter in NL

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories ... st-talent/


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#2

Posted: August 12, 2019, 9:12 PM Post
Posts: 11159
Best NL Defensive Catcher:

3) Yasmani Grandal

*forum implodes*


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#3

Posted: August 12, 2019, 10:37 PM Post
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MrTPlush said:
Best NL Defensive Catcher:

3) Yasmani Grandal

*forum implodes*


I understand how Gold Gloves are influenced by offense, but this is a BA survey of scouts, managers, and FO personnel.

The numbers say he is a great framer... and... adequate at everything else. Obviously the Dodgers didn't think he was a great defensive player when he was repeeatedly benched in the playoffs, and I don't think too many Brewer fans would say they'd rather have him behind the plate than Pina. Oh well.


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#4

Posted: August 12, 2019, 11:08 PM Post
Posts: 7944
I'm irked, since he's dropped more clean pitches (not in dirt, or that made him reach far) than I ever remember for a catcher. He's had numerous strikes he dropped resulting in balls called. I'd take Manny Pina EVERY day over him defensively.


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Online  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#5

Posted: August 13, 2019, 5:09 AM Post
Posts: 2333
DHonks said:
I'm irked, since he's dropped more clean pitches (not in dirt, or that made him reach far) than I ever remember for a catcher. He's had numerous strikes he dropped resulting in balls called. I'd take Manny Pina EVERY day over him defensively.


Totally agree with this take.
His pitch framing and decent arm doesn’t make up for his dropped balls and passed balls, Pina is a superior C, although imo, he’s had an off year, at least compared to his previous years.


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#6

Posted: August 13, 2019, 7:31 AM Post
Posts: 11159
Yasmani Grandal is frustrating to watch...not actually bad, just frustrating. It is kind of like Gomez/Villar being the worst baserunners people have ever seen in their lives. No...I think they were just frustrating to watch. Or Chase Anderson pitching, not actually bad, just frustrating that a tater is almost assured every start.


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#7

Posted: August 13, 2019, 7:38 AM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:
DHonks said:
I'm irked, since he's dropped more clean pitches (not in dirt, or that made him reach far) than I ever remember for a catcher. He's had numerous strikes he dropped resulting in balls called. I'd take Manny Pina EVERY day over him defensively.


Totally agree with this take.
His pitch framing and decent arm doesn’t make up for his dropped balls and passed balls, Pina is a superior C, although imo, he’s had an off year, at least compared to his previous years.


Elite pitch framing compensates for all other measurable aspects of catcher defense simply because there are thousands more opportunities throughout the course of a season to frame a pitch than there are to add/lose value via blocking or throwing. Per BPro...

Grandal +14.7 framing +1.0 blocking +0.2 throwing
Manny +5.3 framing +0.2 blocking -0.0 throwing

Now of course these are all counting stats & Yaz has three times as many innings behind the plate as Pina, so he should be higher. If you scale Manny's stats for Grandal's playing time they come out pretty even defensively, but Yaz is still 37% better with the bat, so it kind of doesn't really matter.


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#8

Posted: August 13, 2019, 8:06 AM Post
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Obviously we as fans know more than scouts, managers and front office people. I wouldnt rate Grandal that high but I think people on this board are way over the top on how bad his defense is. I have read people who have said when factoring defense he really isnt an improvement on Pina. That is crazy to me. I have also read people say his contract isnt worth how much better than Pina is and I guess that I can see. My biggest issue with Grandal isnt defense (like I said I think it is over-blown here) it is his lack of power over the past couple months. If he is just a guy who walks and gets singles his value isnt great.


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#9

Posted: August 13, 2019, 8:17 AM Post
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
If Grandal didn't have the yips for a couple of games in the NLCS against us last season you wouldn't hear a peep about him. Let me know when Pina is offered $18 per year to be a starting catcher in this league...


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#10

Posted: August 15, 2019, 9:04 AM Post
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jjfanec said:
Obviously we as fans know more than scouts, managers and front office people. I wouldnt rate Grandal that high but I think people on this board are way over the top on how bad his defense is. I have read people who have said when factoring defense he really isnt an improvement on Pina. That is crazy to me. I have also read people say his contract isnt worth how much better than Pina is and I guess that I can see. My biggest issue with Grandal isnt defense (like I said I think it is over-blown here) it is his lack of power over the past couple months. If he is just a guy who walks and gets singles his value isnt great.


When you say "people" and "this board" I think you just mean PinaMadness


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#11

Posted: August 15, 2019, 9:10 AM Post
Posts: 4851
Location: New Berlin, WI
Brew4U said:
If Grandal didn't have the yips for a couple of games in the NLCS against us last season you wouldn't hear a peep about him. Let me know when Pina is offered $18 per year to be a starting catcher in this league...


Right, his playoffs issues were just him having the yips for a few games. Maybe he let the moment get to him, or maybe he was dealing with an injury. But it was a weird, temporary situation that is unlikely to happen again. I would say he's a below average thrower, adequate blocker, and plus framer. With all that, hard for me to say he's the 3rd best defensive catcher. I still find that weird, that shoudl all net out to him being average defensively and rank in the 5-8 range at best.


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#12

Posted: August 15, 2019, 9:52 AM Post
Posts: 1997
jjfanec said:
.... I have read people who have said when factoring defense he really isnt an improvement on Pina. .....


Defense and calling a game - if you put any trust in catchers ERA stat, you would agree with this.

Grandal 4.95 ERA
Pina 3.68 ERA

That difference more than makes up for the extra offense Grandal gives. Now whether you give any credence, I don't know....


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#13

Posted: August 15, 2019, 9:58 AM Post
Posts: 4393
Location: Madison, WI
I wanna say someone in the last month or so here went through that catchers ERA stuff with the Dodgers the last few years and there was nothing there. So most likely a small sample issue. That said, I do think Pina is a great defensive catcher. Imagine what Kratz's numbers would be...


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Offline  Re: Baseball America's best tools survey
#14

Posted: August 15, 2019, 11:00 AM Post
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This is a pretty good deep dive into how much (or how little) stock should be put into Catcher's ERA...

https://tht.fangraphs.com/classic-tht-a ... ve-an-era/

Key takeaway is...

Looking at catchers who had at least 2,000 matched plate appearances in both odd and even years, I have 70 catchers, and find a correlation of 0.21. This group has an average of 4,343 plate appearance in each year category, which implies that you would have a correlation of 0.50 (where half of the observed difference is skill and half is luck) when you have 16,300 matched plate appearances, about three years of fulltime catching.

By comparison, Pina & Grandal have only 1,160 matched plate appearances in a single year, about 1/4 quarter of the sample needed to even get to the 0.21 correlation.

If you look at Grandal with the Dodgers, where the samples were larger than we're working with this season, the results were...

2015: Yaz 3.35 | Ellis 3.37
2016: Yaz 3.72 | Ellis 3.28
2017: Yaz 3.22 | Barnes 3.74
2018: Yaz 3.37 | Barnes 3.35

Is Manny Pina a better game caller than Yasmani Grandal? I think that is a very real possibility.

Is the 1.27 difference in their Catcher's ERA completely attributable to any edge Pina has as a game caller? I think that is a much less real possibility.


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