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2020 Brewers Position Players

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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#21

Posted: August 14, 2019, 8:44 AM Post
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BruisedCrew said:
IMHO, anyone who advocates trading Yelich for prospects cannot and should not be taken seriously. When you trade for high level prospects you pray that you might hit the jackpot and get someone who turns into what Yelich is now. When you have one, you don’t flip him, you build around him.


It's a ridiculous suggestion that would only be brought up by the same 3 guys over and over. However, if we're half-way through 2021 and sitting 39-44, I think it's something you have to do at that point. Your options are another Ryan Braun situation or capitalizing on what is probably the last bit of prime talent to get something back in return. I hate thinking about it, but if the team is not built to compete immediately I can't see them keeping him.

Also, Yelich has been generational for the last two years. I wouldn't expect any prospect to be as good as he has been.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#22

Posted: August 14, 2019, 8:53 AM Post
Posts: 11100
brooks_quichenick said:
MrTPlush said:
benji said:
How about going after Rendon instead of Moose?


Id rather resign Moustakas, Grandal, a starter, and buy a Hershey bar over Rendon. Probably a similar cost.


I’d take Rendon on his own easily over Moose + Grandal + Hershey’s bar.

He’s an elite hitter and great defender. His cost makes it unlikely, but imagining him hitting in the #3 hole behind Yelich (or #2 in a Grisham/Rendon/Yelich/Hiura 1-4) has me drooling. He’s on pace to account for more WAR than Moose and Grandal combined this year. MVP-type talent.


Does a bottom of the order that is:

Thames
Shaw
Pina
Arcia
Pitcher

also have you drooling? Because that is what it would be if spent money to get Rendon.


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Offline  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#23

Posted: August 14, 2019, 8:54 AM Post
Posts: 351
OnTheBlack said:
clancyphile said:
With all the talk about the starting pitchers, it's also worth taking a look at the position player group.

Two big names who have been big bats over the season:
2B/3B Mike Moustakas
C/1B Yasmani Grandal

Should they both be brought back?

It would be very hard to replace either's production over this season. Moustakas is showing 2017 was no fluke. Grandal has been excellent in Miller Park.

The likely replacements for Moustakas at third are Travis Shaw (slumped badly this year) and Lucas Erceg (who hasn't put it together).

Grandal? Pina/Nottingham/Freitas is a huge step down.

How do you keep those two together, and still integrate Grisham and Hiura to the 2020 team?



I don't think you need to intergrate Hiura into the 2020 team. He's already locked in as their 2nd basemen. Grisham's position is a bit more up in the air. I'd like to see if he could play CF at least as well as Gamel as that would allow him to play 50 or so games for Braun, 10-15 for Yelich and the same for Cain. Though at that point you'd be better off just moving Braun to 1st.

I'm not really on board with giving Mouse a 2-3 year extension. I think we're seeing him regress back closer to his career norms. He's not at .328 OBP which is still about 20 points above his career average and has been slumping pretty significantly since the ASB and even a bit before it since he was at a season high of .281/.360/.588 .948 OPS.

I guess in both scenario's, it matters what they'd plan on doing with the ~28 million in payroll that'd be gone. If that went to...lets say Gerrit Cole, I'd be fine with Pina behind the plate, a significant downgrade from Grandal offensively(though a nice upgrade offensively) and I guess just hope that Shaw bounces back.

We need to get more out of our starting pitching and if we could throw out Cole and Woodruff, hope Burnes can figure it out but start with Houser and make Burnes earn his way back in and then even Davies and Anderson, I think we could be a better all around team. Especially since as of now our pen should look outstanding on paper. Knebel, Wahl, Hader, Houser(if not in the rotation), Peralta, D. Williams and then probably 8-10 more really talented arms that should be ready to start next year or be ready at some point into next year, Rasmussen, Sanchez, Daniel Brown could be a nice loogy potentially. We don't know how Zach Brown or someone like Webb develops.

In short, I'd prefer in this one extremely rare situation the Brewers spend the money to try and go out and get that proven ace, especially while you have this window that's open with Yelich signed for 3 more years at a relatively cheap number. Would a lineup with Cain/Yelich/Hiura/Braun/Shaw/Grisham/Pina/Arcia be good enough offensively? That's a pretty big question mark and you'd really be counting on some unknowns in how big of a run producer Grisham would be, how Shaw could bounce back, how Cain could bounce back, if Arcia and Pina could hit well enough to be more than just glove 1st players? That'd be the risk in that particular plan. But at least in this scenario, you'd have some young talent, and you'd have guys like Gamel and Thames coming off the bench and at that point, it's a lot easier to trade for a rental bat than it is to trade for an impact starting pitcher.



If they don't go after Cole...which we all know is unlikely, I hope they don't give a guy like Ryu a 3/45 type deal or go after one of the other older or more injury prone "aces" like Strusburg, Arietta, Quintana, etc..etc...

More likely they'll try and bring Lyles back, maybe give Roark a deal for ~2/20 or even bring back another former Brewers we traded away in Odorizzi, though he'd be a pretty expensive signing.

Offensively, this is a really bad year for position players and unless you're going to try and go and get a guy like Dedi Gregorius, I don't see a whole lot out there that makes a big difference. Rendon and Donaldson are FA's, but I'd rather spend that money and hope Shaw can rebound.

So I think we try and run it back with Mouse, a couple bargain FA's pitchers and hope that we just get more out of our young players already in the system.


I don't think they would even consider Quintana an "ace" type pitcher, and not worth throwing big money at him. Odorizzi since June 9: 56.1 IPs (11 starts) - 63 hits - 33 ERs - 23 BBs..... Right now he's no better than many of the options the Brewers already have and much more expensive. I think you are right about Moose. I don't see Grandal back, but Stearns could re-sign Moose, not hurt the budget much, and not have to worry about 3B or Shaw regaining his stroke. I see Stearns making a run at a guy like Wood or maybe trading for a Lance Lynn. Both would be well withing budget considerations. The pen should improve greatly w/o any influx of outside talent. Stearns has to worry about upgrading the offense too. I think Pina and maybe Freitas could replace Gradal adequately although w/o the power. Cain has been well below avg. this year and Arcia has also been disappointing with the bat. Those are two big holes in the lineup. Is Grisham the answer for Braun or Cain? Does Stearns look to upgrade 1B or keep Thames ($7.5M) and Braun at 1B?


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#24

Posted: August 14, 2019, 8:55 AM Post
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If Shaw weren't hitting .155 that wouldn't be THAT bad to me. Pina would be pretty average with regular PT imo. Thames is fine, is what he is. Arcia stinks, though I still have misguided hope he'll come around.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#25

Posted: August 14, 2019, 9:31 AM Post
Posts: 626
MrTPlush said:
brooks_quichenick said:
MrTPlush said:

Id rather resign Moustakas, Grandal, a starter, and buy a Hershey bar over Rendon. Probably a similar cost.


I’d take Rendon on his own easily over Moose + Grandal + Hershey’s bar.

He’s an elite hitter and great defender. His cost makes it unlikely, but imagining him hitting in the #3 hole behind Yelich (or #2 in a Grisham/Rendon/Yelich/Hiura 1-4) has me drooling. He’s on pace to account for more WAR than Moose and Grandal combined this year. MVP-type talent.


Does a bottom of the order that is:

Thames
Shaw
Pina
Arcia
Pitcher

also have you drooling? Because that is what it would be if spent money to get Rendon.


It would look more like this:

Grisham - LF
Rendon - 3B
Yelich - RF
Hiura - 2B
Braun/Thames - 1B
Cain - CF
Piña/Freitas/Nottingham - C
Arcia (or upgrade?) - SS
Pitcher

Yes I would roll with that. Not sure where you’d have Shaw playing in your theoretical lineup if Rendon and Thames are in there too.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#26

Posted: August 14, 2019, 9:32 AM Post
Posts: 2283
OldSchoolSnapper said:
BruisedCrew said:
IMHO, anyone who advocates trading Yelich for prospects cannot and should not be taken seriously. When you trade for high level prospects you pray that you might hit the jackpot and get someone who turns into what Yelich is now. When you have one, you don’t flip him, you build around him.


It's a ridiculous suggestion that would only be brought up by the same 3 guys over and over. However, if we're half-way through 2021 and sitting 39-44, I think it's something you have to do at that point. Your options are another Ryan Braun situation or capitalizing on what is probably the last bit of prime talent to get something back in return. I hate thinking about it, but if the team is not built to compete immediately I can't see them keeping him.

Also, Yelich has been generational for the last two years. I wouldn't expect any prospect to be as good as he has been.


I don’t think it’s 3 guys bringing it up over and over, I believe I’m the only one now since the only other poster I’ve seen wanting to trade Yelich was mr Wahoo, and I believe he’s no longer with us.

I’m not of the belief that the brewers can build a team good enough around Yelich, the way it stands right now, with the limitations that a below league average payroll puts on Stearns. Too many holes, not enough prospect capital and money to fix. With that said, why hold onto him? Why pretend that there’s a good enough chance to win a title with him under the circumstances that exist?

Maybe if the payroll was upped to 150–160 for a year or two, it might be different? But I’m resigned to that not happening, based on past history.

Stearns hands are tied. What can he realistically do but continue to transact on the cheap?

So based upon those facts, imo, since we have 3 years control over the best HITTER in baseball and a GM I trust in winning trades:

Yelich > ~ 8 war player for his prime years > 20-24 war in prospect value return > 150-200 million in prospect value to go with Hader > 80-110 million just those 2 alone gets enough back to, if Stearns is to be trusted, 7+ top 100 prospects that can be used to build a LOW PAYROLL contender.

I’d like to see what Stearns can do with a stronger core(Hiura Grisham Woodruff Houser Peralta)than what he had in 2015-16 during his last quick turnaround.


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#27

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:11 AM Post
Posts: 837
Location: Wisconsin
OldSchoolSnapper said:
BruisedCrew said:
IMHO, anyone who advocates trading Yelich for prospects cannot and should not be taken seriously. When you trade for high level prospects you pray that you might hit the jackpot and get someone who turns into what Yelich is now. When you have one, you don’t flip him, you build around him.


It's a ridiculous suggestion that would only be brought up by the same 3 guys over and over. However, if we're half-way through 2021 and sitting 39-44, I think it's something you have to do at that point. Your options are another Ryan Braun situation or capitalizing on what is probably the last bit of prime talent to get something back in return. I hate thinking about it, but if the team is not built to compete immediately I can't see them keeping him.

Also, Yelich has been generational for the last two years. I wouldn't expect any prospect to be as good as he has been.


I was only talking about advocating a trade of Yelich this offseason. Circumstances obviously change, especially as it gets closer to the end of his current contract. But today, the business side of the operation has to consider what message it’s sending to fans if they trade away a player who has become by far its best and most popular player and biggest drawing card.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#28

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:20 AM Post
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You do not the trade the best hitter in baseball, making an average of about $13m for the next two years, when he is not a FA until 2023. Your premise of "too many holes to fix" doesn't make a lick of sense. You don't fill any holes by trading Yelich. You get some prospects who might possibly be good and 99% probably never as good as he is, and you create one new hole the size of Manhattan.

I get that it's been a frustrating year, but that is a new level of absurdity. His recent production makes him the best player to ever don a Brewers uniform. Your strategy is panicking about two years before you have to.

As far as what can Stearns do, he can wait for Braun to come off the books and still have Christian Yelich. That is the best play.


Last edited by OldSchoolSnapper on August 14, 2019, 10:23 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#29

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:22 AM Post
Posts: 4367
Location: Madison, WI
Sure you'd take Rendon if you could. But are we going to hand out a 5-6 20-25 mil contract to a 29/30 yr old? Granted, the market in the last few years probably keep his price tag down where you just don't immediately dismiss it (like we don't have to worry about 7-8 yr close to 200 mil anymore) but I still don't think they get it done. Someone will trump them.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#30

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:27 AM Post
Posts: 8369
You can't make decisions based on what fans will think. Besides, they get over it quickly. Fielder, Sabathia, Sexson, there's been all kinds of players fans really loved. Guess what? They move on to the next one. 90% of Brewer fans probably never heard of Yelich before he came here.

I hate having a middling team convincing themselves they can compete. Maybe lightning strikes this year yet, not ruling it out. If not, I have no problem dangling Yelich and anyone else to see what you can get. 99% sure he'll be gone after his current contract is up, so selling high is worth considering.

Finally, with a player like Yelich you're not trading for prospects necessarily. Maybe you get a really good young rotation arm with say 4 years of control as the centerpiece, a SS with MLB experience, plus a couple top prospects. If you can't get that, fine, keep Yelich. But for the right deal, you have to at least listen.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#31

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:30 AM Post
Posts: 2283
OldSchoolSnapper said:
You do not the trade the best hitter in baseball, making an average of about $13m for the next two years, when he is not a FA until 2023. Your premise of "too many holes to fix" doesn't make a lick of sense. You don't fill any holes by trading Yelich. You get some prospects who might possibly be good and 99% probably never as good as he is, and you create one new hole the size of Manhattan.

I get that it's been a frustrating year, but that is a new level of absurdity. His recent production makes him the best player to ever don a Brewers uniform. Your strategy is panicking about two years before you have to.

As far as what can Stearns do, he can wait for Braun to come off the books and still have Christian Yelich. That is the best play.


Didn’t address anything that I brought up, just talked in generalities. One player no matter how good, can’t win you a World Series.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#32

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:33 AM Post
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And Fielder was a guy they could have traded, but didn't, knowing they were going to lose him. Instead they went for it while having both Braun and Fielder. That is what you attempt with Yelich. I'm sorry, but I can't believe that is even being entertained here. If we're trading 27 y/o guys with OPS over 1.100 with three years of team control on modest contracts, what's the point of anything? We might as well move them to Vegas.

There is no possible way you get value by trading Yelich now. Nobody would pay what it takes. Two years from now, I listen. Today he is off limits.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#33

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:34 AM Post
Posts: 4367
Location: Madison, WI
Right, but have a player this freakishly good is a huge advantage. Especially on such a cheap contract. The window a player on that contract is providing us is something a small market dreams of. How they take advantage of it is of course yet to be seen. We can rip on management all we want but obviously it worked in year 1. Year 2 they're still competing but pitching mistakes were made. You have 3 more years in this window and the latter two you also lose Braun's contract to help with more flex. Basically just saying it's very tough to punt on that window, have to keep taking swings. But as Snapper just said once you get to the deadline 1.5 years away from FA you have to start listening if that team isn't winning.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#34

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:36 AM Post
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Brew crew 92 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
You do not the trade the best hitter in baseball, making an average of about $13m for the next two years, when he is not a FA until 2023. Your premise of "too many holes to fix" doesn't make a lick of sense. You don't fill any holes by trading Yelich. You get some prospects who might possibly be good and 99% probably never as good as he is, and you create one new hole the size of Manhattan.

I get that it's been a frustrating year, but that is a new level of absurdity. His recent production makes him the best player to ever don a Brewers uniform. Your strategy is panicking about two years before you have to.

As far as what can Stearns do, he can wait for Braun to come off the books and still have Christian Yelich. That is the best play.


Didn’t address anything that I brought up, just talked in generalities. One player no matter how good, can’t win you a World Series.


Yes I did. You just said that Stearns hands are tied and that he can't do anything to win with Yelich. Which is of course nonsense, but that's par for the course.


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#35

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:38 AM Post
Posts: 549
My guess is the OF group is mostly set
Braun, Cain, Yelich, Gamel, and Grisham

Infield is different. I only see Hiura as a guarantee. At this point I'd probably bring back Thames whether that's through the club option or re-signed at a slightly lower price. Shaw is the toughest decision. If you can bring back Moose I'd non tender or trade Shaw. Personally, I'd non-tender saladino and perez. I'd probably non tender Arcia too unless his Arb salary is around $1mm. I'd attempt to bring in a veteran SS like Iglesias or Galvis (if he his option is declined). Todd Frazier is an interesting complement to the roster as a part time right handed bat at 3rd and first.

Catcher could end up being Pina + a young guy as the back up. I'd love to bring Grandal back though. Off the top of my head I don't remember any other notable starting caliber catchers who will be free agents.

With 26 roster spots next season it will be interesting to see if the Brewers primarily operate with a 5 man bench.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#36

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:46 AM Post
Posts: 2283
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Brew crew 92 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
You do not the trade the best hitter in baseball, making an average of about $13m for the next two years, when he is not a FA until 2023. Your premise of "too many holes to fix" doesn't make a lick of sense. You don't fill any holes by trading Yelich. You get some prospects who might possibly be good and 99% probably never as good as he is, and you create one new hole the size of Manhattan.

I get that it's been a frustrating year, but that is a new level of absurdity. His recent production makes him the best player to ever don a Brewers uniform. Your strategy is panicking about two years before you have to.

As far as what can Stearns do, he can wait for Braun to come off the books and still have Christian Yelich. That is the best play.


Didn’t address anything that I brought up, just talked in generalities. One player no matter how good, can’t win you a World Series.


Yes I did. You just said that Stearns hands are tied and that he can't do anything to win with Yelich. Which is of course nonsense, but that's par for the course.


I’ve read thru these plans on pitching and position players, let’s just say it doesn’t look too promising for 2020, imo.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#37

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:50 AM Post
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To be honest, I agree, that right now, 2020 is looking a lot like this year. I anticipate we'll have a bit better luck, but this roster has problems. I am hoping for a year similar to this one, maybe with fewer gut punch losses, but one we are competing in the division most of the year. But I am more excited for 2021. I'm hoping by then, some young guys have grown, Arcia is either something or off the team, and we've made enough to changes to take one more leap with Yelich + Braun money. If THAT season goes belly up, yes, I start dangling Yelich in July.


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Offline  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#38

Posted: August 14, 2019, 10:52 AM Post
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We're set at:

LF (Grisham)
CF (Cain)
RF (Yelich)
2B (Hiura)
1B (Thames/Braun)

Sign Moustakas for 3B, Keep Shaw for depth at 3B, part of platoon at 1B (where Thames moves to OF to spell Grisham against tough Righties).

That leaves:

SS
C

I don't really want to go with Pina as the prime Catcher, but he isn't an Arcia... Grandal might not get the multi-year he was hoping for, but I bet he does sign somewhere else for more than 1 year. SS options were plentiful last offseason and are sparse on the FA market for this year. Personally, I can't wait for the last game for Arcia as a Brewer, but I don't think there's a quick fix for the bottom of the order black hole. I'd be fine with a defensive whiz at SS who is actually above replacement level who doesn't offer much offense or at least knows the difference between a ball and strike. Braun/Thames may not be as good as the current Brewers 1B, but a full year of Hiura and Braun-circa2019 production from Grisham in LF the offense will be a little better especially if they limit the Shaw suckitude (if it continues).

JosephC said:
Stearns probably had no interest in getting a C because the Brewers need a C. It makes much more sense to trade for 3B when it's not needed, and then move the other 3B to 2B, then trade for a 2B, but since the 3B is now at 2B, then the new 2B goes to SS


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Offline  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#39

Posted: August 15, 2019, 1:26 PM Post
Posts: 19
I desperately want the Brewers to move on from Arcia. His bat still hasn't come close to coming around, and his defense is nothing spectacular. However, there aren't many options out there to upgrade SS. Gregorius is all but certain to re-sign with the Yankees IMO and the other free agent shortstops aren't great. Although at this point I would take a potato at shortstop instead of Arcia. I really don't want him on the team next season.


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Online  Re: 2020 Brewers Position Players
#40

Posted: August 15, 2019, 1:31 PM Post
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
I’m excited for Arcia to do well elsewhere too.


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