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Live and die with Josh Hader:

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Offline  Live and die with Josh Hader:
#1

Posted: October 02, 2019, 6:57 AM Post
Posts: 40
Always easy to comment on a bad move after the fact but I thought pulling Woodruff after the Fourth was too early. The Brewers lived and died with Josh Hader this season. He probably gave up more late inning games than anyone else and when I saw that he was coming in I told my fiance that it was a bad move. Who else could've came in? Counsell went to the bench too early. The Brewers would've lost to the Dodgers with their gameplay. Pretty exciting September folks see what happens in 2020.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#2

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:02 AM Post
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Location: N. Fort Myers, FL
Evidently Lyles was warming up last night but not until things got too dicey so by the time he was ready the damage was already done. Perhaps next year with Knebel back we won't have to lean on Hader so much. I wonder if Josh was feeling the pressure. Yes, you need your closer to work under pressure but these players are human too. When Hader is on he is wonderful. But when he doesn't have his slider he is absolutely hittable. No reliever will survive with only a FB.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#3

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:07 AM Post
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Woodruff was gassing. He did what they needed. It was every move after that which was problematic.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#4

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:12 AM Post
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Woodruff threw a grand total of 4 innings since coming off the IL. Getting 4 out of him last night was a godsend, and probably more than could be expected.

Looking back, I think that the plan was to get 2 innings from Suter, but that blew up when Suter got in trouble in the 5th. You get two from Suter, then Pom gets the 7th and 8th, and you go to Hader in the 9th. I would have been much more comfortable with that, but it just didn't work out.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#5

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:12 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
Woodruff was gassing. He did what they needed. It was every move after that which was problematic.


The only move that wasn't great was not having a plan B in the 8th in case Hader didn't have it.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#6

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:15 AM Post
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Hader never seemed to fully embrace the Closer™ role, coupled with the fact that Craig had to always keep his workload in check. I think losing Knebel and the non-effectiveness of JJ early this season really put a wrench in our bullpen makeup. Hopefully next season Hader can go back to being the fireman he was in 2018 vs. having to be reserved for a potential 9th inning save. Also hopefully Hader can get the feel back for his slider or develop a third pitch that can throw hitters off his fastball.

I still believe Hader is a weapon out of our pen in 2020, just not in the way he was used in 2019. I don't think it's fair to lump him in with flashes in the pan like Turnbow and Axford.


Last edited by jjgott on October 02, 2019, 9:28 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#7

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:19 AM Post
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jjgott said:
Hader never seemed to fully embrace the Closer™ role, coupled with the fact that Craig had to always keep his workload in check. I think losing Knebel and the non-effectiveness of JJ early this season really put a wrench in our bullpen makeup. Hopefully next season Hader can go back to being the fireman he was in 2018 vs. having to be reserved for a potential 9th inning save. Also hopefully Hader can get the feel back for his slider or develop a third pitch that can throw hitters off his fastball.

I still belief Hader is a weapon out of our pen in 2020, just not in the way he was used in 2019. I don't think it's fair to lump him in with flashes in the pan like Turnbow and Axford.


Agreed. Looking back losing Knebel might have been a bigger loss than losing Yeli in September.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#8

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:21 AM Post
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jjgott said:
Hader never seemed to fully embrace the Closer™ role, coupled with the fact that Craig had to always keep his workload in check. I think losing Knebel and the non-effectiveness of JJ early this season really put a wrench in our bullpen makeup. Hopefully next season Hader can go back to being the fireman he was in 2018 vs. having to be reserved for a potential 9th inning save. Also hopefully Hader can get the feel back for his slider or develop a third pitch that can throw hitters off his fastball.

I still belief Hader is a weapon out of our pen in 2020, just not in the way he was used in 2019. I don't think it's fair to lump him in with flashes in the pan like Turnbow and Axford.


Agreed wholeheartedly. With this whole post, but especially the last sentence. I know we've kind of been conditioned as Brewer fans that all good relievers are flashes in the pan, but comparing Hader to waiver wire and Indy-ball retreads is almost laughable.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#9

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:22 AM Post
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Knebel was crushing but Josh Hader needs a reliable second pitch. I don't think the ball is going to get unjuiced. The best hitters are just waiting for one of his meat balls and sending them into space. His control isn't good enough to get by with one pitch. If he doesn't develop something, his HR problem is going to get worse.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#10

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:46 AM Post
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Josh Hader was just as much of a weapon out of the pen this year as last. There is literally little to no evidence that points to Hader being a problem this year. It is absolutely ridiculous people are trying to make him out to be a big concern. All the talk about him giving up homers, yet overall his stats were similar and he didn't really blow many more games.

2018: 83.33% of losses and/or blown saves included multiple runs
2019: 27.27% of losses and/or blown saves included multiple runs

2018: 21.32% of appearances had an earned run given up
2019: 26.23% of appearances had an earned run given up.

-25 multi inning appearances compared to 36 last year
-18 times he came in with men on base compared to 14 last year

There was not much difference in the amount of games he blew this year compared to last (about 2%). He was simply 'unlucky' compared to last year when it came to tie and/or one run games. If we had given Hader more 2+ run leads everyone would think he was man of the year or if had had simply given up those solo homers in a game where he had a multi run lead. By definition he was less effective this year by results, but it is pretty insane people are making him out to be some kind of concern. He could continue to give up homers at a 1.8/ per 9 rate and I have no worries we still have one of the best guys in the game at his position. A lot of it was simply giving him more game opportunities to fail in less overall innings of work.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#11

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:53 AM Post
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Hader most definitely deserves the brunt of the criticism for not only last night's result, but Saturday's as well. He blew it. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Unfortunately that's life as a late-inning reliever. Hell, one of the best late-inning guys of all time, Craig Kimbrel, almost single-handedly eliminated his team from the playoff race this year. It happens.

Its hard for me to fault CC for going with Hader last night. I wish it had been for the 9th only instead of two innings, but it is what it is. He's the best reliever on the team, and was put in the position to close out the victory. He couldn't do it. It sucks, but that doesn't change the fact that he's the best reliever on the team both currently and in the future.

It certainly would be nice to get him down the the Arizona pitching lab this offseason and have him perfect that slider. It would make him that much better.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#12

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:55 AM Post
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MrTPlush said:
Josh Hader was just as much of a weapon out of the pen this year as last. There is literally little to no evidence that points to Hader being a problem this year. It is absolutely ridiculous people are trying to make him out to be a big concern. All the talk about him giving up homers, yet overall his stats were similar and he didn't really blow many more games.

2018: 83.33% of losses and/or blown saves included multiple runs
2019: 27.27% of losses and/or blown saves included multiple runs

2018: 21.32% of appearances had an earned run given up
2019: 26.23% of appearances had an earned run given up.

-25 multi inning appearances compared to 36 last year
-18 times he came in with men on base compared to 14 last year

There was not much difference in the amount of games he blew this year compared to last (about 2%). He was simply 'unlucky' compared to last year when it came to tie and/or one run games. If we had given Hader more 2+ run leads everyone would think he was man of the year or if had had simply given up those solo homers in a game where he had a multi run lead. By definition he was less effective this year by results, but it is pretty insane people are making him out to be some kind of concern. He could continue to give up homers at a 1.8/ per 9 rate and I have no worries we still have one of the best guys in the game at his position. A lot of it was simply giving him more game opportunities to fail in less overall innings of work.


This is how it starts. With each one of them. Every time. I'll say this about Hader, at 25 it's still entirely possible he develops his repertoire, which he better, because being "on" - most of the time - with one pitch, is not enough to last a career.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#13

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:55 AM Post
Posts: 40
MrTPlush said:
Josh Hader was just as much of a weapon out of the pen this year as last. There is literally little to no evidence that points to Hader being a problem this year. It is absolutely ridiculous people are trying to make him out to be a big concern. All the talk about him giving up homers, yet overall his stats were similar and he didn't really blow many more games.

2018: 83.33% of losses and/or blown saves included multiple runs
2019: 27.27% of losses and/or blown saves included multiple runs

2018: 21.32% of appearances had an earned run given up
2019: 26.23% of appearances had an earned run given up.

-25 multi inning appearances compared to 36 last year
-18 times he came in with men on base compared to 14 last year

There was not much difference in the amount of games he blew this year compared to last (about 2%). He was simply 'unlucky' compared to last year when it came to tie and/or one run games. If we had given Hader more 2+ run leads everyone would think he was man of the year or if had had simply given up those solo homers in a game where he had a multi run lead. By definition he was less effective this year by results, but it is pretty insane people are making him out to be some kind of concern. He could continue to give up homers at a 1.8/ per 9 rate and I have no worries we still have one of the best guys in the game at his position. A lot of it was simply giving him more game opportunities to fail in less overall innings of work.


I would say unreliable not unlucky. He looked like he was on drugs last night. Counsell doesn't manage pitching well. He doesn't hook them early enough when they're is trouble. Hence no more games this year. Feel bad for all of you. I watch American League play more grew up with the A's but did back the AL Brewers still not all in on the league change.


Last edited by geargroy on October 02, 2019, 7:57 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#14

Posted: October 02, 2019, 7:57 AM Post
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Counsell manages pitching great, just didn't last night, which really makes it suck that much more.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#15

Posted: October 02, 2019, 8:15 AM Post
Posts: 11884
I think Counsell made the right call with Hader.

Strikeout
HBP
Strikeout


At this point you are not taking him out, if you are clearly you just hate Hader. Two strikeouts and only a guy on first.

Nearly off the hands broken bat single


This is where it gets dicey, but I think if you look at the situation I don't think you are logically taking out Hader. End of the day the Brewers had two options:

1) Have Jordan Lyles pitch to Anthony Rendon. One of the best hitters in the game that tees off lefties and righties.

2) Have Josh Hader pitch to Juan Soto.

I think I will take a broken arm Josh Hader against any lefty instead of pitching to Rendon with Lyles. I can see wanting to go to Lyles, but I don't think it was obvious and I don't think it is anywhere near his worst move this year. Sticking with Hader made a lot of sense. Unfortunately Hader decided to suck and we can't really afford that.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#16

Posted: October 02, 2019, 8:20 AM Post
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My memory of the 8th is fuzzy, but if we're going to talk about how unlucky Hader was, he was pretty damn lucky to have that opening sequence, because he was absolutely all over the place last night, even on the Ks, and the first guy (I think, again, fuzzy) swung at a ball 4 that wasn't even close.

I keep seeing people bring up the HBP, not here, but other places...but assuming that hitter is retired if that's called back is a pretty big leap by how that inning/his control were going.

I dunno. My stance on Hader before the game even started was to yank him if he let anyone on. Let someone else blow the game if you have to. The course of events with him out there was just way too predictable, especially with how god awful his location was - it should have made that decision easy.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#17

Posted: October 02, 2019, 8:28 AM Post
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I am always amazed that I see so many say that CC doesn't manage the pitching well. It is really rather comical.

Hader gave up some big homers this year. Like we've seen from year to year, that can vary. He'll still be an elite arm next season.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#18

Posted: October 02, 2019, 8:41 AM Post
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I know it's "small sample alert" but I never liked Hader with the two inning save starting the 8th.

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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#19

Posted: October 02, 2019, 9:08 AM Post
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For the bulk of this year, Hader was it for shutting the door with a late-inning lead.

In 2017 and 2018, he had Knebel and Jeffress to back him up.

He didn't have that backup in 2019. It was all on him.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#20

Posted: October 02, 2019, 9:36 AM Post
Posts: 694
Win or lose with your best pitcher on the mound. I have no issue with Hader coming in for a 2 inning save. I thought he'd get out of it. Command was bad, but he gave up a couple of schtoinkers too.

Probably wasn't going to go back out for the 9th if they had the lead/tie just due to all of the pitches.

Terribly disappointing end to the season. No way to sugar coat that, but I don't blame Counsell for riding with Hader. Sometimes your best players get beat.


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