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Live and die with Josh Hader:

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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#21

Posted: October 02, 2019, 9:39 AM Post
Posts: 84
OldSchoolSnapper said:
My memory of the 8th is fuzzy, but if we're going to talk about how unlucky Hader was, he was pretty damn lucky to have that opening sequence, because he was absolutely all over the place last night, even on the Ks, and the first guy (I think, again, fuzzy) swung at a ball 4 that wasn't even close.

I keep seeing people bring up the HBP, not here, but other places...but assuming that hitter is retired if that's called back is a pretty big leap by how that inning/his control were going.

I dunno. My stance on Hader before the game even started was to yank him if he let anyone on. Let someone else blow the game if you have to. The course of events with him out there was just way too predictable, especially with how god awful his location was - it should have made that decision easy.


Hader threw fastballs out of the zone all year and got batters to swing. It's not now 'lucky' that the same batters were getting beat with those pitches. Hader was absolutely unlucky in the HBP call and the broken bat single by Zimmerman. He stayed away from Rendon on the 3-2 pitch, which was fine. Counsell wasn't going to lift Hader for Claudio or anyone else at that point against a lefty, so calling that bad management is just Monday morning quarterbacking. Just a bad play by Grisham and unlucky spots from Hader.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#22

Posted: October 02, 2019, 9:45 AM Post
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You're kinda doing the same thing. Getting a guy to swing at Ball 4 that's way out isn't lucky, but him misfiring yet again and hitting a guy in the wrist is unlucky. IMO people are making way too much of that call, I genuinely think it was probably simultaneously, at least nothing on the video was conclusive enough to expect a reversal. And even IF you get it called back, there is no telling what happens with his next pitch.

He was terrible last night. Maybe lucky with a pitch and unlucky with another, but he was awful.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#23

Posted: October 02, 2019, 9:49 AM Post
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His command was off but he sawed the bat off of Zimmermann's hands and it fell in for a hit. Most of the time that becomes and easy out and the inning ends.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#24

Posted: October 02, 2019, 10:01 AM Post
Posts: 84
OldSchoolSnapper said:
You're kinda doing the same thing. Getting a guy to swing at Ball 4 that's way out isn't lucky, but him misfiring yet again and hitting a guy in the wrist is unlucky. IMO people are making way too much of that call, I genuinely think it was probably simultaneously, at least nothing on the video was conclusive enough to expect a reversal. And even IF you get it called back, there is no telling what happens with his next pitch.

He was terrible last night. Maybe lucky with a pitch and unlucky with another, but he was awful.


There was one hard hit ball off of him, a single. That isn't awful or terrible.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#25

Posted: October 02, 2019, 10:04 AM Post
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If you're honestly telling me that Hader looked good last night I don't know what to say. I don't know that he hit his spot once.

This is literally the Jeffress thing all over again, even if he doesn't end up going down that path. Last year the 80% consensus was that the hits were cheap and no one was hitting him "strong." He had absolutely no command of his pitches last night.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#26

Posted: October 02, 2019, 10:07 AM Post
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ctmyers said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
My memory of the 8th is fuzzy, but if we're going to talk about how unlucky Hader was, he was pretty damn lucky to have that opening sequence, because he was absolutely all over the place last night, even on the Ks, and the first guy (I think, again, fuzzy) swung at a ball 4 that wasn't even close.

I keep seeing people bring up the HBP, not here, but other places...but assuming that hitter is retired if that's called back is a pretty big leap by how that inning/his control were going.

I dunno. My stance on Hader before the game even started was to yank him if he let anyone on. Let someone else blow the game if you have to. The course of events with him out there was just way too predictable, especially with how god awful his location was - it should have made that decision easy.


Hader threw fastballs out of the zone all year and got batters to swing. It's not now 'lucky' that the same batters were getting beat with those pitches. Hader was absolutely unlucky in the HBP call and the broken bat single by Zimmerman. He stayed away from Rendon on the 3-2 pitch, which was fine. Counsell wasn't going to lift Hader for Claudio or anyone else at that point against a lefty, so calling that bad management is just Monday morning quarterbacking. Just a bad play by Grisham and unlucky spots from Hader.


More or less agree, aside from saying he was staying away from Rendon - that wasn't by design, that was because he wasn't able to command his pitches. He had some unlucky breaks, but he also put himself in a bad spot by not having command. Lots of people talk about him being most effective up in the zone, and he gives up dongs when he's throwing low strikes. He definitely wasn't low in the zone last night. Not making excuses for him, but there were a few 50/50 high pitches that were called balls that the ump was calling strikes on occasion earlier in the game that Hader put behind in counts and aided hitters to taking more pitches instead of swinging. The ump overall was inconsistent high in the zone - although some of the pitches he called strikes for Suter were ridiculously high. If Hader was missing by a couple inches consistently and was hitting his spots he probably gets a few of those strike calls and the Brewers win the game - the fact he was all over the place negates that possibility and the ump doesn't give him the benefit of the doubt on any marginal pitches.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#27

Posted: October 02, 2019, 10:10 AM Post
Posts: 13182
OldSchoolSnapper said:
You're kinda doing the same thing. Getting a guy to swing at Ball 4 that's way out isn't lucky, but him misfiring yet again and hitting a guy in the wrist is unlucky. IMO people are making way too much of that call, I genuinely think it was probably simultaneously, at least nothing on the video was conclusive enough to expect a reversal. And even IF you get it called back, there is no telling what happens with his next pitch.

He was terrible last night. Maybe lucky with a pitch and unlucky with another, but he was awful.


It was not way out. Maybe....an inch.

https://www.mlb.com/gameday/brewers-vs- ... ame=599336

Turner swung on a way out pitch to strikeout, but it was not a full count.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#28

Posted: October 02, 2019, 10:32 AM Post
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Live or die, Hader was the guy and I felt that Counsell should've hooked him after the Zimmerman bloop but he didn't have Lyles warming up at that time. Do or done, Counsell needs to have the bullpen active I would.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#29

Posted: October 02, 2019, 10:36 AM Post
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That is one thing that mystifies me about last night. It's one game, with a day off if you win, you carried 10 pitchers for it and you have pretty limited activity most of the night. I don't know. I'm just pissed off.

I'm sure there were many games this season where I thought whatever pitcher was going to blow it and he didn't, but I woke up feeling that Hader would blow the game if left in the 8/9th. I just did not want him there all day and to see it all play out in literally the exact nightmare scenario I envisioned, and to see Counsell sit on his hands as it did...just blah. And I'm a huge Counsell fan.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#30

Posted: October 02, 2019, 11:02 AM Post
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Hader really has to learn to throw a more consistent slider. I don't think comparing him to Turnbow or Axford is fair, but Andrew Miller went from elite to mediocre reliever fairly quickly the last couple years.

For starters, Hader needs to not be locked into a closing role in 2020, it is just not a good role fit for him.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#31

Posted: October 02, 2019, 11:08 AM Post
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This is just my opinion, but I think Hader was scared to give up the HR ball last night. This lead him to throwing more off speed pitches, which he didn't do for strikes. This led to mainly full counts, and too many pitches. If he comes out, throws gas, and strikes guys out, he's got a good chance to pitch both innings. By not mowing down the bottom of the lineup, we were in a terrible spot. His confidence was off, and we were basically stuck with him, and whatever outcome came. I have to think that if he gets out of that jam, we have to go to a different pitcher in the 9th. It was worst case scenario.

I think CC does a tremendous job managing his staff. The playoffs last year, and all year this year, he's done a great job of piecing things together. It's not like he's had a traditional staff. He's gotten way more than we had hoped for out of these guys. We needed one more pitcher last night. One more experienced late inning reliever. We came up an inning short on guys. Like I said, if Hader comes out, and throws strikes, and gets out of that first inning, I like his chances in the 9th. That didn't happen, but hard to say he should have been pulled. Had to let him try and get out of it I think.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#32

Posted: October 02, 2019, 11:14 AM Post
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When Hader came out shaky I started to really look at his body language and if he was nervous he's one cool customer because he looked totally fine, if not relaxed. It looked like he was smiling before it all got really bad.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#33

Posted: October 02, 2019, 11:17 AM Post
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After last night's loss, I was reluctant to come back here, fearing the wailing wouldn't end. I'm glad all the level heads are out today.

As mentioned, what hurts is no Knebel or good Jeffress as a backup. Josh is better in the "in emergency break glass" role in innings 6-8 to secure the tough outs. I'm hoping he can develop a good curve ball or changeup over the offseason.

I was rooting for Lyles to be out next, but it's hard to second guess that, as who knows what the results would have been. 5 innings from Pom would have worked. [smile]


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#34

Posted: October 02, 2019, 11:26 AM Post
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geargroy said:
He looked like he was on drugs last night.


What does that even mean?


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#35

Posted: October 02, 2019, 11:37 AM Post
Posts: 13182
Zad Fnark said:
I'm glad all the level heads are out today.


They are either off the bandwagon until the 2020 season draws closer or they are currently banned.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#36

Posted: October 02, 2019, 11:40 AM Post
Posts: 13182
PeaveyFury said:
geargroy said:
He looked like he was on drugs last night.


What does that even mean?


Obviously you didn't see him in his postgame interview



Image


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#37

Posted: October 02, 2019, 12:18 PM Post
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Location: New Berlin, WI
It's real easy to be a monday morning QB, but I'll add my thought to the mix on bullpen usage. I was hesitant to send Woodruff out for a 4th, I could have understand for 1 batter as it was a RH hitter and see what happens...but have a lefty ready. Woodruff looked sharp in the 4th so obviously let him finish. I would have pulled Suter for a RH reliever during his inning at some point. After Suter's inning, I would have gone to Lyles for 1-3 innings depending how he looked with the plan to let Pomeranz pitch 1 and Hader pitch 1. As played, considering Pomeranz looked so devastating, I think you have to let him keep pitching. He was a starter and pitched at least 1 stint of 3 innings for us. Could have left him in with Hader needing to only pitch 1. With how Hader has looked lately, I didn't think counting on him for multiple innings was wise. As played, I think Hader needed to be pulled with Rendon coming up. Go to a RH reliever like Jackson/Peralta/Guerra...I would lean towards Peralta. Then have Lyles come out in the 9th. I think his only truly BAD move was leaving Hader out too long. The others I referenced were moreso doing stuff a bit differently than I would have...but not bad by any stretch.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#38

Posted: October 02, 2019, 1:10 PM Post
Posts: 342
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Counsell manages pitching great, just didn't last night, which really makes it suck that much more.


Maybe for the regular season

Two post seasons in a row he showed his inability to manage a bullpen that killed us. Jeffress clearly didn't have it for us last year and he was too stubborn to look elsewhere. This year Hader was not the shutdown two inning guy he was last year. I'd love to see his 8th inning stats because I swear nearly everytime he came in the 8th, there was trouble. Knew it was coming last night.

Postseason managing is not the same as regular season managing. Counsell is a better regular season manager than a postseason manager.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#39

Posted: October 02, 2019, 1:21 PM Post
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with how Counsell managed the bullpen last night. There was no way you can expect more than 4 from Woodruff. Hader has come out shaky a few times in the past and almost always got it together and was fine after a few batters. If we were talking like Knebel I get it, when he starts bad he doesn't tend to get over it, Hader doesn't have that issue.

Trying to use Lyles with runners on is really putting him out of his comfort zone, the righties in the bullpen were a bad matchup for Soto and we had already used Pomeranz. There was not a better option than hoping your guy makes a few good pitches.

Jeffress' usage wasn't nearly as bad as people want to make it out last year in the playoffs either.


Last edited by Ennder on October 02, 2019, 1:28 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#40

Posted: October 02, 2019, 1:24 PM Post
Posts: 804
billymac said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Counsell manages pitching great, just didn't last night, which really makes it suck that much more.

This year Hader was not the shutdown two inning guy he was last year. I'd love to see his 8th inning stats because I swear nearly everytime he came in the 8th, there was trouble. Knew it was coming last night.


Hader's 8th inning stats compared to his 9th inning stats are very similar except an increase in BB/HR and therefore an increase in ERA. BA/OBP/SLG still very good.

In 48.1 IP in the 9th inning, Hader has a 1.86 ERA with 7 HR allowed and 90 K's to 10 BB. Batters are hitting .152/.203/.327 against him in the 9th.

In 21.2 IP in the 8th inning, Hader has a 4.15 ERA with 6 HR allowed and 41 K's to 7 BB. Batters are hitting .167/.253/.423 against him in the 8th.


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