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Live and die with Josh Hader:

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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#41

Posted: October 02, 2019, 2:09 PM Post
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Ennder said:
Jeffress' usage wasn't nearly as bad as people want to make it out last year in the playoffs either.



With ya until this. Everyone except Craig Counsell knew JJ was toast.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#42

Posted: October 02, 2019, 2:18 PM Post
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Location: Madison, WI
This is hindsight 20/20 talk. He essentially played last night just like he played all of September, which got us to this point. Hader was off and combined with a couple bad breaks and that was it. Sure, in hindsight maybe can find something. Such as perhaps using a Guerra in between Suter/Pom that way you can pinch hit rather than letting Pom hit. That could've pushed everyone back an inning. But, if Guerra gets beat up folks here are screaming how dumb it was not to just stick to Pom/Hader. Or, leave Pomeranz out for the 8th. But if he puts 2 on and then Hader comes in and doesn't get out people are screaming how you should've just had Hader out to start the inning. That's the risk of a heavy bullpen formula we use, some days a reliever is off, and the more guys you go to the odds of that guy pitching go up.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#43

Posted: October 02, 2019, 2:23 PM Post
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tmwiese55 said:
This is hindsight 20/20 talk. He essentially played last night just like he played all of September, which got us to this point. Hader was off and combined with a couple bad breaks and that was it. Sure, in hindsight maybe can find something. Such as perhaps using a Guerra in between Suter/Pom that way you can pinch hit rather than letting Pom hit. That could've pushed everyone back an inning. But, if Guerra gets beat up folks here are screaming how dumb it was not to just stick to Pom/Hader. Or, leave Pomeranz out for the 8th. But if he puts 2 on and then Hader comes in and doesn't get out people are screaming how you should've just had Hader out to start the inning. That's the risk of a heavy bullpen formula we use, some days a reliever is off, and the more guys you go to the odds of that guy pitching go up.


Ain't hindsight from me. And sure if it had worked I wouldn't have a reason to be talking about this, but I was pretty adamant about not wanting Hader anywhere near the 9th inning. The division blowage in Colorado was the last warning sign. I mean I think it was actually you that said you didn't hate my idea of bringing Hader out first. Maybe he'd suck then too, but, there is less pressure in the 5th, there is more time to get the runs back, and you have more options if he clearly doesn't have it going. Give the 8th/9th to Pom who had shown more control and better secondary stuff.

You're absolutely right about Guerra or anybody else going in there and blowing it, but literally the exact reason I didn't want Hader closing that game out came true.

But if someone else had blown the game late like that I would be feeling more like "Well what can you do, they all stink," rather than "Hader blew it and I saw it coming."


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#44

Posted: October 02, 2019, 2:31 PM Post
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Location: Madison, WI
How much of that is just our ingrained pessimism as Brewers fans though? I mean, you're acting like Hader has been bad lately or something. For this Sept run he had a 1.88 ERA and 10 Saves and one blown save in that Col game. He only gave runs two times out of about 15 appearances. That Col game, and a fluke oppo HR to that scrawny guy from STL over two weeks ago. That's it. In the majoriy of games he never even got a guy on base against him. You're basically advocating for demoting and not trusting him because he gave one HR in Colorado.

For you last sentence, I think everyone else is more comfortable going down swinging with our best guy rather than a Guerra/Peralta/Cloudio


Last edited by tmwiese55 on October 02, 2019, 2:35 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#45

Posted: October 02, 2019, 2:32 PM Post
Posts: 13182
OldSchoolSnapper said:
The division blowage in Colorado was the last warning sign.."


What were the warning signs before? The single homer he gave up between August 13th and September 28th? The 2 earned runs he gave up the month prior to that one pitch? The 12/13 scoreless outings prior to the Colorado game?

We were suppose to treat Josh Hader like AAA fodder that never saw a high leverage situation solely based on one pitch?


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#46

Posted: October 02, 2019, 2:41 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
tmwiese55 said:
This is hindsight 20/20 talk. He essentially played last night just like he played all of September, which got us to this point. Hader was off and combined with a couple bad breaks and that was it. Sure, in hindsight maybe can find something. Such as perhaps using a Guerra in between Suter/Pom that way you can pinch hit rather than letting Pom hit. That could've pushed everyone back an inning. But, if Guerra gets beat up folks here are screaming how dumb it was not to just stick to Pom/Hader. Or, leave Pomeranz out for the 8th. But if he puts 2 on and then Hader comes in and doesn't get out people are screaming how you should've just had Hader out to start the inning. That's the risk of a heavy bullpen formula we use, some days a reliever is off, and the more guys you go to the odds of that guy pitching go up.


Ain't hindsight from me. And sure if it had worked I wouldn't have a reason to be talking about this, but I was pretty adamant about not wanting Hader anywhere near the 9th inning. The division blowage in Colorado was the last warning sign. I mean I think it was actually you that said you didn't hate my idea of bringing Hader out first. Maybe he'd suck then too, but, there is less pressure in the 5th, there is more time to get the runs back, and you have more options if he clearly doesn't have it going. Give the 8th/9th to Pom who had shown more control and better secondary stuff.

You're absolutely right about Guerra or anybody else going in there and blowing it, but literally the exact reason I didn't want Hader closing that game out came true.

But if someone else had blown the game late like that I would be feeling more like "Well what can you do, they all stink," rather than "Hader blew it and I saw it coming."


So your take is CC should have brought Hader out in the 5th so he could likely blow the game earlier because he was toast in your eyes, then proceed to lay out other closer options as also being awful with the exception of Pom (who did give them 6 outs with the lead). I guess you wanted to hold onto Pom to use him for innings 7 and 8 assuming he'd be pitching from behind since the rest of the pen is a disaster, Hader included? Not sure anyone is able to follow at this point...

Hard to fault CC for going with what got the Brewers to the postseason from a bullpen standpoint - sucks that it didn't work out but taking any other approach to what he tried to do would've been even more reason to question it. Hader has been this team's closer, good and bad, for all of 2019 - to switch it up in a winner take all wild card game because he gave up a 2 out solo shot at Coors Field to tie a game in game 161 after being dominant in September (27K, 3 BB, 2HR, 0.7WHIP) is just beyond kneejerk. The only thought I had to change how the pen was managed last night was that they may have tried using other relief options to get through the 6th before going to Pomeranz - then you could pinch hit his spot in the 7th, use him for innings 7-8 with Hader coming in at the first sign of trouble or given the 9th.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#47

Posted: October 02, 2019, 2:48 PM Post
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I'm not a pitching mechanics guru, but something about Hader was off in the 8th. He threw his first few sliders 1-2 feet outside the zone and high, as well as a few of his fastballs in that territory. I assumed he was too amped up / over-throwing. He was regularly getting behind hitters. As Ken Rosenthal tweeted earlier today, it's only the 3rd time in his career he threw more balls than strikes. (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/statu ... 8054329345)

In Colorado, his high fastball just got tagged on Saturday night. Last night wasn't that.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#48

Posted: October 02, 2019, 2:55 PM Post
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Fear The Chorizo said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
tmwiese55 said:
This is hindsight 20/20 talk. He essentially played last night just like he played all of September, which got us to this point. Hader was off and combined with a couple bad breaks and that was it. Sure, in hindsight maybe can find something. Such as perhaps using a Guerra in between Suter/Pom that way you can pinch hit rather than letting Pom hit. That could've pushed everyone back an inning. But, if Guerra gets beat up folks here are screaming how dumb it was not to just stick to Pom/Hader. Or, leave Pomeranz out for the 8th. But if he puts 2 on and then Hader comes in and doesn't get out people are screaming how you should've just had Hader out to start the inning. That's the risk of a heavy bullpen formula we use, some days a reliever is off, and the more guys you go to the odds of that guy pitching go up.


Ain't hindsight from me. And sure if it had worked I wouldn't have a reason to be talking about this, but I was pretty adamant about not wanting Hader anywhere near the 9th inning. The division blowage in Colorado was the last warning sign. I mean I think it was actually you that said you didn't hate my idea of bringing Hader out first. Maybe he'd suck then too, but, there is less pressure in the 5th, there is more time to get the runs back, and you have more options if he clearly doesn't have it going. Give the 8th/9th to Pom who had shown more control and better secondary stuff.

You're absolutely right about Guerra or anybody else going in there and blowing it, but literally the exact reason I didn't want Hader closing that game out came true.

But if someone else had blown the game late like that I would be feeling more like "Well what can you do, they all stink," rather than "Hader blew it and I saw it coming."


So your take is CC should have brought Hader out in the 5th so he could likely blow the game earlier because he was toast in your eyes, then proceed to lay out other closer options as also being awful with the exception of Pom (who did give them 6 outs with the lead). I guess you wanted to hold onto Pom to use him for innings 7 and 8 assuming he'd be pitching from behind since the rest of the pen is a disaster, Hader included? Not sure anyone is able to follow at this point...

Hard to fault CC for going with what got the Brewers to the postseason from a bullpen standpoint - sucks that it didn't work out but taking any other approach to what he tried to do would've been even more reason to question it. Hader has been this team's closer, good and bad, for all of 2019 - to switch it up in a winner take all wild card game because he gave up a 2 out solo shot at Coors Field to tie a game in game 161 after being dominant in September (27K, 3 BB, 2HR, 0.7WHIP) is just beyond kneejerk. The only thought I had to change how the pen was managed last night was that they may have tried using other relief options to get through the 6th before going to Pomeranz - then you could pinch hit his spot in the 7th, use him for innings 7-8 with Hader coming in at the first sign of trouble or given the 9th.


No, but continue to dismiss me and talk down to me because I guess that's how people cope with Hader blowing the season around here. My take was to bring Hader in, as I said before the game, as the first guy out, and find him pine as soon as a runner was on because the game was too important for his bad version to show up.

You act like it's such an insane idea when they literally did that in the NLCS. It was a good plan, unfortunately they scored one run and JJ was terrible.

Again, please stop acting like the Colorado game was the first time Hader looked ugly as a closer this year. There are 14 other home runs the guy gave up in less than 80 innings. A guy with that propensity for home runs is really not who I want pitching against the meat of a very good lineup in a 1-2 run game.

At the very least take him out of the game when it's obvious it's not his night, which was very obvious last night. Instead we let it ride like it was May 15th.

Quit it with the "hard to follow crap" and the insinuations that I have to be crazy or stupid. I've been totally consistent in how I would've used Hader. The first guy out, HOPING he takes the 5th and 6th - then any combination of matchups until you can get the ball to Pomeranz. If he looks bad, you have to go longer relief, but there were ways to win that game last night even with bad Hader showing up.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#49

Posted: October 02, 2019, 3:02 PM Post
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I don't even know where you pulled that "rest of the pen is a disaster" thing from. I never said anything even close to that.

If you're referring to this "You're absolutely right about Guerra or anybody else going in there and blowing it, but literally the exact reason I didn't want Hader closing that game out came true." Then your comprehension needs work. I wasn't saying Guerra would blow it, I was conceding that if he or anyone else did people would be screaming that Player X should have been left in.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#50

Posted: October 02, 2019, 3:10 PM Post
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tmwiese55 said:
How much of that is just our ingrained pessimism as Brewers fans though?


Fair, a lot of it.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#51

Posted: October 02, 2019, 3:14 PM Post
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Location: Madison, WI
But Hader hasn't been like that at all since mid August when he started using his slider again. He's been scored on 2 times since mid August. By this type of thinking you'd also be holding Pomeranz's bad numbers before we got him against him as well. Hader has been our best guy in this end of season stretch. Again, you're advocating distrust and demotion due to one HR in the Col air. And your prefered choice and more trusted player is Pomeranz, you know, the guy who also gave up a HR in the same game in Colorado.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#52

Posted: October 02, 2019, 3:16 PM Post
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That's fine and why Counsell used him the way he did. It just isn't what I would have done and to say the worry about Hader is hindsight just isn't accurate because I literally said all of this before the game. Of course I never expected Hader to be used any differently last night. I just wish it would have happened.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#53

Posted: October 02, 2019, 3:40 PM Post
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Location: New Berlin, WI
OldSchoolSnapper said:
That's fine and why Counsell used him the way he did. It just isn't what I would have done and to say the worry about Hader is hindsight just isn't accurate because I literally said all of this before the game. Of course I never expected Hader to be used any differently last night. I just wish it would have happened.


I was one that generally agreed it wouldn't be a bad idea to use Hader early. The idea would be start with your very best and go from there. If after Woodruff's 4 innings, we get good Hader and he can pitch 2+ clean innings and is striking out everybody...heck you can probably save Lyles for game 1 of the NLDS. If you get bad Hader like we saw yesterday, you can have a quicker hook and adapt as there are plenty of options. I personally was so frustrated we didn't have a quicker hook for Hader. He had too many extremely bad pitches. He was basically a 1 pitch pitcher as the entire stadium knew he couldn't get his slider anywhere near the zone. In an August game, sure leave Hader in and if he blows it...he blows it. In a 1 and done...if the guy isn't sharp, next man up. This team's strength is in it's numbers, we have a lot of quality arms that can have really good days. For all we know, CC could have put in Freddy to face Rendon and we get good Freddy...who strikes out 4 in a row for the W. In the playoffs, you need to be much more Joe Maddon/Bruce Bochy than what CC has been. Identify if a guy isn't sharp and quick hooks. Can't be married to any one guy, and being efficient simply doesn't matter in said situation. We had 6 guys left in the pen and 4 outs to get


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#54

Posted: October 02, 2019, 3:42 PM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I don't even know where you pulled that "rest of the pen is a disaster" thing from. I never said anything even close to that.

If you're referring to this "You're absolutely right about Guerra or anybody else going in there and blowing it, but literally the exact reason I didn't want Hader closing that game out came true." Then your comprehension needs work. I wasn't saying Guerra would blow it, I was conceding that if he or anyone else did people would be screaming that Player X should have been left in.

Didn't you type this: But if someone else had blown the game late like that I would be feeling more like "Well what can you do, they all stink," rather than "Hader blew it and I saw it coming."


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#55

Posted: October 02, 2019, 4:27 PM Post
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I wanted somebody else to start the 8th. If you bring somebody else in (or leave Pomeranz in) and they scuffle for a bit, you still have Hader to bring in the game. If you start the 8th with Hader and he scuffles a bit...you pretty much have to leave him in and let him wriggle out of it or blow it--and even if he wriggles out of it, you have a difficult decision of leaving him out there in the 9th with a high pitch count. We had other options.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#56

Posted: October 02, 2019, 5:45 PM Post
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Here's the problem I have. No matter what you would have done, CC wasn't stupid, or blew it, or anything of the sort. He made a very logical choice, one that most would have done.

Some of you would have gone by "feel." Fine, but my experience hanging out in the IGTs tells me your feeling was wrong 96.9% of the time.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#57

Posted: October 02, 2019, 6:20 PM Post
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The game played out as planned. Unfortunately Hader didnt execute Saturday night or Tuesday night. That being said add on runs can take pressure off a bullpen. You cant expect Hader to be perfect everytime. 3 runs usually wont win games against good offenses.

Great season overall. Hader and Knebel (assuming be comes back healthy) is a deadly combo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#58

Posted: October 02, 2019, 6:43 PM Post
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Underachiever said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
I don't even know where you pulled that "rest of the pen is a disaster" thing from. I never said anything even close to that.

If you're referring to this "You're absolutely right about Guerra or anybody else going in there and blowing it, but literally the exact reason I didn't want Hader closing that game out came true." Then your comprehension needs work. I wasn't saying Guerra would blow it, I was conceding that if he or anyone else did people would be screaming that Player X should have been left in.

Didn't you type this: But if someone else had blown the game late like that I would be feeling more like "Well what can you do, they all stink," rather than "Hader blew it and I saw it coming."


It's called context and you're not getting it. The point there isn't that the entire bullpen sucks. It's that I didn't want Hader to close from the get-go and if they'd tried another strategy I would at least feel like they tried it and it just didn't work. Whereas I saw the Hader train wreck coming and find another outcome easier to live with.

Even if I concede that CC decided Hader would close the game before it started, which I think is stupid, he still should have pulled him way before that bases clearing hit. Game was still winnable even with the strategy I didn't like and bad Josh showing up.


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Online  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#59

Posted: October 02, 2019, 6:44 PM Post
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Hader had a stretch from July 1st through August thirteenth where he gave up 7 homers in just 14 games. That's half the homers he gave up for the season when he absolutely couldn't get his fastball up in the zone. For the rest of the year he was pretty much lights out. He was simply outstanding in September. Relievers and closers blow saves once in a while. If they didn't, they'd just say "ok, game over" when teams brought in their closers. There are no automatic closers in the league. We got spoiled last year by having a nice run of the bullpen being shut down for a while (and again this September).

It's going to be vital for Hader to develop that slider going forward, and I think most people know that relievers are generally pretty volatile year to year, but the guy still has a ton of talent and hopefully that can still be coached out of him going forward.


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Offline  Re: Live and die with Josh Hader:
#60

Posted: October 02, 2019, 6:58 PM Post
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What flame-throwing relief pitcher has sustained a career with basically one pitch? I'm genuinely asking for a list of guys. Because my fear with Hader is that the hitters are simply too good for that to work much longer. Really makes what Trevor Hoffman did with his injury just absolutely incredible.


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