LambeauLeap1250 WSSP


  
Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next  [ 133 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply

Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m

Author Message
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 02, 2019, 6:44 PM Post
User avatar

The Weatherman
Global Moderator
Posts: 6498
If there is a critique of the Brewers FO it is that they didn't lock these guys into multiple years last winter. Knowing what we know now they both could have been signed to 3-year deals. That's the downside to the lower risk 1-year contracts.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 02, 2019, 6:57 PM Post
Posts: 916
SRB said:
Love Moose as a player, but this is a disastrous move for Cincinnati.

First of all, this is overrating him as an offensive player. He's consistently solid and gives you HR/RBI, but his overall offensive profile is basically average and not worth $64 million. Keep in mind he almost had a career year last season (second best of his career) at age 30, and most of that was in the first half. Through the second half he was middling.

Second of all, this is a huge gamble on 359 defensive innings at 2B. The Reds have Votto and Suarez locked up for at least three years, so there is absolutely nowhere to move Moose if he struggles as an everyday 2B or his defense falls off a cliff.

Really strange decision making.


360 innings last season at second and 800 at 3rd. So he hasn't even played a full season at second base yet and he was dealing with injuries last year. I'm not a scout, but he sure looked very slow turning the double play. I too have a hard time seeing this as working out for Cincy. As others have said Votto and Suarez are locked in for the same time frame or longer. Senzel is naturally an IF, and doesn't appear to be a very good CF, so I don't know why they wouldn't just move him to second and sign/trade for a CF. That would make more sense to me than signing Moose to this contract.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 02, 2019, 7:06 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 18870
owbc said:
If there is a critique of the Brewers FO it is that they didn't lock these guys into multiple years last winter. Knowing what we know now they both could have been signed to 3-year deals. That's the downside to the lower risk 1-year contracts.


Grandal got a 4 year offer from the Mets last year and turned it down to bet on himself on a one year deal. The Brewers probably didn't want to commit a multi-year deal to Moustakas not knowing how he was going to handle 2nd base.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 02, 2019, 7:17 PM Post
Posts: 3962
The Brewers have cleared, what? $35 million or so from last year’s payroll? It seems pretty obvious that they are going to make, or at least attempt to make, some strong moves in signing free agents this offseason.

It is reasonable to think that a full year of Hiura and a healthy Cain can help make up some of the offense that walked out the door. I’m certain there’ll be more moves coming....they aren’t going to go to the playoffs 2 years in a row and then just cut payroll by nearly 25% and call it a day on 2020

As others have said: Relax! Even an Armchair GM like me can see they need to upgrade their pitching staff, so I’m quite sure that Stearns is well aware of the strengths & weaknesses of his roster.

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 02, 2019, 7:25 PM Post
Posts: 2250
Location: Madison, WI
I would have started with 4 years, 70 million on Grandal and may have gone higher and tried to out-bid the White Sox. But Moustakas is way too great of an OBP risk to even come close to matching this offer from Cincy.

I've always been somewhat skeptical of Moustakas but no question he was a great fit in Milwaukee and, after doing a full review of this off-season, would have liked to see him back. Congratulations to him for getting a 64 million deal.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 02, 2019, 7:27 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 14187
Location: Milwaukee, WI
This thread has been as hilarious as this deal. I’m so glad we have a GM with a brain. Moose is an average ML 3B. Getting attached to a guy that forgot to show up against the Dodgers two seasons ago is a bad idea. Next!

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 02, 2019, 7:29 PM Post
User avatar

The Weatherman
Global Moderator
Posts: 6498
Brew4U said:
This thread has been as hilarious as this deal. I’m so glad we have a GM with a brain. Moose is an average ML 3B. Getting attached to a guy that forgot to show up against the Dodgers two seasons ago is a bad idea. Next!


Yes because we should make our decisions based on one playoff series. Should we get rid of Yelich based on that series as well?


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 02, 2019, 7:31 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 14187
Location: Milwaukee, WI
owbc said:
Brew4U said:
This thread has been as hilarious as this deal. I’m so glad we have a GM with a brain. Moose is an average ML 3B. Getting attached to a guy that forgot to show up against the Dodgers two seasons ago is a bad idea. Next!


Yes because we should make our decisions based on one playoff series. Should we get rid of Yelich based on that series as well?


[laughing] Huh? Who said that’s why we got rid of him? The deal in itself is why he’s no longer a Brewer. Figure it out guy. He’s a Red. He’s now the enemy and will be treated as such.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 02, 2019, 11:14 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 2395
I think I'd rather sign Donaldson to 2 yrs/$64M than Moose to 4 Yrs/$64M. Not that I want to sign Donaldson for that deal, but maybe something like it.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 02, 2019, 11:42 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 487
Late to the discussion, was picking my jaw off the floor! Not surprised that Moose went somewhere else, but that contract is a total shocker!


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 02, 2019, 11:56 PM Post
Posts: 8259
owbc said:
If there is a critique of the Brewers FO it is that they didn't lock these guys into multiple years last winter. Knowing what we know now they both could have been signed to 3-year deals. That's the downside to the lower risk 1-year contracts.


they wouldn't have taken them. Grandal let it be known that he wanted to secure a high AAV, while it was surmised he wanted to come to Miller Park to put up a career year rather than playing 100 games between LA, SD, and SF. It he supposedly turned down 3 years and $54m last year, what would we have offered?

As for Moose, he came back for comfort, to chase a career year, and to audition his versatility. I expected him to get 3 years and $40 million. I didn't expect the 4th year at such a high AAV. Simply put, your point is invalid, as what drew them to us was the 1-year deal


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 03, 2019, 12:08 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 487
DHonks said:
owbc said:
If there is a critique of the Brewers FO it is that they didn't lock these guys into multiple years last winter. Knowing what we know now they both could have been signed to 3-year deals. That's the downside to the lower risk 1-year contracts.


they wouldn't have taken them. Grandal let it be known that he wanted to secure a high AAV, while it was surmised he wanted to come to Miller Park to put up a career year rather than playing 100 games between LA, SD, and SF. It he supposedly turned down 3 years and $54m last year, what would we have offered?

As for Moose, he came back for comfort, to chase a career year, and to audition his versatility. I expected him to get 3 years and $40 million. I didn't expect the 4th year at such a high AAV. Simply put, your point is invalid, as what drew them to us was the 1-year deal

I anticipated Grandal would a one year thing, but I actually thought Moose could have been brought back with a 3/36-42. Reds are going all in.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 03, 2019, 1:43 AM Post
Posts: 226
Reds got a steal. Brewers will miss Moose


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 03, 2019, 6:05 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 10234
brewersfan101 said:
Reds got a steal. Brewers will miss Moose


LOL no. They paid the tip top of market value. Far from a steal.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 03, 2019, 2:59 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 320
The emotional attachment some have to these decisions is disturbing. Plenty of time left for moves this offseason. This deal is way to risky for a team like the Brewers. Has Stearns not earned a level of trust with the fanbase? He's not perfect but if you told me when he was picked up as GM that they would have had the early success that they had I would be thrilled. Let it play out.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 03, 2019, 3:14 PM Post
Posts: 5207
Location: Madison, WI
Would've loved to have him back. But sorry that's just too much to pay. Good for him that he finally got his big payday. Maybe in hindsight they could've got him on like a 3 year deal before last year at say 40-45 mil. Who knows, maybe they tried to do exactly that but Moose decided to stick to the 1 year and keep this possibility open. Reds should be a really solid team next year.

Really not sure where they go from here at 1B and 3B. Thought after the Moose news that Shaw would then be back but I guess not.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 13, 2019, 12:16 AM Post
Posts: 12340
owbc said:
If there is a critique of the Brewers FO it is that they didn't lock these guys into multiple years last winter. Knowing what we know now they both could have been signed to 3-year deals. That's the downside to the lower risk 1-year contracts.


You nailed it. The Brewers don't make the playoffs in either 2018 or 2019 without Moustakas and it's likely now they won't in 2020 with him gone. Stearns failed to foresee that the market would be thin for 3B in 2019-2020 and should have locked in Moose for 3 years last offseason when he clearly could have been had for 3/45. Part of that calculation of course was the thought that Shaw would still be a productive power bat. To top it off, he inadvertently increased Moose's market value by playing him at 2B which was totally unnecessary. All that being said, they still could have afforded what the Reds gave him. Now their alternatives are to fork over even more to sign a Donaldson or watch their playoff window slammed shut. All this smoke about a Hader trade is a sign they realize they might have blew it.

This offseason to date has been terribly discouraging. It's almost as if ownership decided to cash in on two playoff seasons by taking a big profit in 2020 and trusting that the fans would still show up. Right now they look a lot like last years 90 loss Angels team. Yeah they still have a MVP caliber player but not nearly enough around him. When it's all said and done, the biggest miscalculation was not locking in Moose last year, and compounding that by not paying him what the market dictated this year. Brewer nation deserves better than that.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 13, 2019, 1:35 AM Post
Posts: 5071
JohnBriggs12 said:
owbc said:
If there is a critique of the Brewers FO it is that they didn't lock these guys into multiple years last winter. Knowing what we know now they both could have been signed to 3-year deals. That's the downside to the lower risk 1-year contracts.


You nailed it. The Brewers don't make the playoffs in either 2018 or 2019 without Moustakas and it's likely now they won't in 2020 with him gone. Stearns failed to foresee that the market would be thin for 3B in 2019-2020 and should have locked in Moose for 3 years last offseason when he clearly could have been had for 3/45. Part of that calculation of course was the thought that Shaw would still be a productive power bat. To top it off, he inadvertently increased Moose's market value by playing him at 2B which was totally unnecessary. All that being said, they still could have afforded what the Reds gave him. Now their alternatives are to fork over even more to sign a Donaldson or watch their playoff window slammed shut. All this smoke about a Hader trade is a sign they realize they might have blew it.

This offseason to date has been terribly discouraging. It's almost as if ownership decided to cash in on two playoff seasons by taking a big profit in 2020 and trusting that the fans would still show up. Right now they look a lot like last years 90 loss Angels team. Yeah they still have a MVP caliber player but not nearly enough around him. When it's all said and done, the biggest miscalculation was not locking in Moose last year, and compounding that by not paying him what the market dictated this year. Brewer nation deserves better than that.


In some ways, yes. I'd have preferred to pay Grandal and would have kept Thames. That said, I like Narvaez - and if the Crew kept Grandal, would they have acquired Narvaez? And Narvaez is about a third of the cost of Grandal for similar production.

Moose had a great year, but is he worth four years at $16 million a year? Probably not. Hader is an extremely valuable asset, but is his value what he does, or what he can bring? McNeil/Davis would set the corner IF positions for four-five years and be outstanding complements to Yelich. Hader goes, Drew Rasmussen steps in. Or Clayton Andrews. Or QTC.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 13, 2019, 5:21 AM Post
Posts: 2866
This logic doesn't work folks.

So you are trying to tell me MKE should have locked Moose up long term in 2019. Hiura was on the way and Shaw had been outperforming him up until that point. Where would he play? Second, what deal would he take? The market deflated on him. He took a prove it deal. You think 12 mil per 3 years was going to do the trick? I don't. You see it all across sports. He was wise to take the prove it deal. MKE got him inexpensively for that year. MKE won, Moose won. You have no idea what it would have taken to push him off a prove it deal and you had no idea Shaw would implode. This is hindsight and operating on information you simply can't know.

Then this trade Hader stuff because we have Andrews and QTC. Do you think the entire MLB is stupid? The entire MLB sees Hader as the best RP in baseball. Every metric puts his value through the roof. QTC didn't even get rule 5ed. By this logic I could just as easily say, "Hey guys we should trade Yelich. After all, we have Taylor and Gamel to take his place." I'm intrigued by QTC. He isn't Hader. Everyone sees Andrews as a solid RP option in the near future. Everyone knows Hader is a monster. He is the 2nd most valuable player on this team. Ahead of Woodruff and Hiura to this point. You don't just replace that with guys and no matter how many times you repeat it, it's still completely wrong. His 70-80 innings around 2.5 ERA (in high leverage no less) is one of the key pieces in keeping the teams ERA south of 4. They can't afford a Strasburg or a Cole. Due to that, they need Hader.

Cuff the 2 together for the next 3 years. Yelich and Hader are mandatory to the success of this squad. Neither can be replaced with some middling prospect and trading an nontraditional ACE pitcher so you can fill 3 low spectrum value positions is a horrible idea. Even when Hader is deep in Arby and expensive the big payroll teams are going to fight over him. They see what he can do and they won't care about his price tag ($s).


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Reds Sign Moustakas - 4 Years, $64m
Posted: December 13, 2019, 6:44 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 11236
Sure it would have been nice to lock Moustakas into a 3 year deal but it doesn't mean he would accept the deal we wanted to make. It is never good to try to read into these situations without any of the real details. Also once you hit 32 you are on heavy decline these years. This is the end of his career most likely and it is all going to be downhill from here. This deal could be a disaster for the Reds and at best it will be break even. It is a risky deal for them.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next  [ 133 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply
  


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search this forum (phpBB search):
Jump to:  
Search entire board (Google search):
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Test