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Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY

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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 10, 2020, 12:17 PM Post
Posts: 2391
jerichoholicninja said:
Bulldogboy said:
I am shocked at just how bad this was. I for one believe this title should have been stripped given what we know now. To have the manager and gm fired but contract extensions all around for the players involved is ridiculous and embarrassing.


And what exactly does "stripping the title" do? The Astros take down a banner, that's it. It accomplishes nothing.

It accomplishes we don't have to hear them referring to themselves as champions. Now would I stop there no I would not. I would be for a suspension of all players who participated but if the owner just keeps the flag up it sends a bad message. Vacate the title for that season. It doesn't hurt.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 10, 2020, 1:08 PM Post
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jerichoholicninja said:
Bulldogboy said:
I am shocked at just how bad this was. I for one believe this title should have been stripped given what we know now. To have the manager and gm fired but contract extensions all around for the players involved is ridiculous and embarrassing.


And what exactly does "stripping the title" do? The Astros take down a banner, that's it. It accomplishes nothing.




They could leave the banner up, but add a secondary banner that is permanently attached that says, "CHEATED" or something like that, so future generations will go to the ballpark and ask their grand-dads and grand-moms, "Papa, why does that sign say "CHEATED?"

I'm only half-serious.

- - - - - - - - -
P.I.T.C.H. LEAGUE CHAMPION 1989, 1996, 1999, 2000, 2006, 2007, 2011 (finally won another one)


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 10, 2020, 1:43 PM Post
Posts: 5061
Bulldogboy said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Bulldogboy said:
I am shocked at just how bad this was. I for one believe this title should have been stripped given what we know now. To have the manager and gm fired but contract extensions all around for the players involved is ridiculous and embarrassing.


And what exactly does "stripping the title" do? The Astros take down a banner, that's it. It accomplishes nothing.

It accomplishes we don't have to hear them referring to themselves as champions. Now would I stop there no I would not. I would be for a suspension of all players who participated but if the owner just keeps the flag up it sends a bad message. Vacate the title for that season. It doesn't hurt.


The 1919 World Series title wasn't vacated, and that was something arguably WORSE than the cheating scandal.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 10, 2020, 2:25 PM Post
Posts: 1132
clancyphile said:

The 1919 World Series title wasn't vacated, and that was something arguably WORSE than the cheating scandal.

True, but Cincinnati won it and was not accused of any wrong doing, so they should not be punished because of the criminal actions of their opponents. Houston won with the help of cheating.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 10, 2020, 5:16 PM Post
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
Blue Jays Pitcher Suing Astros

Boy, I hope this guy wins.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 10, 2020, 6:11 PM Post
Posts: 1132
Brew4U said:
Blue Jays Pitcher Suing Astros

Boy, I hope this guy wins.

As much as I want to see the Astros punished more, I wouldn't side with him if I were on the jury. He wasn't a good pitcher that year, even if you exclude the games against the Astros. His claim that he was one of the best pitchers in Japan seems dubious as well. That game may have been the final nail in his coffin, but he was already in the coffin with many nails in it.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 10, 2020, 6:22 PM Post
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
MadScientist said:
Brew4U said:
Blue Jays Pitcher Suing Astros

Boy, I hope this guy wins.

As much as I want to see the Astros punished more, I wouldn't side with him if I were on the jury. He wasn't a good pitcher that year, even if you exclude the games against the Astros. His claim that he was one of the best pitchers in Japan seems dubious as well. That game may have been the final nail in his coffin, but he was already in the coffin with many nails in it.


Hopefully more will join in on the suit. Burn that franchise to the ground.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 10, 2020, 8:07 PM Post
Posts: 2182
Location: Madison, WI
MadScientist said:
Brew4U said:
Blue Jays Pitcher Suing Astros

Boy, I hope this guy wins.

As much as I want to see the Astros punished more, I wouldn't side with him if I were on the jury. He wasn't a good pitcher that year, even if you exclude the games against the Astros. His claim that he was one of the best pitchers in Japan seems dubious as well. That game may have been the final nail in his coffin, but he was already in the coffin with many nails in it.


I agree with you at just face value. However, if he could get Toronto's GM (or similar front office official) to state that they final game against the Astros was the primary reason he was sent down (lost his job), then I think his bringing suit is legitimate and the legal system needs to sort it out.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 10, 2020, 9:39 PM Post
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I am just kind of enjoying how the whole thing isn't going away. It was a bush league thing to do. Let the franchise stew in the crap of their own making a bit more. Their championship will forever be tainted in the eyes of many. Not officially, but people won't forget. I'm waiting for the 'cheater' chants to follow the Astros around the league this year. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm betting some of the players (the position guys such as Altuve, Bregmann, Springer, etc.) get it thrown in their face for a while. I just wish McCann was around for it.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 11, 2020, 8:42 AM Post
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Dodgers and Yankees fans are gobbling up tickets to the Astros first road game:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latime ... f_amp=true


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 11, 2020, 6:53 PM Post
Posts: 1241
Brew4U said:
Blue Jays Pitcher Suing Astros

Boy, I hope this guy wins.


I wonder if Bolsinger lives in LA because I'm trying to figure out why a Toronto Blue Jay is suing the Houston Astros in California


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 11, 2020, 8:24 PM Post
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Marwin Gonzalez first player to put forth a somewhat true apology. I believe Gonzalez was a major recipient of trash can bangs too.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 11, 2020, 8:52 PM Post
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"Gonzalez posted a career-high .907 OPS in 2017. His next-highest OPS is .759 in 2015. His 23 home runs in 2017 are also seven more than he's hit in any other season."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/287 ... eel-regret


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 11, 2020, 8:54 PM Post
Posts: 13169
RoCoBrewfan said:
"Gonzalez posted a career-high .907 OPS in 2017. His next-highest OPS is .759 in 2015. His 23 home runs in 2017 are also seven more than he's hit in any other season."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/287 ... eel-regret


Yup, he has been a popular topic in the whole thing due to his perceived frequency of the sign stealing and huge outlier year at the same time.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 11, 2020, 9:07 PM Post
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Sometimes a guy just has a big season. A decent handful of Astros had their best season in 2017 though, even if it was by a small margin, like Altuve.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 12, 2020, 8:15 AM Post
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More news coming out that everyone in baseball has known about this since at least 2016. Apparently it was common knowledge among the advance scouts in the league. Yet, no one said anything. That tells me that every other team is doing something similar.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 12, 2020, 8:20 AM Post
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
Burn the entire league to the ground. I'll go watch Indy League ball.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 12, 2020, 8:51 AM Post
Posts: 2182
Location: Madison, WI
jerichoholicninja said:
More news coming out that everyone in baseball has known about this since at least 2016. Apparently it was common knowledge among the advance scouts in the league. Yet, no one said anything. That tells me that every other team is doing something similar.


The other dead giveaway that this was a league-wise problem is the fact that MLB was unwilling to suspend any players despite it being obvious that players should have been suspended. Set the precedent of suspending Astro players and then they will have to suspend Red Sox, Yankee, Cub, Brewer, etc, etc, etc, players when/if more information comes to light. No way the owners were willing to go down this path as it may have actually cost them some money in the end. Don't touch those money-makers, just throw a couple scapegoats under the bus and maybe it will all just go away.

Another eye-opening report at The Athletic today regarding Beltran.
https://theathletic.com/1600638/2020/02 ... ng-scheme/

Both McCann and Beltrán played for the Yankees during the 2014, ’15 and ’16 seasons before joining the Astros in ’17. But it was Beltrán who, according to multiple sources, told the Astros that their sign-stealing methods were “behind the times.”
During the season, small groups of Astros discussed their misgivings. McCann at one point approached Beltrán and asked him to stop, two members of the 2017 team said.


Now the Yankees got a slap on the wrist a couple years ago for improper use of the dugout phone. According to the Yankees, a member of the staff called the replay coordinator to find out if a ball was a strike or not.
https://www.sny.tv/yankees/news/what-ar ... /312352288
But if this latest report from The Athletic is accurate...it sure makes it look like the Yankees were not only cheating but probably "ahead of the times" when it came to using electronic technology to steal signs.

Another really ugly day for MLB.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 12, 2020, 9:23 AM Post
Posts: 13169
I don't think this was a league-wide problem. Any information of trash can banging or similar for any other team...nope. Any evidence of live sign stealing like that anywhere else? Doesn't appear so. If sign stealing was to these extremes anywhere else it would have popped up by now.

Also it appears while the Yankees may have been ahead of the times, the quote makes it pretty obvious it wasn't Astros level bad. If it was why would McCann ask them to stop doing it. I think Beltran wanted to be "ahead of the times" in Houston which meant even worse than what he saw in NY.

Sign stealing isn't a new revelation...nor is using technology to some extent. They didn't suspend players because they wanted them to talk...I think that was the main goal. It would have been nearly impossible to find enough information on their own to figure out what was going on let alone suspend players over it.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 12, 2020, 5:58 PM Post
Posts: 606
Location: Milwaukee
MrTPlush said:
Sign stealing isn't a new revelation...nor is using technology to some extent. They didn't suspend players because they wanted them to talk...I think that was the main goal. It would have been nearly impossible to find enough information on their own to figure out what was going on let alone suspend players over it.

I don't think this is true. There are lots of low level staffers that MLB could have gotten info from and not have to exempt all the players. Heck, even the bat boys probably knew what was going on.
I think this is just the tip of the iceberg and we will be hearing more and more teams that were doing this. This just amazes me that the players did not learn from the cheating going on the the 80's and 90's with PEDs. If true and everyone knew but kept silent about it, it will be a sad day for MLB.


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