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Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY

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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 12, 2020, 8:13 PM Post
Posts: 250
The CBA is expiring. It's already likely to be a contentious negotiation. Could it be that the lack of player suspensions is somehow linked to that? And how many players would they have to suspend? An entire team?

Just thinking aloud...

"Don't force him to choose between Chris Smalling and Phil Jones. It's like asking someone to choose between which STD to contract!"


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 13, 2020, 10:06 AM Post
Posts: 3653
Worse presser than Braun. That thing was bad.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 13, 2020, 10:08 AM Post
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stoutdude04 said:
Worse presser than Braun. That thing was bad.


I understand why they did it, but I don't know if there was anything they could have possibly done to help the situation. This thing today was going to be a bloodbath regardless.

Formerly Joey Meyer Bombs


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 13, 2020, 10:18 AM Post
Posts: 3653
Probably. Jim Crane could accept some responsibility or something. Claims it didn't affect games, etc, etc. I would think guys would realize if they just say sorry it will probably move on quicker. Instead we are in a deny, deny, deny cycle. Regardless...that was a bloodbath.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 13, 2020, 10:49 AM Post
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stoutdude04 said:
Worse presser than Braun. That thing was bad.


This was the equivalent of Braun's presser had we known Braun was a cheater when he had said presser.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 13, 2020, 11:12 AM Post
Posts: 3653
homer said:
stoutdude04 said:
Worse presser than Braun. That thing was bad.


This was the equivalent of Braun's presser had we known Braun was a cheater when he had said presser.


True. Although, I think it was worse because they were already busted and Crane was giving nothing answers. Sending up Baker was silly too.

There are more players coming out and saying things now that are doing a much better job, imo.


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Online  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 13, 2020, 12:10 PM Post
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Who gives a crap if players apologize? It changes nothing and means nothing.

Unless there's some major new information, can't we just move past this and get on to the 2020 season? The baseball media loves negative news and then beats that horse until there's nothing left on the carcass. If this were the NFL, this story would have been dead after about a week.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 13, 2020, 1:18 PM Post
Posts: 3055
Right, that whole Patriots thing just disappeared.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 13, 2020, 2:33 PM Post
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jerichoholicninja said:
Who gives a crap if players apologize? It changes nothing and means nothing.


I guess then why apologize for anything?

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Online  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 13, 2020, 9:25 PM Post
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homer said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Who gives a crap if players apologize? It changes nothing and means nothing.


I guess then why apologize for anything?


In this case, yes. Placate some fans and sports writers is all it will accomplish. And those that have already pre-determined their apologies are insincere will still think their apologies are insincere. I doubt this changes the opinions of opposing players one way or another.

Personally, the only Astro I want to hear from is Verlander about how he fought tooth and nail that they end the charade. Seeing as he's baseball's morality cop, he had to.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 13, 2020, 10:49 PM Post
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People will move on when the season starts and there is some actual baseball news other than this scandal. Except for opposing fans when the Astros are in town.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 14, 2020, 6:26 AM Post
Posts: 601
Location: Milwaukee
I think they have to apologize, otherwise the story will move to why the Astros refuse to apologize. Its part of the process, but yeah, it doesn't really solve anything. They still cheated.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 14, 2020, 7:40 AM Post
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I think to a lot of people it's not going to matter that they apologize. But I think to a lot of other people it will matter how they apologize. A lot of people want to feel like the apologies mean something. There's a lot of different viewpoints here and some people don't care. The thing already happened so an apology to those people feel pretty Hollow. I get that Viewpoint. To a lot of people it's important for them to understand that these guys feel some level of Contrition or remorse. I understand that Viewpoint also. If the apology Rings Hollow or False or just feels like a prepared statement then those people aren't really getting what they feel want out of an apology.

Edit to add I have no idea why my phone is just capitalizing certain random words.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 14, 2020, 9:44 AM Post
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owbc said:
People will move on when the season starts and there is some actual baseball news other than this scandal. Except for opposing fans when the Astros are in town.
jerichoholicninja said:
homer said:
jerichoholicninja said:
Who gives a crap if players apologize? It changes nothing and means nothing.


I guess then why apologize for anything?


In this case, yes. Placate some fans and sports writers is all it will accomplish. And those that have already pre-determined their apologies are insincere will still think their apologies are insincere. I doubt this changes the opinions of opposing players one way or another.

Personally, the only Astro I want to hear from is Verlander about how he fought tooth and nail that they end the charade. Seeing as he's baseball's morality cop, he had to.


I think this combo put together sums up my thoughts.

1. I don't care that much if they apologize. But more importantly, there is almost NOTHING that would've satisfied the masses short of outright handing the trophy back (which will not happen). If they were more sincere in their apologies and admitted to actual events, the door would be open for so many things. Lawsuits, sportswriters and fans losing their minds about the fact that they have the trophy with a tangible admission from the players, etc.

2. From a PR standpoint, this is being talked about as a disaster. While it might not have been perfect, again, if Altuve said, "I am deeply, deeply sorry for the buzzer I had on my chest, which may have cost the Yankees a shot at the World Series," this story would literally never end. Instead, they took the brunt of anger in February for being vague and the story will fade.

3. Going with #2, it's hard to apologize when you cannot say much of what you're apologizing for. And again, maybe it's a problem with the world and America in 2020...but it would be incredibly stupid to give up any specific details in an apology. Not only would you open up lawsuits/reasoning for pulling the championship/contracts in jeopardy thus setting a precedent...I'm 90% sure that at least 5 or 10 other teams are currently doing something similar. Putting more focus and scrutiny on the matter is only going to uncover more of those issues to the public eye. I'm sure some will respond with, "good, everyone should be punished" but I'm not sure if the game would recover very easily from that.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 16, 2020, 10:48 AM Post
Posts: 2014
Location: Madison, WI
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/287 ... ent-astros

What happened to the "we need the cooperation of players" excuse for not suspending players? Looks like it has been replaced with, "well the Astro players would have been victimized because they didn't get the memo" warped line of reasoning.

Rob Manfred sucks.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 16, 2020, 11:02 AM Post
Posts: 12927
JosephC said:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28714873/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-defends-punishment-astros

What happened to the "we need the cooperation of players" excuse for not suspending players? Looks like it has been replaced with, "well the Astro players would have been victimized because they didn't get the memo" warped line of reasoning.

Rob Manfred sucks.


Why? That’s an even more relevant excuse and pretty legitimate. Trying to suspend players would have been a massive mess that would have been a terrible look for months. The season would have been plagued with appeals and potential suspensions. They opted to punish the leaders of the team for creating it and allowing it.

This punishment is still miles and miles more extreme than most leagues would ever consider.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 16, 2020, 11:16 AM Post
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JosephC said:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28714873/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-defends-punishment-astros

What happened to the "we need the cooperation of players" excuse for not suspending players? Looks like it has been replaced with, "well the Astro players would have been victimized because they didn't get the memo" warped line of reasoning.

Rob Manfred sucks.


Did Manfred ever say "we need the cooperation of players"? I thought that was just speculation on media/fans part as to why players weren't penalized.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 16, 2020, 11:34 AM Post
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MrTPlush said:
JosephC said:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28714873/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-defends-punishment-astros

What happened to the "we need the cooperation of players" excuse for not suspending players? Looks like it has been replaced with, "well the Astro players would have been victimized because they didn't get the memo" warped line of reasoning.

Rob Manfred sucks.


Why? That’s an even more relevant excuse and pretty legitimate. Trying to suspend players would have been a massive mess that would have been a terrible look for months. The season would have been plagued with appeals and potential suspensions. They opted to punish the leaders of the team for creating it and allowing it.

This punishment is still miles and miles more extreme than most leagues would ever consider.


So rather than do what’s hard and what was needed, take the easy way out? What these players have gotten away with is just downright madness.

"I'm not as good as I was but in big moments I'm still the guy. I want that opportunity." -Ryan Braun


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 16, 2020, 11:44 AM Post
Posts: 5006
MrTPlush said:
JosephC said:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28714873/mlb-commissioner-rob-manfred-defends-punishment-astros

What happened to the "we need the cooperation of players" excuse for not suspending players? Looks like it has been replaced with, "well the Astro players would have been victimized because they didn't get the memo" warped line of reasoning.

Rob Manfred sucks.


Why? That’s an even more relevant excuse and pretty legitimate. Trying to suspend players would have been a massive mess that would have been a terrible look for months. The season would have been plagued with appeals and potential suspensions. They opted to punish the leaders of the team for creating it and allowing it.

This punishment is still miles and miles more extreme than most leagues would ever consider.


That is the problem. You run into issues of coercion, etc.

The Astros GM and manager were responsible to stop it, and didn't. Cora and Beltran were the apparent ringleaders.

All will not be back to MLB for a long time... if they ever do come back.


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Offline  Re: Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY
Posted: February 16, 2020, 12:08 PM Post
Posts: 1151
Location: Washburn, WI
Manfred stated that players that throw at Astros players intentionally will result in “more severe” suspensions. An unnamed player came out and stated essentially that players will get suspended for pegging a player, but you can cheat and win a World Series and not get suspended?

It’s nice how Manfred is getting out front now to protect the cheaters after not even giving them as much as a slap on the wrist. But now it’s time to lay down the law and suspend anyone trying to get retribution. And make the penalties MORE SEVERE to protect the cheaters while having lesser suspensions for players of other teams getting thrown at. What a joke.

This is going to lead MLB down a path that they absolutely wish they weren’t going down. Letting a team cheat to win it all, but now come out and protect the cheaters without letting their opponents get any type of payback while also giving the Astros added protection with the harsher penalties on their players getting hit.

There is going to be brawls between the Astros and other teams and the Astros deserve everything that is coming their way whether that’s hit batsmen, brawls, and suspensions from in-game fallouts.

Manfred is a joke. There will not be a worse commissioner to ever run MLB.


Last edited by RollieTime on February 16, 2020, 12:13 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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