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BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition

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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#61

Posted: June 14, 2017, 12:37 PM Post
Posts: 2118
I'm not really disappointed but with all of these trades and drafts if they don't acquire a Braun or Fielder type talent I will be disappointed. So I am not looking for any particular player to be that player but hopefully one emerges.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#62

Posted: June 14, 2017, 12:40 PM Post
Posts: 3780
. I don't recall any payer drafted in recent memory to be considered a can't miss prospect either.


I think Weeks was close to a can't miss prospect when he was drafted. And I think after a year or two in the minors Braun and Fielder we both considered can't miss type prospects as well. Pitching is another matter. I don't recall ever having a can't miss pitching prospect in our system.

I was really hoping we'd add an elite level talent this year in the draft but I don't get that sense with Hiura. Only time will tell of course but I'm really concerned about his defensive issues. He'll definitely need to hit his way into elite status.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#63

Posted: June 14, 2017, 12:47 PM Post
Posts: 142
paul253 said:
. I don't recall any payer drafted in recent memory to be considered a can't miss prospect either.


I think Weeks was close to a can't miss prospect when he was drafted. And I think after a year or two in the minors Braun and Fielder we both considered can't miss type prospects as well. Pitching is another matter. I don't recall ever having a can't miss pitching prospect in our system.

I was really hoping we'd add an elite level talent this year in the draft but I don't get that sense with Hiura. Only time will tell of course but I'm really concerned about his defensive issues. He'll definitely need to hit his way into elite status.



Right, I was speaking more to the post Braun draft era. Specifically, no one in the system currently.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#64

Posted: June 14, 2017, 2:01 PM Post
Posts: 3780
Oh ok. Yeah we've had some really poor draft picks lately.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#65

Posted: June 14, 2017, 6:34 PM Post
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
CheezWizHed said:
If we look back at the Braun/Fielder/Hardy/Weeks/Hart era, those guys were can't miss prospects that produced at a high level at each MiLB level (esp Braun/Fielder).

I think the expectations (or maybe hope is a better word) being expressed is that there really isn't anyone that is showing himself to be a standout, can't miss prospect. Lots of good players that will be quality MLBers some day. But only a few people that you can say he is the X (CF, SS, 2B, etc..) of the future.


I will give you Corey Hart though he basically mashed at every stop but Braun, Weeks, Hardy and Fielder didn't exactly produce at a high level at each MiLB level.

Weeks 2004 at AA:
.259/.366/.407

Hardy 2003 at AA:
.279/.368/.428

Braun 2006 at A+:
.274/.346/.438 in A+

Prince 2004 at AA:
.272/.366/.473

And for comparison this years players:
Gatewood at A+:
.292/.371/.496

Feliciano at A this is very impressive for an 18 year old catcher:
.266/.335/.367

Dubon at AA:
.289/.347/.370

While none of the current players are can't miss prospects to say that they are not doing well is a flat out lie and the expectations here are rather overly high. Gatewood and Dubon are having years similar to what some of the can't miss prospects have done. Hart for example in 2002 at A+ put up this stat line: .288/.356/.573 at a more hitter friendly league. Gatewood is close to matching what Hart did in 2002 and he is producing at a high level this year.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#66

Posted: June 14, 2017, 8:43 PM Post
Posts: 5449
So you picked the worst year by those guys, and they were all .800ish. Proves my point. We're not seeing that from Ray, Diaz, Clark, Dubon, Erceg, Lara, Nottingham, etc. They are not doing well. A couple are doing "fine" most are mediocre.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#67

Posted: June 14, 2017, 9:01 PM Post
Posts: 3780
Is this a development issue? Guys like Clark and Coulter and Ray and Nottingham are not bad hitters. Is it is something we are doing to them that is causing them to have such poor offensive numbers? Rushing players too much? Unnecessarily tweaking batting stances? Putting too much focus on power? It just can't be a coincidence that hardly any of these highly thought of prospects are having above average seasons offensively and I don't mean just his one season. Nottingham hasn't been good since he's got here. Ray has done nothing since being drafted and Clark seems like he should still be in Wisconsin. Diaz and Erceg shouldn't be struggling this much in A+, not after how good they were last year. And don't even get me started on Lara. He's been just awful.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#68

Posted: June 15, 2017, 7:11 AM Post
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FVBrewerFan said:
So you picked the worst year by those guys, and they were all .800ish. Proves my point. We're not seeing that from Ray, Diaz, Clark, Dubon, Erceg, Lara, Nottingham, etc. They are not doing well. A couple are doing "fine" most are mediocre.


That was the point of the post. Even some of the can't miss guys had years where their stats were just merely ok.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#69

Posted: June 15, 2017, 7:47 AM Post
Posts: 3780
That was the point of the post. Even some of the can't miss guys had years where their stats were just merely ok.


If only some of our current prospects could have seasons that were "merely ok" then becuase our current guys aren't even in the same league as prospects as Braun, Fielder, Weeks and even Hart were, and neither are the numbers they are putting up in the minors.

Other than Brinson and maybe Diaz I don't think there are any players in our system I can ever see being an all star, let alone a consistent star. I don't know what has happened but we just don't seem to be getting as much out of our prospects as we used to.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#70

Posted: June 15, 2017, 9:38 AM Post
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paul253 said:
That was the point of the post. Even some of the can't miss guys had years where their stats were just merely ok.


If only some of our current prospects could have seasons that were "merely ok" then becuase our current guys aren't even in the same league as prospects as Braun, Fielder, Weeks and even Hart were, and neither are the numbers they are putting up in the minors.

Other than Brinson and maybe Diaz I don't think there are any players in our system I can ever see being an all star, let alone a consistent star. I don't know what has happened but we just don't seem to be getting as much out of our prospects as we used to.


Gatewood looks like a potential All Star with the year he is having. But it looks like he is being ignored here.

If Gatewood continues to play like he has he may end up with a really good year.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#71

Posted: June 15, 2017, 9:44 AM Post
Posts: 3780
Gatewood is having a good half season. He was horrible in Wisconsin the last two seasons. I'm certainly hoping he's figured something out. He's definitely taking more walks. But he has a long way to go in my mind to be someone who should be considered a possible allstar at the Major League level.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#72

Posted: June 15, 2017, 10:04 AM Post
Posts: 5449
Yea, I'm not ignoring Gatewood. We were talking about the top prospects, top 10. Now Gatewood may or may not crack that list mid-season. But either way, I don't see him as a stud, at least not yet. We realize the entire minor league system is not a bust. There are bright spots. But for a system that was regarded as top 3-5 in MLB, just not seeing the star power to justify it....YET.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#73

Posted: June 15, 2017, 10:41 AM Post
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FVBrewerFan said:
Yea, I'm not ignoring Gatewood. We were talking about the top prospects, top 10. Now Gatewood may or may not crack that list mid-season. But either way, I don't see him as a stud, at least not yet. We realize the entire minor league system is not a bust. There are bright spots. But for a system that was regarded as top 3-5 in MLB, just not seeing the star power to justify it....YET.

Even before the season, the lack of star power was the Brewer system's biggest flaw - at least in the eyes of many analysts. We had a lot of good prospects - but there were no really, really great players - no can't miss guys. Brinson was/is probably the closet thing we had to that - but even he has his warts. That system assessment is probably still true.

I think the most disappointing thing for people on this board has been the poor seasons of Erceg and Diaz. Both looked great last year - and everyone hoped they'd build on their previous success.

Personally, I'm disappointed in Clark's year. I thought he'd rebound now that he was healthy. I'm cautiously optimistic about Ray, but the K rate spike is concerning.

I do want to point out that last year Diaz had a .232 BA and an OPS of .679 in the first half of the year. The point is that we still have over half a season to go - and so much can happen (both good and bad). Sure I wish he was hitting .300 - but it hasn't happened, and let's just hope he (and others) can get back on track.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#74

Posted: June 15, 2017, 11:57 AM Post
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1st round pick comparisons:
Braun (drafted 5th overall) : 1025, 871, 1119
Fielder's (7th): 998, 935, 839, 957
Weeks (2nd): 1052, 773, 1090

Clark (15th): 854, 690, 680*
Ray (5th): 678, 738*
Haniger(38th): 808, 779, 746, 883, 999
Roache(28th): 762, 697, 763, 749, 618*
Coulter(27th): 883, 714, 930, 725, 664, 739*
*2017- partial year

Braun, Weeks and Fielder did not have bad years. Each one one "down" year, but that "down" year was still pretty good. Very different from our current guys.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#75

Posted: June 15, 2017, 12:25 PM Post
Posts: 142
CheezWizHed said:
1st round pick comparisons:
Braun (drafted 5th overall) : 1025, 871, 1119
Fielder's (7th): 998, 935, 839, 957
Weeks (2nd): 1052, 773, 1090

Clark (15th): 854, 690, 680*
Ray (5th): 678, 738*
Haniger(38th): 808, 779, 746, 883, 999
Roache(28th): 762, 697, 763, 749, 618*
Coulter(27th): 883, 714, 930, 725, 664, 739*
*2017- partial year

Braun, Weeks and Fielder did not have bad years. Each one one "down" year, but that "down" year was still pretty good. Very different from our current guys.


You'd have a hard time convincing me that anyone currently in the system would belong in the same conversation as Braun, Fielder, or Weeks as prospects. Those guys were blue chip players. I know Ray was a tip five pick but not all draft classes are created equal.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#76

Posted: June 15, 2017, 12:51 PM Post
Posts: 142
Nelson Cruz was mixed into that group, I believe he had sub .750 OPS in A ball too. Mookie Betts, Jonathan Lucroy are couple of other names that had sub .800 OPS numbers at some point and they turned out to be all stars. My guess is if you really looked, you'd find a whole bunch more.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#77

Posted: June 15, 2017, 1:15 PM Post
Posts: 42
leitermab07 said:
82brewcrew82 said:
leitermab07 said:
For me,as the season has continued I have been more dissapointed than anything else.. That is mainly because I look for the top tier prospects to produce or get better throughout the year. Especially when in A+ ball or lower. Diaz, Diplan, Erceg, Clark fall into that category.

I have been impressed with some lower ranked prospects that will get a big bump in their ratings in the future. Those are: Feliciano, Gatewood, Harrison, Supak, and Burnes.

All in all I have said this team is loaded with depth, but lacks that elite player (s), and this year is showing that to be true again. Outside the AAA team, there are not alot of guys hitting .300 or having an OPS above .800


I think this is the big issue when it comes to these debates about the system as a whole. There are no elite level prospects that are going to dominate with huge numbers all the way through the system. We have some guys that will be regulars, maybe even all stars, but those are the kinds of guys that have up and down development cycles. We don't have that guy that is going to OPS 850+ at every singe level. If that is what you are expecting, then you are going to be disappointed. If your expectations are more aligned with the actual talent level, then you are probably in the more optimistic camp.



Are you saying there are none, or are you saying we have none in our system? If you are saying the latter I agree. To say there are no elite level prospects who put up around .300 ba and around .850 Ops throughout all minor league systems is just wrong. Robles, Moncada, Rosario, Jimenez, Devers, Mejia, Acuna just to name a few that are top 100 prospects right now that have put up those numbers on all levels.. there are plenty of those examples of guys in the MLB too(look at Keiths Law of Top players under 26 in the MLB, they all raked throughout all of MLB). That is what makes them thought of being the elites of the minor league prospects and elites of MILB)... I agree its not all stats, but stats do tell you some info and for guys like Erceg and Diaz I expected at least their OPS to be much better.. I was hoping one or a couple guys could elevate themselves into the belief of scouts that they are the other elite prospects, but that hasn't happened. Hence why I am a little unimpressed with the minors so far, but there is another half of the season left. Def will be looking for improvements from the Carolina squad.



Find it interesting that two of the 7 elite prospects you referenced as consistently dominating have also had their elongated struggles. Both of those guys have been some of my favorite prospects in baseball and I stayed on their train while they struggled, but I would stay on the train for Diaz, etc. as well. Didn't look up the other guys and don't follow them as close as I have with weekly statistical check-ins like devers and mejia.

Last year at this very moment people were pushing Devers down their rankings as he has a .635 OPS in the first half of the season(not too dissimilar to what Diaz did last year and could do again this year). Mejia had a .670 OPS and in general struggled in his full-season debut at 19 in the midwest league (Hey our 18 year old catcher in Wisconsin is outperforming that).

To say elite players/prospects have continued dominance couldn't be further from the truth. Further, to make a call on their prospect status after 2 months is simply a bad decision.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#78

Posted: June 15, 2017, 1:23 PM Post
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82brewcrew82 said:
CheezWizHed said:
1st round pick comparisons:
Braun (drafted 5th overall) : 1025, 871, 1119
Fielder's (7th): 998, 935, 839, 957
Weeks (2nd): 1052, 773, 1090

Clark (15th): 854, 690, 680*
Ray (5th): 678, 738*
Haniger(38th): 808, 779, 746, 883, 999
Roache(28th): 762, 697, 763, 749, 618*
Coulter(27th): 883, 714, 930, 725, 664, 739*
*2017- partial year

Braun, Weeks and Fielder did not have bad years. Each one one "down" year, but that "down" year was still pretty good. Very different from our current guys.


You'd have a hard time convincing me that anyone currently in the system would belong in the same conversation as Braun, Fielder, or Weeks as prospects. Those guys were blue chip players. I know Ray was a tip five pick but not all draft classes are created equal.


I think you missed my point. The lists aren't there for comparison, they are there for contrast. The point is the recent 1st round picks aren't similar to the Braun/Fielder/Weeks group.

And of course there are exceptions for late bloomers (Lucroy). I have no doubt (and quite a few hopes) that we have a several late bloomers in the current crop of players.

But still no one (maybe Brinson) categorizes as a no doubt MLB player.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#79

Posted: June 15, 2017, 2:20 PM Post
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I think Gatewood if he continues on his current path he is very comparable to Hart at about 1 year younger also.


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Offline  Re: BF.net Fan Community Top 25 Prospects - 2017 Pre-Season Edition
#80

Posted: June 15, 2017, 2:36 PM Post
Posts: 142
CheezWizHed said:
82brewcrew82 said:
CheezWizHed said:
1st round pick comparisons:
Braun (drafted 5th overall) : 1025, 871, 1119
Fielder's (7th): 998, 935, 839, 957
Weeks (2nd): 1052, 773, 1090

Clark (15th): 854, 690, 680*
Ray (5th): 678, 738*
Haniger(38th): 808, 779, 746, 883, 999
Roache(28th): 762, 697, 763, 749, 618*
Coulter(27th): 883, 714, 930, 725, 664, 739*
*2017- partial year

Braun, Weeks and Fielder did not have bad years. Each one one "down" year, but that "down" year was still pretty good. Very different from our current guys.


You'd have a hard time convincing me that anyone currently in the system would belong in the same conversation as Braun, Fielder, or Weeks as prospects. Those guys were blue chip players. I know Ray was a tip five pick but not all draft classes are created equal.


I think you missed my point. The lists aren't there for comparison, they are there for contrast. The point is the recent 1st round picks aren't similar to the Braun/Fielder/Weeks group.

And of course there are exceptions for late bloomers (Lucroy). I have no doubt (and quite a few hopes) that we have a several late bloomers in the current crop of players.

But still no one (maybe Brinson) categorizes as a no doubt MLB player.


My mistake and I do agree with your premise. Having said that, I don't think Lucroy was a late bloomer, he always had potential. It just took some time for that potential to develop. He was just a different class of prospect than a Fielder or Braun. I believe we have several prospects that fit into that category and that class of prospect sometimes has struggles and take time to develop. Doesn't we mean they won't become very good players and even all-stars.

If you (and this is not directed at anyone in particular) are disappointed that a non-blue chip player is not performing at a blue chip level, that is a you (again, no one in particular here) problem. Which is what this whole thing has been about, expectations.


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