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2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT [Brewers win, 7-5, 10 innings]

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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:28 PM Post
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With a three run lead you throw strikes and make them beat you. Solo HRs don't hurt. Nibbling on the corners and walking a couple of guys is the last thing you want to do. Feliz did his job.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:31 PM Post
Posts: 10173
SterlingArcher said:
What has this clown done, other than cash a big paycheck every week, to be considered our closer?


This is a whole other conversation, but in my opinion the 'closer' is one of the most overrated and silly positions in professional sports, and it blows my mind that most teams continued to be married to one year after year like sheep, and pay highly disproportionate prices for them.

In our case I would guess we are hoping that we can take advantage of that and sell Feliz at the deadline, but I don't have a ton of confidence he's going to be worth much.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:33 PM Post
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Glad during the rebuild we're picking up average players like Shaw to knock us down the draft boards.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:33 PM Post
Posts: 246
I wouldn't have predicted this record; compared to the last two month's April it's a gift.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:34 PM Post
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Location: Central PA
Clutch offense bailed out the team tonight. Hate seeing the four-run leads evaporating, but that W in STL looks good.

Those were two mammoth HRs tonight by Villar and Shaw. Very sweet to see those swings from the left side of the plate. Just needed a Thames homer for the lefty hat trick.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:38 PM Post
Posts: 10173
trwi7 said:
Glad during the rebuild we're picking up average players like Shaw to knock us down the draft boards.


What's the problem with Shaw? Should be good for 25-30 HR and serviceable defense at 3rd. Can't have a Braun or Thames at every position. The guy is 27, its not like he couldn't be here for a few years.

Difference between #9 and #13 in the draft or whatever difference Shaw makes is relatively meaningless.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:40 PM Post
Posts: 6387
Location: Kenosha, WI
If I told you on May 1st we would be over .500 and tied for first place with the Cubs would you be happy? End of story. As bad as some things have been this is way better than I ever could have imagined.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:43 PM Post
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adambr2 said:
What's the problem with Shaw?


The fact that he's a 27 year old average player with little upside on a rebuilding team and we went out and sought a trade for him? I completely disagree with the way Stearns is handling this rebuild and I don't know if he has Attanasio in his ear telling him not to bottom out but it's like they're afraid to lose 100 games when that would be infinitely better than losing 86.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:46 PM Post
Posts: 1249
trwi7 said:
adambr2 said:
What's the problem with Shaw?


The fact that he's a 27 year old average player with little upside on a rebuilding team and we went out and sought a trade for him? I completely disagree with the way Stearns is handling this rebuild and I don't know if he has Attanasio in his ear telling him not to bottom out but it's like they're afraid to lose 100 games when that would be infinitely better than losing 86.


Who cares...enjoy the season. It's not like the #3 pick is any more likely to be a star than the #20 pick. MLB draft is a total crapshoot.

You play to win the game, otherwise go cheer for the Padres.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:52 PM Post
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superfly said:
Who cares...


I care.

enjoy the season.


I'm not going to enjoy a mediocre season.

It's not like the #3 pick is any more likely to be a star than the #20 pick. MLB draft is a total crapshoot.


The higher you pick, the more choices you have and the more money you have. Spoiler alert: That's a good thing.

You play to win the game, otherwise go cheer for the Padres.


I'm not playing, so I don't give a crap. 14 extra losses in a season isn't going to destroy me emotionally, so I'd much rather see that.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:55 PM Post
Posts: 6387
Location: Kenosha, WI
I think you are vastly overrating the impact of Travis Shaw in the W/L over the next best player(Perez) who is incredibly similar.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 10:00 PM Post
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LouisEly said:
With a three run lead you throw strikes and make them beat you. Solo HRs don't hurt. Nibbling on the corners and walking a couple of guys is the last thing you want to do. Feliz did his job.


Exactly.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 10:03 PM Post
Posts: 503
trwi7 said:
Glad during the rebuild we're picking up average players like Shaw to knock us down the draft boards.

Just think how many games they would lose if they just forfeited every game! The new efficiency?


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 10:05 PM Post
Posts: 1249
trwi7 said:
superfly said:
It's not like the #3 pick is any more likely to be a star than the #20 pick. MLB draft is a total crapshoot.


The higher you pick, the more choices you have and the more money you have. Spoiler alert: That's a good thing.


How's that working out for the Twins? Buxton really looks like a perennial all star. Sano and Kepler were international signings. Their other high end picks have flopped. Kansas City drafted high for years/decades before they hit on something. The Yankees/Red Sox/Tigers/etc like to buy talent. There's examples of all different kinds of ways to build a team. If it happens we get a high pick that's great, but IMO i'll take the mid round pick from here and lets see what Harrison, Gatewood, etc do and let's crush it. Giannis wasn't a top pick, Rodgers, etc. You can find talent anywhere.

I don't buy you dislike we're 0.5 back of the division lead in May considering what was expected out of this team. Even the most bearish of fans has to have a sliver of happiness. If we don't give up 5 run leads we'd be 3-4 games better too.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 10:15 PM Post
Posts: 6387
Location: Kenosha, WI
superfly said:
I don't buy you dislike we're 0.5 back of the division lead in May considering what was expected out of this team. Even the most bearish of fans has to have a sliver of happiness. If we don't give up 5 run leads we'd be 3-4 games better too.


Agreed and I don't buy that 100 losses is better than 86 losses. Anyone who vouches for tanking and piling up losses never thinks what it takes to lose 100 games. That means A LOT of bad things are happening and we are years away from competing. Travis Shaw is not the difference between 86 losses and 100. He is probably not a 2 game difference maker. I would LOVE for this team to end the season very close to the .500 either direction WAAAY more than I would want to see 90+ losses and a good draft pick.

Finding three more players for the next competing team>>>>Losing 14 more games for a slight improvement in draft pick.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 10:17 PM Post
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Jesus, of course you can find talent everywhere but the higher you pick, the more talent is available to you. You still have to pick it.

Hey, that 81-81 team in 2006 was feel good (I guess) story but looking back, wouldn't you rather be a little worse and draft between 7 and 11 where Kershaw, Lincecum and Scherzer went instead of 16th where we took Jeffress?

In seasons where we actually don't care about wins and losses as a franchise, like this one and the one last year and maybe even next year. I'd much rather lose a ton than put out a middling team, which it seems like we're trying to do.

Hell, it's not even like you can say we're winning on the backs of our prospects and young players. We're winning on the backs of 30 year olds.

We're letting young talent get taken in the Rule V over crappy veterans and then getting rid of said veterans while losing the young talent anyways.

It's incredibly frustrating.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 10:22 PM Post
Posts: 10173
trwi7 said:
adambr2 said:
What's the problem with Shaw?


The fact that he's a 27 year old average player with little upside on a rebuilding team and we went out and sought a trade for him? I completely disagree with the way Stearns is handling this rebuild and I don't know if he has Attanasio in his ear telling him not to bottom out but it's like they're afraid to lose 100 games when that would be infinitely better than losing 86.


I agree with a lot of what you say many times but I cannot get behind this mentality at all.

No rebuild is created equal, but the goal here is not to lose as many games as possible to get the highest possible draft picks until we can pinpoint when we're ready to contend again. There's a lot more at play. If you're perennially losing 100+ games, you're likely to see fan interest falling, and sometimes it's hard to get it back. That's obviously going to affect revenue, and potentially, free agent interest when we're ready to contend again.

They are not afraid to lose 100 games. They went out and sold their all-star centerfielder, their all-star catcher, their top 3 bullpen arms, a good left fielder, their starting shortstop, and they attempted to sell Braun, all in the course of the last two years.

Maybe this isn't an 86 loss team. Maybe it's an 80 loss team. That's still not good enough, but it's a lot easier to figure out how far you need to go when you're an 80 loss team versus when you're a 100 loss trainwreck.

I also think you're putting too much stock into draft position. Corey Ray was mocked #1 in many mocks last year, and no one would have argued had he gone #1. He went 5. Kyle Lewis, despite the injury, might end up being the best player from that round and he went #11. Unless you have a no-brainer, can't miss #1 like a Bryce Harper, which most drafts don't, it's way too early in the evaluation process to worry about a few draft spots. Obviously, earlier is better, but not at the expense of everything else. There's long-term goals, obviously, but players and managers still have short-term goals to win games, even if championship aspirations aren't realistic. You really set a bad precedent if you're the FO who tosses all that out the window and ignores all short-term goals at the expense of frustrating your players, coaches and fans.

I also don't agree with your evaluation of Shaw. He's never going to be a star in this league, but he may be fully capable of being a 30 HR, 2.5-3 WAR player with good defense. That has value, very good value, actually, especially for a cost-controlled player. And if you determine you're further away than you thought, the roster is always fluid, and you can look to trade him later. He's 27. There's absolutely nothing set in stone that says he can't be part of a playoff Brewer team at age 30 in 3 years. He's part of the evaluation process right now. In any event, who is he blocking? Lucas Erceg is not exactly knocking the door down to the MLB club this year.

I am stunned that anyone completely disagrees with the way Stearns is handling the rebuild. The rebuild appears to be going about as well as could be expected. This is a young team, 5th youngest before they cut Milone, probably younger now. It's not like they are doing this with a team of aging vets. I think you would even admit Thames was obviously a very smart move. I have no issue with Shaw. He wasn't even the main piece in the deal, and I think they wanted to make sure to cut bait with Thornburg now before more injury issues arose, which appears to have been right on the money. Obviously, Stearns isn't batting 1.000, nor has any GM ever done so, but what isn't he doing that you would like to see him do? I just don't understand. Not every trade made it going to be straight up players for young prospects.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 10:24 PM Post
Posts: 6387
Location: Kenosha, WI
trwi7 said:
Hey, that 81-81 team in 2006 was feel good (I guess) story but looking back, wouldn't you rather be a little worse and draft between 7 and 11 where Kershaw, Lincecum and Scherzer went instead of 16th where we took Jeffress?

In seasons where we actually don't care about wins and losses as a franchise, like this one and the one last year and maybe even next year. I'd much rather lose a ton than put out a middling team, which it seems like we're trying to do.


Well to be worse you have to give something up. What if that means Prince Fielder is worth 2 WAR less that year(then translates into future years). Still want the better draft pick?

I always care about wins as that typically reflects the production of the team and why wouldn't I want guys like Pina, Villar, Santana, etc, etc, etc performing well causing wins? This team is mostly young controllable guys. Why would I not cheer for Travis Shaw to play well? He is controllable for awhile. Why would I be mad Thames won us a ton of games in April? That seems like a good thing. I hope to heck these guy win a lot of games! And as you mentioned the prospects aren't even here which makes it that much more sweet when we add them.


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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 10:32 PM Post
Posts: 1249
trwi7 said:
Jesus, of course you can find talent everywhere but the higher you pick, the more talent is available to you. You still have to pick it.

Hey, that 81-81 team in 2006 was feel good (I guess) story but looking back, wouldn't you rather be a little worse and draft between 7 and 11 where Kershaw, Lincecum and Scherzer went instead of 16th where we took Jeffress?


Don't forget Hochevar was 1st overall and he amounted to a BP arm, and not even an elite one. I have no idea who Greg Reynolds is (#2), I wouldn't say Brad Lincoln or Brandon Morrow (#4/#5) were world beaters either. 8, 9, 12, 13, 14 were mediocre to total busts too.

I don't even trust that Brewer management would have picked Kershaw, Timmy, or Scherzer anyway, nor that they would have developed in our system.

Maybe you should experience the Twin Cities for a season where a once proud fan base has ERODED after years of 90+ losses and drafting that hasn't worked out. The Twins are the joke of the town and nobody gives 2 rips, do you really want this in Milwaukee? Because don't fool yourself, it will happen in that small town. The WORST thing you can do to a fan base is create apathy and indifference. I'm all for tearing it down, but we did that already...now it's time to move ahead and start building.


Last edited by superfly on May 01, 2017, 10:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: 2017-05-01: Brewers (Davies) at Cardinals (Wacha) 7:15 PM CDT
Posted: May 01, 2017, 10:39 PM Post
Posts: 246
There were a LOT of empty seats in the outfield - I'm kind of shocked; I would have thought the classiest fans in baseball would have made it a sea of red.


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