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2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]

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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT
Posted: August 06, 2017, 2:36 PM Post
Posts: 3002
Ennder said:
Yeah I'm not sure a bunt is a smart move with your slow running catcher with strike out machines behind him.

I'll take Barnes over Hughes or Drake in general. I don't know what to think of Hader, his peripherals have still been just awful so I don't trust him even a little bit. Hard to blame the manager on this one. The offense has to figure it out, they have an OPS right around .650 since the all star break and that isn't going to work.


That is the big problem.

You can't win if you don't score runs.

There has to be a hard look at the offense - figure out who can and who can't produce.


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT
Posted: August 06, 2017, 2:38 PM Post
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Posts: 515
Location: La Crosse
Good news: Nats are only down 1 run now


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT
Posted: August 06, 2017, 2:43 PM Post
Posts: 906
I'm telling you, when Vogt gets back, this offense will get better. I know it sounds strange, but you watch and see.


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT
Posted: August 06, 2017, 2:46 PM Post
Posts: 9490
TJseven7 said:
I'm so sick of the nay sayers of old school move the runners baseball. No one can bunt well enough for them. Broxton strikes out 100% of the time right? For numbers people they sure do ignore a lot of them then act like they are the final say and decades of baseball minds are just old and stupid.

Manufacturing runs... teams have tried it for ages... they weren't all idiots... offenses in a funk need to do it... but blind stats man... and k hitters man.

Just say it computer guys... you dont want to see a single bunt ever. Maybe some pitchers but only if they bunt well and hit miserably.


People would take you a lot more seriously if you explained things logically rather than just 'rabble rabble rabble, back in the old days!!'

Saying it was done this way for ages isn't good enough. Shifting wasn't done for ages either. Things change.

I'm not saying I wouldn't have wanted to see a bunt there. I wouldn't have minded but I see the logic against it, too. It's no more of a sure thing than what we did. If it was, we could have sac bunted and then squeezed and had a 2-1 lead; if it waa that certain I'm sure we would have done it.


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT
Posted: August 06, 2017, 2:49 PM Post
Posts: 296
RoCoBrewfan said:
TJseven7 said:
RoCoBrewfan said:
Bunts dont always work, and with a high k guy like broxton coming up its not necessarily the right decision.

Using Barnes in another high leverage situation, I just cant wrap my head around.


1 of our 6 runs in 26 innings was caused by a wild pitch and you think bunting is a bad idea. When the offense is this bad you force runs across any way you can and swing away isnt working.


I didnt say it was a bad idea. I said it wasnt necessarily the right decision. People are making this black and white, which it is not. The assumption is that Pina automatically gets the bunt down and moves the runners over. That is not a guarantee. Then you have a very poor contact hitter in Broxton. He k's 40% of the time. Youre giving up an out for potentially no advantage, and potentially giving up an out without moving runners. When people call for bunts they always assume best case scenario of runners moved over.

With a man on 3rd even contact doesnt guarantee that you score thr runner. Popups, shallow fly ball, hard ground outs....

The end point is this; given the scenario its reasonable for some to argue that with a man already on 2nd, having 3 chances for a run scoring hit is better than 2 chances for some kind of run scoring contact. It wasnt a black and white "yes" for a bunt.


Yes it is a black and white...yes bunt.

But maybe its a bad bunt... maybe he hits a gidp... maybe he ks or pops up. What are the odds of him moving the runners successfully to 2nd and 3rd with a bunt vs a ball in play. Its likely better with a bunt than other outcomes. Take your odds.... but what if he fails? Then he fails. Doesn't mean the decision was dumb... the results sucked. He made the dumb decision and the results destroyed his team today. That's the problem. Do the right thing accept the results.

But broxton ks 40%.... again is that under 100 cuz analytic people sure do use it to cover their bible of situation blind numbers as if its 100%. Did we score a run on a wp last night. Did broxton K?

We dont need a big inning.... we needed 1. You bunt them over. If TB can make you fail at that... then kudoz to them... but moving the runners is the play. Then you hope for 60% of broxton outcomes that give you a chance at plating that run... if he doesn't you get chance 2 with arcia.

Did arcia bat? No? So pina broxton maybe arcia over broxton arcia with runners on 2nd and 3rd... yeah option 2... every day option 2.

But he could fail!!!!!


Edit: I mean, really?


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 3:04 PM Post
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Posts: 515
Location: La Crosse
Nats put up a 5 spot to go up 8-4!


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 3:05 PM Post
Posts: 296
No that's said for a specific point. Had a brilliant professor (philosophy) in college who used to ask these questions of his class all the time.

WHY?

Because we've gotten to a point where we no longer trust judgement of our conscience. We overthink everything to death. Well he might strike out or but the bunt could go wrong. If you are educated your non emotion snap decision is ultimately most accurate. You start to over analyze you can talk yourself into any concievable possibke outcome... but right is right... and in an unemotional mind tgat is educated... right is instant.

Struggling offense short pen tie game low scoring... auto manufacture runs bunt.

When he asked this students would freeze... all semester long.... is it a trick... is my snap judgement correct.... and they'd pacify themselves into saying nothing or making a case for both.

There is a right... outcome be damned. You bunt.

Im 35 I give zero damns about the good old days and am too young for nestolga.


Last edited by TJseven7 on August 06, 2017, 3:11 PM, edited 2 times in total.

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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 3:07 PM Post
Posts: 429
OnaBadger58 said:
Nats put up a 5 spot to go up 8-4!


It's nice to see a team that can put up a big inning. Go Nats!


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 3:19 PM Post
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Posts: 654
So our offense has been nice for about three months and bad for almost a month and a half...what is real is becoming a valid question.


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT
Posted: August 06, 2017, 4:06 PM Post
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Posts: 2908
Location: Madison
homer said:
tomwopat said:
Despite the walkoff a great game for all 12,129 that bothered to show up.


Tom, sorry about your arrest last week.


[laughing]


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 4:58 PM Post
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The Weatherman
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https://twitter.com/Brewers/status/894315465631248384

Yikes...


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 5:13 PM Post
Posts: 329
Location: Arizona
Is there something Counsell does that he is exceptionally good at? I don't see one but there are some glaring weaknesses that just don't get better. Why does the front office basically seem to think this guy can do no wrong?


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 5:19 PM Post
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Posts: 5458
Lee16 said:
Is there something Counsell does that he is exceptionally good at? I don't see one but there are some glaring weaknesses that just don't get better. Why does the front office basically seem to think this guy can do no wrong?


We have no indication that they think he does no wrong. Just because Stearns or Schlesinger don't question his in game decisions or lineup making doesnt mean that he may not be constantly evaluated behind the scenes. They may have a weekly or even daily discussion about how he is handling the team. We dont know.


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT
Posted: August 06, 2017, 5:28 PM Post
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Brewcrewin07 said:
I'm telling you, when Vogt gets back, this offense will get better. I know it sounds strange, but you watch and see.


I forgot he was even on the team. [sad]

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 5:32 PM Post
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TJseven7 said:
No that's said for a specific point. Had a brilliant professor (philosophy) in college who used to ask these questions of his class all the time.

WHY?

Because we've gotten to a point where we no longer trust judgement of our conscience.


That's because humans make illogical decisions all the time....most of the time without even realizing it. Read up on Kahneman - won nobel prize in econ - and his work on bias in decision making.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 6:07 PM Post
Posts: 1070
How in the world does CC not bunt Pina in the 9th, especially right after the Rays messed up the play with Perez. absolutely mind boggling. The way our offense is playing it may be time to so some small ball, actually I think we're past that point.


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 6:42 PM Post
Posts: 1713
owbc said:
https://twitter.com/Brewers/status/894315465631248384

Yikes...


I know this is just how today's athlete behaves and one could argue it just keeps them loose.

I guess I'm old school and wish the players cared as much about baseball as we do. But seeing them and especially Thames at the wrestling match was so lame. He really looks silly acting like that when he has been so bad since April.


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 7:01 PM Post
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Boomer5 said:
owbc said:
https://twitter.com/Brewers/status/894315465631248384

Yikes...


I know this is just how today's athlete behaves and one could argue it just keeps them loose.

I guess I'm old school and wish the players cared as much about baseball as we do. But seeing them and especially Thames at the wrestling match was so lame. He really looks silly acting like that when he has been so bad since April.


Was all of this, especially the bolder part, supposed to be in blue? So if these guys don't act like robots they don't care? Heaven forbid if people actually enjoy their lives including their profession.


Last edited by Brew4U on August 06, 2017, 7:01 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 7:01 PM Post
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Posts: 5458
Boomer5 said:
owbc said:
https://twitter.com/Brewers/status/894315465631248384

Yikes...


I know this is just how today's athlete behaves and one could argue it just keeps them loose.

I guess I'm old school and wish the players cared as much about baseball as we do. But seeing them and especially Thames at the wrestling match was so lame. He really looks silly acting like that when he has been so bad since April.


I'm willing to bet that a great many of them care about baseball a lot more than we do. Just because they're not mad that they lost a game doesn't mean they don't care. Being mad all the time isn't an indication of care. Having fun at your job is necessary sometimes.


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Offline  Re: 2017-08-06: Brewers (Nelson) at Rays (Archer) 12:10 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1]
Posted: August 06, 2017, 7:05 PM Post
Posts: 1713
RoCoBrewfan said:
Boomer5 said:
owbc said:
https://twitter.com/Brewers/status/894315465631248384

Yikes...


I know this is just how today's athlete behaves and one could argue it just keeps them loose.

I guess I'm old school and wish the players cared as much about baseball as we do. But seeing them and especially Thames at the wrestling match was so lame. He really looks silly acting like that when he has been so bad since April.


I'm willing to bet that a great many of them care about baseball a lot more than we do. Just because they're not mad that they lost a game doesn't mean they don't care. Being mad all the time isn't an indication of care. Having fun at your job is necessary sometimes.


Did you see the twitter pic? The optics are very bad on several levels.


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