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2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1 -- 13 Innings]

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Offline  2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 2-1 -- 13 Innings]
#1

Posted: October 16, 2018, 5:19 AM Post
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Brewers Lineup       	        Dodgers Lineup

1. Lorenzo Cain (R) CF 1. Chris Taylor (R) LF
2. Christian Yelich (L) RF 2. Justin Turner (R) 3B
3. Ryan Braun (R) LF 3. David Freese (R) 1B
4. Jesús Aguilar (R) 1B 4. Manny Machado (R) SS
5. Mike Moustakas (L) 3B 5. Brian Dozier (R) 2B
6. Jonathan Schoop (R) 2B 6. Enrique Hernández (R) CF
7. Manny Piña (R) C 7. Yasiel Puig (R) RF
8. Orlando Arcia (R) SS 8. Austin Barnes (R) C
9. Gio González (R) P 9. Rich Hill (L) P


Link: Brewers Game Notes

TV Broadcast on FS1


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#2

Posted: October 16, 2018, 5:21 AM Post
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I'm predicting some Rich Hill hanging breakka balls get hit hard (and far). Big game for Yelich, too.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#3

Posted: October 16, 2018, 5:26 AM Post
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I thought CC might start Woody to get the RHP lineup starting for the Dodgers and then go to Gio to force them to decide to matchup early before flipping it to the RHP dominated BP. Maybe better to just let Gio go through his normal routine.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#4

Posted: October 16, 2018, 5:35 AM Post
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PlayerHader said:
I thought CC might start Woody to get the RHP lineup starting for the Dodgers and then go to Gio to force them to decide to matchup early before flipping it to the RHP dominated BP. Maybe better to just let Gio go through his normal routine.

I thought that would make sense as well, but I think the plan is going to be Gio for a short start, then some combination of Woodruff, Burnes, and maybe one of Guerra or Peralta in the middle innings followed by Hader for the last 2-3 innings once the Dodgers have flipped their lineup over against the righties (assuming a Brewers lead or a tie game).


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#5

Posted: October 16, 2018, 5:58 AM Post
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Mostly a very small sample, but the current Brewers hitters have had some career success against Rich Hill...

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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#6

Posted: October 16, 2018, 6:02 AM Post
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Guessing:

Cain
Yelich
Braun
Aguilar
Perez
Moustakas
Pina
Arcia
Gonzalez

For someone who said wondering why not start with Woodruff, I'm guessing it makes more sense to start with the softer throwing guy, get guys used to seeing that, then bring the heat for the 2nd time through the order.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#7

Posted: October 16, 2018, 6:51 AM Post
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Counsel is the best manager the game has seen in years and it’s amazing watching the national media having no idea what he is doing yet having the urge to comment anyhow.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#8

Posted: October 16, 2018, 7:12 AM Post
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The post game on Fox was just brutal. They just had to criticize every move. First it was pitching Hader at all (Hello it was only a 4 run game) and 2nd it was not throwing him out there in the 9th (Thus preserving him for today or tomorrow). I get that what Counsell is doing is not conventional and the talking heads aren't used to it but you at least have to give him some credit. It is basically all hands on deck today.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#9

Posted: October 16, 2018, 7:12 AM Post
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Go Brewers! gotta win this game

Hope Gio pitch better than in game 1


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Online  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#10

Posted: October 16, 2018, 7:20 AM Post
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fondybrewfan said:
The post game on Fox was just brutal. They just had to criticize every move. First it was pitching Hader at all (Hello it was only a 4 run game) and 2nd it was not throwing him out there in the 9th (Thus preserving him for today or tomorrow). I get that what Counsell is doing is not conventional and the talking heads aren't used to it but you at least have to give him some credit. It is basically all hands on deck today.


I have some friends that were livid about Hader's use. I was too during game, but after, it made sense. Like Counsell is some kind of wizard. I don't get being upset that Hader didn't finish the game...we...won?

You would prefer him going out there to throw 35 pitches and be assured he can't play today and probably not tomorrow?

Jeffress gave up hits to two superstars and then got out of it with a donut on the board. That had to help him mentally. Hader threw 8 pitches. We won. Basically every pitcher on the staff is available today.

People are weird and need to calm down.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#11

Posted: October 16, 2018, 7:35 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
fondybrewfan said:
The post game on Fox was just brutal. They just had to criticize every move. First it was pitching Hader at all (Hello it was only a 4 run game) and 2nd it was not throwing him out there in the 9th (Thus preserving him for today or tomorrow). I get that what Counsell is doing is not conventional and the talking heads aren't used to it but you at least have to give him some credit. It is basically all hands on deck today.


I have some friends that were livid about Hader's use. I was too during game, but after, it made sense. Like Counsell is some kind of wizard. I don't get being upset that Hader didn't finish the game...we...won?

You would prefer him going out there to throw 35 pitches and be assured he can't play today and probably not tomorrow?

Jeffress gave up hits to two superstars and then got out of it with a donut on the board. That had to help him mentally. Hader threw 8 pitches. We won. Basically every pitcher on the staff is available today.

People are weird and need to calm down.


If I remember right, you were the opposite of calm when Hader came in, then Jeffress. Happy to see you're calling for calm, just really ironic and a bit funny. You're ok with the moves since they won, you would still be all over CC today if they lost. Can't have it both ways.

Don't mean to start a whole "thing" here, but at some point people need to realize CC is rolling with far more data than we have. They have a whole team of very smart people spending hundreds of ours figuring out a plan in how to use the pitching staff. Occasionally the plan will not work, as players still need to execute.

It worked in the regular season, it worked in the one game playoff, it worked vs the Rockies, and it's working in this series.


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Online  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#12

Posted: October 16, 2018, 7:43 AM Post
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fondybrewfan said:
The post game on Fox was just brutal. They just had to criticize every move. First it was pitching Hader at all (Hello it was only a 4 run game) and 2nd it was not throwing him out there in the 9th (Thus preserving him for today or tomorrow). I get that what Counsell is doing is not conventional and the talking heads aren't used to it but you at least have to give him some credit. It is basically all hands on deck today.


Except Jeffress.........hopefully.


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Online  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#13

Posted: October 16, 2018, 7:44 AM Post
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FVBrewerFan said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
fondybrewfan said:
The post game on Fox was just brutal. They just had to criticize every move. First it was pitching Hader at all (Hello it was only a 4 run game) and 2nd it was not throwing him out there in the 9th (Thus preserving him for today or tomorrow). I get that what Counsell is doing is not conventional and the talking heads aren't used to it but you at least have to give him some credit. It is basically all hands on deck today.


I have some friends that were livid about Hader's use. I was too during game, but after, it made sense. Like Counsell is some kind of wizard. I don't get being upset that Hader didn't finish the game...we...won?

You would prefer him going out there to throw 35 pitches and be assured he can't play today and probably not tomorrow?

Jeffress gave up hits to two superstars and then got out of it with a donut on the board. That had to help him mentally. Hader threw 8 pitches. We won. Basically every pitcher on the staff is available today.

People are weird and need to calm down.


If I remember right, you were the opposite of calm when Hader came in, then Jeffress. Happy to see you're calling for calm, just really ironic and a bit funny. You're ok with the moves since they won, you would still be all over CC today if they lost. Can't have it both ways.

Don't mean to start a whole "thing" here, but at some point people need to realize CC is rolling with far more data than we have. They have a whole team of very smart people spending hundreds of ours figuring out a plan in how to use the pitching staff. Occasionally the plan will not work, as players still need to execute.

It worked in the regular season, it worked in the one game playoff, it worked vs the Rockies, and it's working in this series.


I literally said that in my first sentence.

Also, I don't see how that is at all weird. Questioning a weird decision is normal, and Counsell got lucky that it worked. Sorry, but it was weird. But that fact is, it worked. So what is the sense is being mad about after the fact? That just seems like doubling down after you've been proven wrong, which is not something I'm going to do.

I think being ok with something that worked vs. being upset when it doesn't work is pretty standard human behavior.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#14

Posted: October 16, 2018, 8:06 AM Post
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Winning one of these next two games would be huge (stating the obvious). Rich Hill is the most vulnerable on paper.

I think Shaw should start at 2B, because the Dodgers bullpen might come in early and having Shaw lurking low in the order messes with their matchups


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#15

Posted: October 16, 2018, 8:10 AM Post
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SRB said:
Winning one of these next two games would be huge (stating the obvious). Rich Hill is the most vulnerable on paper.

I think Shaw should start at 2B, because the Dodgers bullpen might come in early and having Shaw lurking low in the order messes with their matchups


You know Perez will be making this start. [smile]


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Online  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#16

Posted: October 16, 2018, 8:16 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
I literally said that in my first sentence.

Also, I don't see how that is at all weird. Questioning a weird decision is normal, and Counsell got lucky that it worked. Sorry, but it was weird. But that fact is, it worked. So what is the sense is being mad about after the fact? That just seems like doubling down after you've been proven wrong, which is not something I'm going to do.

I think being ok with something that worked vs. being upset when it doesn't work is pretty standard human behavior.


I think we all know which posters you are talking about, that it is pretty much par for the course with them. And that's fine. Pride is a big deal, and admitting that you are wrong is a tough pill to swallow for some. I give you a lot of credit for coming here and admitting that you overreacted. It was obviously a big game, with a lot of big moments, and emotions run pretty deep in those situations.

The idea that Jeffress is going to be shut down or put in fewer high-leverage situations I think needs to be gone, though. That just isn't going to happen. They are going to continue rolling him out there, in the hope that he gets out of whatever perceived funk he's in and gets back to being dominant. Which is fine by me. Without an effective Jeremy Jeffress, you are basically cutting off the head of this team's biggest strength.

Was going to Hader and Jeffress with a 4-run lead the right call? Well, Hader was warming already with a two-run lead, and when Hader warms up, he comes in. That's the way it is with him. I don't fault Counsell for using him in that spot. Going to Jeffress in the 9th was nerve wracking, obviously, but if you can't insert your high-leverage late inning guy with a 4-run lead, and expect him to finish things off, then you have huge problems. That's why I think that was actually the perfect time to use Jeffress.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#17

Posted: October 16, 2018, 8:18 AM Post
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I feel really good about this game. I think the Brewers put up some crooked numbers tonight.

I guess I'll weigh in on Jeffress since it seems to be a large topic of discussion. I didn't agree with using him in the 9th last night. It worked and the Brewers will need him to be who he's been this year for their formula to work. When I watch him throw, I don't think he's throwing poorly. He's making pretty good pitches and he's got his normal velocity and movement. The Dodgers just have been pretty decent about dropping the head of their bats and squaring some pitches up when he's working low in the zone and working the count against him.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#18

Posted: October 16, 2018, 8:22 AM Post
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Would be pretty big to get this game. Will most likely get Kershaw, Ryu, Buehler in the last 3. We proved we can hit their big arms, but an essentially best of 3 series against those 3 is a tough road. Put a nail in the coffin tonight!


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#19

Posted: October 16, 2018, 8:25 AM Post
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Boomer5 said:
Counsel is the best manager the game has seen in years and it’s amazing watching the national media having no idea what he is doing yet having the urge to comment anyhow.


I agree that he's been the best and I've called him the Popovich of baseball on several occasions. It's totally valid to criticize him for going to JJ again last night though. That's not just dinosaur baseball dogma. He needed a break. Another possible issue is just the value of giving them different looks to keep them off balance. JJ has now faced Puig 3 times, Machado 2, Grandal 2, and Turner 2, and it's only been 3 games. I'm not too worried about Grandal and Puig, but Machado and Turner have done some serious damage. I know it's not all on the same day, but there has to be some kind of reliever corollary to limiting the number of times guys see your stuff in a series.

Lastly, a big part of Hader's success has been turning LHB's into pitcher-quality hitters all year. When you save him to the end, you don't force the other team to make a difficult decision about pinch-hitting early. He's very good against RHB's too, but nearly 200 OPS points better against LHB's. Why save him to the end and give up that advantage? Bringing him in any time in a high leverage situation with favorable match-ups has been a big part of the leverage advantage you get from him. It was a 1-0 lead with 5 out of the next 7 Dodgers (Pederson, Muncy, Bellinger, Puig, and Grandal) being worse against LHP's. I was really surprised he didn't bring him in there and I feel like he's trying to play 3-d chess when it's still a 2-d game.

It's baseball, anything can happen, and odds are defied all the time, but last night I don't think Counsell lived up to the incredibly lofty standards he's set for himself this year. And that's coming from someone who defended him all year long, even in the most critical IGT's, so don't lump me in with the haters. That was an extremely stubborn decision.


Last edited by coolhandluke121 on October 16, 2018, 8:39 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Online  Re: 2018-10-16 (NLCS Game #4): Brewers (González) at Dodgers (Hill) 8:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
#20

Posted: October 16, 2018, 8:29 AM Post
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The use of the pen last night couldn't have worked out better for as puzzling as those decisions seemed at the time IMO. I wanted Knebel to come back out, but now his light workload looks great. Same for Soria. Hader was barely used and has a day off on Thursday. Jeffress still gave us reason to worry, but we can hope getting the desired result helped his mind a little.

With the benefit of hindsight, it sure looks better having JJ throw 9th than taxing Hader for the same result. But I agree completely, that it was a valid criticism during the game. But I would argue that Hader was used in a high-leverage situation last night. He ensured the bases were empty for the meat of their order.

I think I am done projecting things. I suck at it, and Rich Hill is capable of throwing a gem, so I'm just going to pray that he gets rocked early on.


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