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2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 5-1 -- 2018 Season Comes to a Close]

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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 10:44 PM Post
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There is no reason to be optimistic at this moment. The Dodgers kicked our crotch on our field. That was emotionally 2011 Game 6. Unexciting and uninspired.

Yeah, there is talent on the roster, there is also Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburgh and hell, Cincinnati in our division. And yeah, we'd still have to beat the Dodgers.

There will be a lot of regression too. Can they get back? Yeah I guess it is possible. But highly, highly unlikely. The Cubs and Dodgers at a minimum are favorites.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 10:44 PM Post
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Ennder said:
You are simply wrong. A runner on 2nd with no outs vs a runner on 3rd with 1 out is a 4% increase in a chance to score a single run. The odds with a runner on 1st vs runner on 2nd are similar. So you have to be successful with the bunt over 90% of the time for it to be a valid strategy. It is extremely rare for this to be the case. Bunting in the current game of baseball is a huge mistake unless you have a pitcher up or an elite bunter up.


So Machado is an elite bunter then? Good to know. Musta been one of those "extremely rare" cases.

There are three things America will be known for 2000 years from now when they study this civilization: the Constitution, jazz music and baseball. They're the three most beautifully designed things this culture has ever produced. Gerald Early


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 10:45 PM Post
Posts: 9626
Haha the Dodgers booed Machado during their celebration.

That is why I thought it was so stupid from the start. He got the last laugh and I can’t help but chuckle. Worry about winning games not some douche just trying to get in everyone’s head.

Shows the Dodgers are a pathetic team though. Any normal team would sweep anything to do with the POS play under a carpet and ignore it.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 10:47 PM Post
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3and2Fastball said:
This was a wasted opportunity. An opportunity that comes along very rarely. There is reason to be optimistic about next year but next year is not guaranteed to even be a good season. They had one game at home to get a W and go to the World Series, and couldn't get it done. This one will hurt for the rest of my lifetime.


Good post. Every year there will be new challenges, relentless competition, etc, and we somehow navigated to get so close this year. And had our chance at home. And we score 1 run. And Jeffress struggles AGAIN. Ugghh. Even if we have a good team going forward, we could go years without making the playoffs and especially an NLCS clincher.

I didn't even want to win it all, just the NL pennant and the WS appearance. Which is sad to admit, but true. Sigh.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 10:49 PM Post
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Jeffress was salt in the wound and nothing more. After we started playing the "put a guy on 2nd then fart three times" game I knew where this was headed. Strategy didn't matter tonight. Talent won in the end.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 10:50 PM Post
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RoCoBrewfan said:
With strikeout rates being what they are in todays game, bunting is a waste, unless you're doing it with your pitcher. Putting a man on third with one out, to give ONE batter a chance to score a run with a grounder or flyball, just doesn't make sense. If I have a man on 2nd, give me 3 tries at a base hit, vs one try at a fly ball, and one try at a basehit. Strikeout rates are just too high in the current iteration of the game to count on sac flies and the like to make bunting a viable strategy.


Maybe if batters were proficient in situational hitting, strikeout rates would be lower? We get a guy on base, and Brewers hitters come up there trying to knock the ball into the seats. When they fail to do so, they whiff at pitchers six inches above the strike zone, or bouncing in the dirt (see Moustakas and Aguilar). Adjust the approach like Anthony Rizzo did against us in the one game playoff. Behind in the count, I think it was 1-2, with a runner on base, he choked up on the bat, sacrificing the home run in order to foul pitches off, and force the pitcher to throw him what he wanted. When was the last time a Brewer bat came up to the plate with that kind of approach? Rizzo ultimately fouled 8 or 9 pitches off, and while I don't recall what he did, he worked the count, and increased the pitcher's pitch count in doing so. If he's successful, his team scores. Even if he just makes contact, and doesn't reach safely, he moves a runner over, which is a hell of a lot more than a strikeout does. If nothing else, the pitcher on the mound is out of the game that much sooner.

We look at metrics, and say, "this doesn't make sense". Well, if batters attained a more team friendly approach at the plate, strikeout rates wouldn't be what they are. Aguilar whiffed four times tonight swinging at crap that a high school batter knows to lay off of.

There are three things America will be known for 2000 years from now when they study this civilization: the Constitution, jazz music and baseball. They're the three most beautifully designed things this culture has ever produced. Gerald Early


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 10:52 PM Post
Posts: 2874
Pugger said:
Bulldogboy said:
The 'stache said:
One game at home to get to the World Series for the first time since 1982. What does the offense do?

1 run scored. 7 hits. No walks. 14 strikeouts.

Pathetic. Sorry, just pathetic.

No walks. Wow. All the pressure on a rookie starter and they never even made him sweat.


That pitcher of theirs is gonna be a good one.

I hope there is a change in our hitting coach. The approach by a lot of our guys left a lot to be desired all season and it came home to roost big time tonight. [sad]

Lack of offensive discipline has been a problem for not only years, but decades. I don't know why switching hitting coaches would work now. Not that I think they shouldn't.

"You're not going to have him when you want him and you're going to run out of games. He can't pitch 90 games. It's just not going to work. If anyone thinks it's going to work, show me how."- Craig Counsell on Josh Hader.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 10:53 PM Post
Posts: 856
Johnathan Schoop pinch hit tonight with two men on down a run. Think about that folks. Why?


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 10:54 PM Post
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Location: Three Lakes, WI
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Jeffress was salt in the wound and nothing more. After we started playing the "put a guy on 2nd then fart three times" game I knew where this was headed. Strategy didn't matter tonight. Talent won in the end.


Chacin matches up talent-wise with Hill and maybe Ryu. Not Buehler or Kershaw. He was put in a tough situation tonight where he would have to pretty much be perfect. He wasn't, and a monkey wrench was thrown in the plan for tonight. You can have the best pen in the world, but you still have to start someone.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 10:55 PM Post
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Location: Flower Mound, TX
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Jeffress was salt in the wound and nothing more. After we started playing the "put a guy on 2nd then fart three times" game I knew where this was headed. Strategy didn't matter tonight. Talent won in the end.


Chacin matches up talent-wise with Hill and maybe Ryu. Not Buehler or Kershaw. He was put in a tough situation tonight where he would have to pretty much be perfect. He wasn't, and a monkey wrench was thrown in the plan for tonight. You can have the best pen in the world, but you still have to start someone.


Agreed.

There are three things America will be known for 2000 years from now when they study this civilization: the Constitution, jazz music and baseball. They're the three most beautifully designed things this culture has ever produced. Gerald Early


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 11:00 PM Post
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Bulldogboy said:
Johnathan Schoop pinch hit tonight with two men on down a run. Think about that folks. Why?


Well, because despite the disaster that trade was, he IS a good hitter and could have had a hit at any moment. But the reason he was picked was obvious. It was super early in the game, close, and you don't want to use your best option there.

But really, I'm beyond nitpicking in-game decisions. There is no shame in losing to that team, on paper we were badly overmatched. I am not upset with the performance; I am just depressed that I don't think this franchise will ever get it done. It is just too hard for a team like them to succeed. You have to basically get lucky and finish the job when the stars align, and that was this year.

Good night guys. I am not around much at all in the offseason. I need to get away from this now for a very long time.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 11:00 PM Post
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The 'stache said:

Maybe if batters were proficient in situational hitting, strikeout rates would be lower? We get a guy on base, and Brewers hitters come up there trying to knock the ball into the seats. When they fail to do so, they whiff at pitchers six inches above the strike zone, or bouncing in the dirt (see Moustakas and Aguilar). Adjust the approach like Anthony Rizzo did against us in the one game playoff. Behind in the count, I think it was 1-2, with a runner on base, he choked up on the bat, sacrificing the home run in order to foul pitches off, and force the pitcher to throw him what he wanted. When was the last time a Brewer bat came up to the plate with that kind of approach? Rizzo ultimately fouled 8 or 9 pitches off, and while I don't recall what he did, he worked the count, and increased the pitcher's pitch count in doing so. If he's successful, his team scores. Even if he just makes contact, and doesn't reach safely, he moves a runner over, which is a hell of a lot more than a strikeout does. If nothing else, the pitcher on the mound is out of the game that much sooner.

We look at metrics, and say, "this doesn't make sense". Well, if batters attained a more team friendly approach at the plate, strikeout rates wouldn't be what they are. Aguilar whiffed four times tonight swinging at crap that a high school batter knows to lay off of.



It's easy to say "if batters did x,y,z, they would be more successful", well of course. If Ryan Braun would just hit homers every time up, he'd be the MVP, and break Barry Bonds record.

Not choking up with two strikes, trying to elevate the ball, going for maximum exit velocity, this is not just stuff batters are deciding on their own, that is something all the data suggests maximizes potential for success. And yes, it increases strikeout rates quite a bit. Guys don't want to go up there and hit a weak grounder to 2nd base, they just don't. This is how they are being trained and taught to hit now. This is how baseball is being played now.

Guys like Rizzo, or Ben Zobrist, or a handful of players in the league might have a different approach, but by and large, guys are going up there, and swinging as hard as they can until they hit the ball fair, or they strike out. That is coached. This is the game. It's not entirely aesthetically pleasing to a lot of fans. This year saw more strikeouts in MLB than any other season. It's not just Brewer hitters. NL teams struck out on average, 1400 times. 8.6 K's per game, per team.

One can argue that this isn't the way baseball should be played, but it is how it is played. And it sucks when you're on the losing end of it. But guys just aren't going to go up there and give up at bats to move runners. That isn't even hardly part of the lexicon anymore. The paradigm has completely shifted.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 11:11 PM Post
Posts: 3788
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Jeffress was salt in the wound and nothing more. After we started playing the "put a guy on 2nd then fart three times" game I knew where this was headed. Strategy didn't matter tonight. Talent won in the end.


Chacin matches up talent-wise with Hill and maybe Ryu. Not Buehler or Kershaw. He was put in a tough situation tonight where he would have to pretty much be perfect. He wasn't, and a monkey wrench was thrown in the plan for tonight. You can have the best pen in the world, but you still have to start someone.


Freddy Peralta did match up talent-wise, and was red-hot. But he was, for all intents and purposes, shut down after September 1.

At the very least use him in more than Game 4. He was at least as effective as Hader,

The non-use of Peralta, to me, is the most inexcusable decision by Counsell, especially when it was clear JJ was gassed.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 11:13 PM Post
Posts: 1499
OldSchoolSnapper said:
How many NLCS losers do you remember 5, 10 years later? Who last it last year or the year before? Yeah, exactly. Ultimately they are a blip. Tonight was their chance to go down in lore and they blew it. Again.


Winning one WS is going to change everything? Some would say that one in the last 50 would be a blip or insignificant. It stings to lose this one, sure. We had a terrific season. Show a little grace, tip your hat to LA, and hope for better next season.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 20, 2018, 11:15 PM Post
Posts: 856
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Bulldogboy said:
Johnathan Schoop pinch hit tonight with two men on down a run. Think about that folks. Why?


Well, because despite the disaster that trade was, he IS a good hitter and could have had a hit at any moment. But the reason he was picked was obvious. It was super early in the game, close, and you don't want to use your best option there.

But really, I'm beyond nitpicking in-game decisions. There is no shame in losing to that team, on paper we were badly overmatched. I am not upset with the performance; I am just depressed that I don't think this franchise will ever get it done. It is just too hard for a team like them to succeed. You have to basically get lucky and finish the job when the stars align, and that was this year.

Good night guys. I am not around much at all in the offseason. I need to get away from this now for a very long time.

You could say the same about not using your best pitcher too. You cannot have next level urgency with your pitching and then be like this situation doesn't matter. Schoop get up there. This is why the Counsell doctrine rarely makes sense.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 21, 2018, 1:01 AM Post
Posts: 3788
RoCoBrewfan said:
The 'stache said:

Maybe if batters were proficient in situational hitting, strikeout rates would be lower? We get a guy on base, and Brewers hitters come up there trying to knock the ball into the seats. When they fail to do so, they whiff at pitchers six inches above the strike zone, or bouncing in the dirt (see Moustakas and Aguilar). Adjust the approach like Anthony Rizzo did against us in the one game playoff. Behind in the count, I think it was 1-2, with a runner on base, he choked up on the bat, sacrificing the home run in order to foul pitches off, and force the pitcher to throw him what he wanted. When was the last time a Brewer bat came up to the plate with that kind of approach? Rizzo ultimately fouled 8 or 9 pitches off, and while I don't recall what he did, he worked the count, and increased the pitcher's pitch count in doing so. If he's successful, his team scores. Even if he just makes contact, and doesn't reach safely, he moves a runner over, which is a hell of a lot more than a strikeout does. If nothing else, the pitcher on the mound is out of the game that much sooner.

We look at metrics, and say, "this doesn't make sense". Well, if batters attained a more team friendly approach at the plate, strikeout rates wouldn't be what they are. Aguilar whiffed four times tonight swinging at crap that a high school batter knows to lay off of.



It's easy to say "if batters did x,y,z, they would be more successful", well of course. If Ryan Braun would just hit homers every time up, he'd be the MVP, and break Barry Bonds record.

Not choking up with two strikes, trying to elevate the ball, going for maximum exit velocity, this is not just stuff batters are deciding on their own, that is something all the data suggests maximizes potential for success. And yes, it increases strikeout rates quite a bit. Guys don't want to go up there and hit a weak grounder to 2nd base, they just don't. This is how they are being trained and taught to hit now. This is how baseball is being played now.

Guys like Rizzo, or Ben Zobrist, or a handful of players in the league might have a different approach, but by and large, guys are going up there, and swinging as hard as they can until they hit the ball fair, or they strike out. That is coached. This is the game. It's not entirely aesthetically pleasing to a lot of fans. This year saw more strikeouts in MLB than any other season. It's not just Brewer hitters. NL teams struck out on average, 1400 times. 8.6 K's per game, per team.

One can argue that this isn't the way baseball should be played, but it is how it is played. And it sucks when you're on the losing end of it. But guys just aren't going to go up there and give up at bats to move runners. That isn't even hardly part of the lexicon anymore. The paradigm has completely shifted.


More like the metrics are useful most of the time, but the real genius is knowing when to discard them, and go with the more traditional approaches.

Build a team, play the metrics, but be willing to do the small ball stuff. Steal the bases. Make the bunts against the shifts.

Good lord, why not give Perez or Cain, or some of the faster players green light to steal?


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 5-1 -- 2018 Season Comes to a Close]
Posted: October 21, 2018, 1:36 AM Post
Posts: 174
Location: Washburn, WI
As unfortunate as the loss was tonight, it’s important to remember the success we had this season and build off of it for next year. Our guys got a good taste of playoff baseball this season and will be much better off in the future when we return to the playoffs. The core pieces to this Milwaukee team will be around for many more years. Our window is only opening.


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Online  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 21, 2018, 1:59 AM Post
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OldSchoolSnapper said:
he IS a good hitter and could have had a hit at any moment


He's a below average hitter in his career and was terrible this year.

But the reason he was picked was obvious. It was super early in the game, close, and you don't want to use your best option there.


This is not a good reason. This was a run scoring opportunity where a hit to the outfield would at minimum tie the game and if it's an extra base hit could potentially give us the lead. Waiting for later to use your best option is the exact thing that would get a manager lambasted if he had done it with a reliever. So Counsell used perhaps his worst option in a one run game and runners on 1st and 2nd to save his best options for later. Well, later came and he used Santana with nobody on in a 1 run game and he used Granderson with a runner on 1st in a 5-1 game. Use your best option to try to get even or ahead now because you don't know if you're going to have the chance to do the same later in the game and it turns out, we didn't have the chance later in the game.

Cards' fans wear jorts.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 21, 2018, 6:30 AM Post
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rickh150 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
How many NLCS losers do you remember 5, 10 years later? Who last it last year or the year before? Yeah, exactly. Ultimately they are a blip. Tonight was their chance to go down in lore and they blew it. Again.


Winning one WS is going to change everything? Some would say that one in the last 50 would be a blip or insignificant. It stings to lose this one, sure. We had a terrific season. Show a little grace, tip your hat to LA, and hope for better next season.


Yes. Winning one would change it for me, and a lot of other folks.


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Offline  Re: 2018-10-20 (NLCS Game #7): Dodgers (Buehler) at Brewers (Chacín) 7:09 PM CDT [TV Broadcast on FS1]
Posted: October 21, 2018, 7:28 AM Post
Posts: 1499
The 'stache said:
KeithStone53151 said:
Come on you guys. This whining is friggin pathetic. So easy to be a monday morning qb. It's been a fun season. Move on, be optimistic that we can improve


I've been optimistic that we could improve since I went to my first home game in 1979. At what point does the annual optimism just fall by the wayside? At some point, a franchise has to win. Instead, we've had decades of "wait until next year". I'm tired of people feeling the need to blow sunshine up my butt. We can spin all we want, but every year, we lose the last game of the season, and it's become incredibly deflating.


Just leave the bandwagon then and stop cryin about it.


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