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2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) [Brewers lose, 11-6 -- Rough outing for Peralta]

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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#41

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:13 PM Post
Posts: 19593
So it's a really silly, lazy argument IMO. There are actually things beneficial to a pitcher that a pitching coach can do that don't involve actually throwing a pitch. Coach doesn't "hit/throw/field" etc. tells us absolutely zero. You could apply this across the board to any coach/manager in every sport to hold them blameless. If you believe it, say what you really mean -- that you think coaches, managers, etc don't matter at all. We all understand that the players play the game.

There are things that Derek Johnson did for our pitchers -- things that we miss right now. Just because we only see the pitches thrown, doesn't mean those things aren't there. Our two best pitching prospects in years are massively failing. Not just a rough outing here or there, massively failing. It's not a one player problem, and it's absolutely fair to scrutinize the pitching coach particularly after a coaching change when these same young players performed well last season.


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#42

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:13 PM Post
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82brewcrew82 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Are the pitchers just young or are they also not very good? I was young once too and I probably also couldn't get MLB hitters out.

Only one way to know for sure and sending them to the minors or the bullpen ain't it.


But how do you determine it then? Say you stick with Freddy in the rotation, and he continues to get rocked in three out of every four starts, but then throws a gem in the 4th one. Is that enough? All these guys are young, and everyone expected bumps in the road. I don't think anyone expected the whole highway to be full of potholes, though.


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#43

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:13 PM Post
Posts: 3835
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
82brewcrew82 said:
The difference here is that Hook had a hand in the development of all these guys. Was he fine when they were minor league studs but now, all of a sudden, he is a detriment? Makes zero sense.


Oh I definitely put more of the blame on the players themselves. I guess its just rare that you see quite frankly a whole staff just get so bad seemingly all of a sudden. Like I said, I'm grasping at straws to figure out why. Perhaps there is no specific answer.

That's hyperbole. The young starters are struggling as they sometimes tend to do and a few marginal bullpen arms have been up and down but who has been that bad outside of that?

but it's not like every guy suddenly forgot every piece of advice he gave


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#44

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:15 PM Post
Posts: 3835
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
82brewcrew82 said:
OldSchoolSnapper said:
Are the pitchers just young or are they also not very good? I was young once too and I probably also couldn't get MLB hitters out.

Only one way to know for sure and sending them to the minors or the bullpen ain't it.


But how do you determine it then? Say you stick with Freddy in the rotation, and he continues to get rocked in three out of every four starts, but then throws a gem in the 4th one. Is that enough? All these guys are young, and everyone expected bumps in the road. I don't think anyone expected the whole highway to be full of potholes, though.

That's on you then if what is happening doesn't fit your expectations. None of these guys was going to be a bona fide ace. That was never their pedigree. So yeah, let them get beat up and live with it.

but it's not like every guy suddenly forgot every piece of advice he gave


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#45

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:16 PM Post
Posts: 19593
82brewcrew82 said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
82brewcrew82 said:
The difference here is that Hook had a hand in the development of all these guys. Was he fine when they were minor league studs but now, all of a sudden, he is a detriment? Makes zero sense.


Oh I definitely put more of the blame on the players themselves. I guess its just rare that you see quite frankly a whole staff just get so bad seemingly all of a sudden. Like I said, I'm grasping at straws to figure out why. Perhaps there is no specific answer.

That's hyperbole. The young starters are struggling as they sometimes tend to do and a few marginal bullpen arms have been up and down but who has been that bad outside of that?


Barnes and Williams have been completely wretched. Not up and down.


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#46

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:17 PM Post
Posts: 19593
So just let them get beat up and live with it, playoff spot be damned? And you don't even believe any of them are aces and that's still the best course of action?


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#47

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:19 PM Post
Posts: 3835
adambr2 said:
Barnes and Williams have been completely wretched. Not up and down.

That's not true of Barnes at all. Williams only has 4.1 innings.

but it's not like every guy suddenly forgot every piece of advice he gave


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#48

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:20 PM Post
Posts: 3835
adambr2 said:
So just let them get beat up and live with it, playoff spot be damned? And you don't even believe any of them are aces and that's still the best course of action?

Yes

but it's not like every guy suddenly forgot every piece of advice he gave


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#49

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:21 PM Post
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82brewcrew82 said:
adambr2 said:
Barnes and Williams have been completely wretched. Not up and down.

That's not true of Barnes at all. Williams only has 4.1 innings.


Barnes has gotten rocked with a couple horrid outings that have skewed his numbers, but has looked good at times, too. Story of his career.


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#50

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:21 PM Post
Posts: 3835
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
82brewcrew82 said:
adambr2 said:
Barnes and Williams have been completely wretched. Not up and down.

That's not true of Barnes at all. Williams only has 4.1 innings.


Barnes has gotten rocked with a couple horrid outings that have skewed his numbers, but has looked good at times, too. Story of his career.

Which would be the definition of up and down, no?

but it's not like every guy suddenly forgot every piece of advice he gave


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#51

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:23 PM Post
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82brewcrew82 said:
Which would be the definition of up and down, no?


Considering the leverage situations he's being used in, it's probably more down than up, but for the most part, yeah.


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#52

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:25 PM Post
Posts: 955
Location: Washburn, WI
Scary play there for Gray. Good thing he got his glove up in time to block it from hitting him in the head.


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#53

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:25 PM Post
Posts: 3835
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
82brewcrew82 said:
Which would be the definition of up and down, no?


Considering the leverage situations he's being used in, it's probably more down than up, but for the most part, yeah.

So if this is typical of his career, how can we blame the pitching coach? Does DJ now become a garbage pitching coach?

but it's not like every guy suddenly forgot every piece of advice he gave


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#54

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:32 PM Post
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82brewcrew82 said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
82brewcrew82 said:
Which would be the definition of up and down, no?


Considering the leverage situations he's being used in, it's probably more down than up, but for the most part, yeah.

So if this is typical of his career, how can we blame the pitching coach? Does DJ now become a garbage pitching coach?


Of course not. And regarding Hook, a lot of these young guys flourished under his teaching in the minors. I can't imagine he started following a different protocol once he was named the MLB pitching coach. I guess at the end of the day, you just got to chalk it up to "that's baseball".


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#55

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:32 PM Post
Posts: 3835
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Of course not. And regarding Hook, a lot of these young guys flourished under his teaching in the minors. I can't imagine he started following a different protocol once he was named the MLB pitching coach. I guess at the end of the day, you just got to chalk it up to "that's baseball".

Or our expectations for these guys were out of whack.

but it's not like every guy suddenly forgot every piece of advice he gave


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#56

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:34 PM Post
Posts: 3793
I'll admit I've been really down on this team in the last few weeks, however looking at the parity in the NL this season, I think they'll be in playoff contention all year. I trust they'll upgrade the pitching staff at the trade deadline (hopefully not sacrificing Hiura & Ray). Is this pitching staff frustrating? Of course, however just about every NL team has a glaring weakness at times...

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#57

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:35 PM Post
Posts: 955
Location: Washburn, WI
82brewcrew82 said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Of course not. And regarding Hook, a lot of these young guys flourished under his teaching in the minors. I can't imagine he started following a different protocol once he was named the MLB pitching coach. I guess at the end of the day, you just got to chalk it up to "that's baseball".

Or our expectations for these guys were out of whack.


Impossible! We have 4 aces with a 5th one in Nelson returning soon!


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#58

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:35 PM Post
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82brewcrew82 said:
adambr2 said:
So just let them get beat up and live with it, playoff spot be damned? And you don't even believe any of them are aces and that's still the best course of action?

Yes


I would say yes, tbh, because this isn't a playoff team without wild improvement. As I said early, I don't think this roster has the horses. I think the "We're .500 despite XYZ" is going to be the season-long mantra and we'll be left with a .500 team in September.


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#59

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:37 PM Post
Posts: 3835
3and2Fastball said:
I'll admit I've been really down on this team in the last few weeks, however looking at the parity in the NL this season, I think they'll be in playoff contention all year. I trust they'll upgrade the pitching staff at the trade deadline (hopefully not sacrificing Hiura & Ray). Is this pitching staff frustrating? Of course, however just about every NL team has a glaring weakness at times...

I agree. I actually think they are starting to figure out the pitching. The Anderson thing yesterday was an unfortunate bump in the road and threw some things off. The schedule is pretty ruff for another month or so but we will get our shot and the marlins and giants too.

but it's not like every guy suddenly forgot every piece of advice he gave


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Offline  Re: 2019-05-02: Rockies (Gray) at Brewers (Peralta) 12:10 PM CDT
#60

Posted: May 02, 2019, 12:44 PM Post
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Posts: 10037
82brewcrew82 said:
Joey Meyer Bombs said:
Of course not. And regarding Hook, a lot of these young guys flourished under his teaching in the minors. I can't imagine he started following a different protocol once he was named the MLB pitching coach. I guess at the end of the day, you just got to chalk it up to "that's baseball".

Or our expectations for these guys were out of whack.


I'll admit, I was very bullish on Woodruff and Burnes. I expected them to be solid low to mid-3 era types. Perhaps Woody can prove to be that this year, but I haven't seen anything from Burnes that says he can be that as a starter this year.

I did not and have not had super high expectations regarding Peralta. He has shown just enough in his short career to make me think he may just defy my expectations, though. Obviously he's been flat out bad. That game against the Reds looks like an aberration.

I figured the pen would be able to pull it together and be respectable. In reality, they've had moments where they approach that. But a lot of moments where they haven't, too.


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