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Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies

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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#81

Posted: December 06, 2006, 11:39 AM Post
Posts: 12342
thumperden,

I realize that but when that happens, the pitcher usually gets sent right back down. No, they had it lined up Hendrickson, Eveland, Jackson.

If anything Villanueva was the guy who got a start because he was available to pitch vs. the Reds.

Look it's not an exact science but I remember on blurb I read out of spring training last year where Damian Miller commented that the guy opening eyes was Villanueva. Take that for what its worth, but caution and the "seniority system" isn't always the way to go.


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#82

Posted: December 06, 2006, 11:43 AM Post
Posts: 359
I couldn't agree more JB. The injuries last year made a rotational nightmare, while giving the youngsters a chance. Only one, Villaneuva did well in that opportunity. I believe he did well because he had the strongest mindset coming in. He went in to challenge hitters and not try to nibble and be meek on the mound. The others did a lot of nibbling and also threw a lot of two strike fatties down the middle of the plate to double whammy their chances at failure.


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#83

Posted: December 06, 2006, 11:46 AM Post
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Count me in as a huge fan of CV. I'd rather not see him go back to AAA.

I'd also rather give him the 5th starter spot over Lieber

3TO Apostle


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#84

Posted: December 06, 2006, 11:47 AM Post
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John, I agree with you in theory, but not necessarily in practice (in this case). I do agree that Carlos V has proven that he should get a legitimate shot at the rotation, and I agree that rookie pitchers shouldn't be discounted simply because they're rookies.

However, if we don't get more depth, we will be counting on exactly the same rookie pitchers (other than Carlos) that disappointed us last year. They may be ready at some point this season, but I doubt that the extra month of AAA they got after getting shelled in the majors was enough to make them ready. The other "security blanket for when Sheets goes down" is Yo, who, as has been mentioned, is not yet 21 and hasn't been above A ball for too many innings.

I think they need to add one more major-league-caliber starter. If he is better than Vargas or Carlos V, then either Vargas becomes long man or Carlos starts at AAA. If he's not quite as good as those two, he becomes long man, and our insurance policy when one of the starters goes down.

I don't know if Lieber's the guy. He should be at least an average #4 or 5 starter, and Brett had a great statement that being average is seriously underrated. It would give us flexibilty in the rotation, and insurance for injuries. He also would be off the books when the big pay raises kick in for other key members of the team. At that time, the aforementioned minor league pitchers would be ready to step in. In other words, he would make a nice stopgap that could possibly be flipped later in the season if one of the minor leaguers makes him unnecessary or let go after the season.

Our outfield is obviously overly crowded, so Mench is at this point a spare part, and I'd rather see them get something for him than simply let him go (or have we already offered arby?). Turnbow was excellent at times, but when he got bad, he single-handidly lost the Brewers about eight games after the All-Star Break. If the Win Shares guys are right, we'd probably need to replace our CFers with Beltran to make up eight games. That said, I won't be sad to see him go.

Therefore, they're definitely two of the "chips" Melvin has to work with. If Lieber is the best return he can get, then I'm fine with that. I'll trust that if he finds better/younger/cheaper, he'll do it.

"The most successful (people) know that performance over the long haul is what counts. If you can seize the day, great. But never forget that there are days yet to come."

~Bill Walsh


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#85

Posted: December 06, 2006, 11:48 AM Post
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Yeah, they could always dump Vargas on some unsuspecting team and hand the 5th spot to Villanueva.


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#86

Posted: December 06, 2006, 11:52 AM Post
Posts: 359
Yes, it's true the Brewers need a veteran starting pitcher, but Lieber would not be near the top of my choices to be that veteran for all the reasons I've mentioned already. There just has to be something better out there, I hope.


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#87

Posted: December 06, 2006, 12:19 PM Post
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I'm not a big Lieber fan, but after researching his stats he might not be terrible. He's had an elevated HR rate but that was to be expected in that park he was in. His strand rate has also been terrible which usually suggests the bullpen let him down a lot.


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#88

Posted: December 06, 2006, 2:30 PM Post
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The latest Brewers.com article from McCalvy reports that a Brewer deal is in place contingent on the other team making a move, but Melvin flatly denies that it's with the Phillies yet again:

Melvin also continued to flat-out deny persisting rumors that he's working with Phillies GM Pat Gillick on a trade that would include Mench and Philadelphia right-hander Jon Lieber.

"The only thing we've talked about with Pat is the possibility they might want to purchase our Rule 5 guy," he said.


milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com...p&c_id=mil


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#89

Posted: December 06, 2006, 2:45 PM Post
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Quote:
Melvin also continued to flat-out deny persisting rumors that he's working with Phillies GM Pat Gillick on a trade that would include Mench and Philadelphia right-hander Jon Lieber.

"The only thing we've talked about with Pat is the possibility they might want to purchase our Rule 5 guy," he said.


Which could be Canadian for: "We've been working with the Assistant GM on the Mench/Lieber deal."


If it isn't Philly, I would expect it to be some combination of us sending outfielders for pitching to LA or Baltimore. How likely is it that it would be with a team that hasn't been mentioned in any of the recent rumors? IIRC, all DM's moves have had some premonitory leaks to the press; it's been the amount and combination of players that has been surprising.

I still think we'd be overpaying with Mench and Turnbow for Lieber, including the salary considerations. Cleveland just payed $4M to roll the dice on Borowski; TBow doesn't look so terrible at ~$3M.

Edit: courtesy of snyttri from the "Mench to Bal - DEAD" thread

Quote:
The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel believes the Brewers have a deal in place that would send Kevin Mench to Baltimore for Rodrigo Lopez in the event the Orioles fail to sign Luis Gonzalez.
Mench for Lopez is an old rumor, of course, but it sounds as if both teams have revisited it. That would seem to mean that talks between the Phillies and Brewers regarding Jon Lieber have fallen through.

www.rotoworld.com/content...?sport=MLB



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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#90

Posted: December 06, 2006, 2:48 PM Post
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I dont recall any leaks on the Lee trade to be honest.


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#91

Posted: December 06, 2006, 2:53 PM Post
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Good point; I guess I was thinking more about the offseason moves, like Overbay, Sexson, etc. There always seemed at least a mention of something similar to what eventually went down, but that could just be speculative media saturation on the internet, too.

And if it went down w/ Mench for Lopez, it would certainly be a well-established rumor.


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#92

Posted: December 06, 2006, 3:11 PM Post
Posts: 615
If the Philles are not the team Milwaukee has a trade in place, pending a move by that other team, I'm curious about what team it could be.
I don't think it's Baltimore. What's holding up that deal is Gonzalez, if the rumor is true. I doubt if it's LA, since the only deals involving the Dodgers is trading pitching for an outfielder, which you would think would be what the Brewers and Dodgers would be talking about directly. The Dodgers already have pitching to trade and the Brewers of course have outfielders. Melvin mentioned trying to get in touch with the Giants about Jenkins and being put off while they talk to Bonds, so it doesn't sound like something is in place there. It's not Tampa as Melvin mentioned asking if Crawford was available, which he wasn't. So who could the mystery team be?


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#93

Posted: December 06, 2006, 3:45 PM Post
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The latest Brewers.com article from McCalvy reports that a Brewer deal is in place contingent on the other team making a move, but Melvin flatly denies that it's with the Phillies yet again

I choose to live in my fantasy world and assume that it's LA for Penny if they sign Schmidt.


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#94

Posted: December 06, 2006, 3:57 PM Post
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So there is a deal in place that we have no idea about? (Or that's what it sounds like?)


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#95

Posted: December 06, 2006, 4:12 PM Post
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Mench for Lopez if the O's do not sign Luis Gonzales.


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#96

Posted: December 06, 2006, 4:16 PM Post
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I hope that's not the deal. Keepin the fingers crossed


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#97

Posted: December 06, 2006, 4:34 PM Post
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Freddy Garcia-S-White Sox Dec. 6 - 10:30 pm et


ESPN's Jayson Stark says the Phillies have acquired Freddy Garcia from the White Sox for Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd.

Is there now a go ahead to do the deal?

by the way it was on rotoworld


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#98

Posted: December 06, 2006, 4:40 PM Post
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Rotoworld

With Freddy Garcia on his way to Philadelphia, Jon Lieber may yet go to Milwaukee, although Kevin Mench is unlikely to be part of the new deal.


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
#99

Posted: December 06, 2006, 4:41 PM Post
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Rotoworlds further thoughts:

The Phillies have reportedly lost interest in Kevin Mench after they weren't forced to include Aaron Rowand in the deal for Garcia. Instead, Lieber could be traded for a package that includes Derrick Turnbow.


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Offline  Mench,Turnbow for Lieber Pending on Phillies
Posted: December 06, 2006, 4:43 PM Post
Posts: 9
With the Phillies maybe getting Garcia without having to include Rowand....would brewers have any interest in him and/or Leiber in a package?? What would the Phillies want from the Brewers for either player now that Mench talks have diminished?


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