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Who can bring something to help in 2017 and 2018 without affecting future?

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Online  Who can bring something to help in 2017 and 2018 without affecting future?
#1

Posted: April 29, 2017, 8:07 AM Post
Posts: 10271
Aguilar? Is there enough there for a team needing offense to surrender a reliable LH bullpen arm for him maybe if you throw in a low level prospect?

Pina or Bandy? If Susac gets going in AAA, do you dangle one of the hot hitting catchers to bolster a bullpen needing help?

Santana or Broxton? Assuming Brinson is an upgrade, do you move one of these two for help in pen or rotation depth plus a low level prospect?

Nelson or Peralta? Their value is hard to gauge but making room for a Hader, Woodruff or another young arm could give this current team a boost by midseason. I'll call it the "Eldred effect" that nearly got the Brewers a division title in 92.


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#2

Posted: April 29, 2017, 9:11 AM Post
Posts: 8598
Aguilar is worth nothing. If he were DFA'ed today, he'd have a good chance of clearing waivers.

Pina or Bandy, maybe. If nothing else I would expect we could get back more than what we gave up for them, even now. But I don't know if we should. We have a pretty good thing going on with them, and no one is going to blow us away for either of them and make it worth breaking our catching tandem up. I'd rather consider Susac a trade piece if he gets it going.

Don't know about Santana or Broxton. Santana I would guess is worth more than Broxton because of his previous top 100 prospect status and still young age, but neither has really done much this year to make it worth trading them. We'd probably be selling low on both.

Nelson or Peralta, I don't see much there either. Both have non-tender candidate numbers going right now.

Bullpen help isn't cheap. I don't really know what is out there, but not many teams are even looking to sell right now. If we're going to get bullpen help it's probably going to have to come internally. We aren't going to just reverse course and start selling off assets for bullpen arms if we are flirting with .500 near the deadline.


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#3

Posted: April 29, 2017, 12:31 PM Post
Posts: 376
adambr2 said:
Aguilar is worth nothing. If he were DFA'ed today, he'd have a good chance of clearing waivers.

Bullpen help isn't cheap. I don't really know what is out there, but not many teams are even looking to sell right now. If we're going to get bullpen help it's probably going to have to come internally. We aren't going to just reverse course and start selling off assets for bullpen arms if we are flirting with .500 near the deadline.


I agree with this 100%. Bullpen help is not cheap. That's why the price was so high for Thornburg, Smith, and to an extent Jeffress.

Sadly, IMHO the bullpen help will need to come from within. Maybe Hader(ala Andrew Miller), maybe Woodruff, maybe Jorge Lopez, maybe Kodi Meideros, maybe Luis Ortiz, etc.


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#4

Posted: April 29, 2017, 1:43 PM Post
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I think Barnes and Knebel are the best bets to get traded with out wrecking the future at the moment. Sure, the pen is starting to look like a weak spot and these are the only two that haven't been horrible (outside of yesterday), but they are also high value, and as they are proving by essentially replacing Jeffress and Thornburg, not as hard to replace as some of you guys think.


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#5

Posted: April 29, 2017, 2:25 PM Post
Posts: 8598
pogokat said:
I think Branes and Knebel are the best bets to get traded with out wrecking the future at the moment. Sure, the pen is starting to look like a weak spot and these are the only two that haven't been horrible (outside of yesterday), but they are also high value, and as they are proving by essentially replacing jeffress and thornburg, not as hard to replace as some of you guys think.


Seemed to me though that the point of this thread was help for the bullpen.

Don't see how getting rid of them will help that. Sure, if we're in fire sale mode, anything goes if the offer is right, but it's hard to see a scenario even if we're selling where trading away our top 2, and highly controllable bullpen arms will help.


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#6

Posted: April 29, 2017, 9:34 PM Post
Posts: 2621
pogokat said:
I think Barnes and Knebel are the best bets to get traded with out wrecking the future at the moment.


I would agree with that. Thornburg alone brought back Shaw & Dubon

The logjam at OF with Santana, Brinson, Phillips, Cordell, Broxton, Braun could bring something back

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


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#7

Posted: April 30, 2017, 8:50 PM Post
Posts: 3422
Our answers for the Bullpen are the SPs being turned in to Bullpen and calling up the trio of Hader, Woodruff, and Lopez. We have the 7years of team control at this point. Super 2 status can be damned, as the trio show any better signs of producing than the likes of Nelson, Peralta, Davies, you put them on track for an extension. If they don't produce better than the trio, you tried Super 2 isn't a matter since they aren't worth much. How many more games do we need to lose when scoring 6+ runs?


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#8

Posted: April 30, 2017, 9:59 PM Post
Posts: 2326
Right now it sure seems like we've traded most of our tradeable assets..... Sure, we have valuable young assets, but trading them to help the Brewers now goes against the rebuilding process. I get the notion of asking because I love player moves -- especially trades -- as much as anybody. But a very important part of the rebuilding process is letting the new/young assets develop as they need to, and, especially given all the vets who've been traded, I think we're squarely in that "development" phase which lacks the "sexy" stuff of big player moves and, really, simply takes time -- an unpredictable amount of time.

We have a 13-13 team with most folks not named Thames or playing catcher hardly playing stellar ball. Realistically, it's still quite early in the year, and unless/until the right chance to acquire more "controllable young talent" is presented, it seems to me it's way too premature to starting figuring who the next trade candidates are. I'd think by the time it's July, potential moves on the trade market would be much more crystallized, but also at most would be for the Garza & Feliz types.

It's in part due to that game of continuous/endless trade candidates that KC & PIT annually in the dumps for 20 straight years or so.


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#9

Posted: May 01, 2017, 12:03 PM Post
Posts: 118
In terms of value and what they could bring back in a trade, here are my top 5 older players that we really need to be rooting for to put up big numbers the first 3-4 months here:

Braun - this is obviously a no-brainer, and we obviously have the no-trade clause and 10/5 rights in play here. Worse case scenario is we hold onto him and he still will probably be a very good offensive player for a few more years. Would be nice to get some prospect value from either LA or SF this July though.

Guerra - I know there has been healthy debate over what his value would be at his age and lack of history. His injury right now isn't helping at all, but if he can come back and pitch like '16 Guerra - I'd have to think some teams will put a pretty high value on him come July. Whether that value is enough for DS & Co. remains to be seen. If not, you can still build this rotation around him and just hope he doesn't completely fall off.

Feliz - we really need this guy to pitch well and shut the door in the 9th inning from here on out. We know how valuable shut-down relievers are at the deadline, and it would be really nice to turn Feliz into a couple of high end prospects come July. Needs to pitch much better though than he has the past couple of weeks here. Hopefully yesterday's performance get's him on the right track.

Knebel - I'm not necessarily advocating that we trade him in July, as he's still relatively young and under control for a few years - so probably worth hanging onto him for awhile. But, if a team offered you a similar deal to what we got for Will Smith, I think we'd be stupid not to take it, right?

Villar - another guy that I don't think we'll move yet, but if he got really hot here for a couple of months and started to play like he did most of last year, I'd have to think there would be some really good trade value here. As long as teams overlook his stupid baserunning miscues and sometimes shoddy defense.

With all of this said, if all five of these guys play really well the next three months here, I'd have to think that we'd be right smack dab in the middle of a WC race - and then that would really make things difficult for DS. Do you continue on with the rebuild plan and trade away your more veteran assets, or hold tight with them and maybe you deal a few of them in the off season?


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#10

Posted: May 01, 2017, 9:27 PM Post
Posts: 5420
Location: Kenosha, WI
So basically you want to trade garbage for something that is not garbage? You can't try to compete this year without sacrificing *potential* future value. Not sure why Villar/Braun/Knebel are really being mentioned. Losing those guys would surely hurt this years team which wasn't the point of the thread. I guess you could argue a guy like Brinson/Hader could replace the production, but that is a big ask. Not to mention trading those guys for win now material instead of prospects hypothetically hurts the future.

So in simple terms what you are asking is not possible.


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#11

Posted: May 02, 2017, 7:08 AM Post
Posts: 75
A series of solutions, in answer to the thread's question:

UPGRADE #1: Replace Peralta with Guerra. Move Peralta to the pen, where he can be groomed as closer if Feliz continues to blow leads and give up dingers.

UPGRADE #2: Send Nelson to AAA, replace him in the rotation with Lopez.

UPGRADE #3: Release Mariñez and Hughes (with his 1.8 WHIP), replace them with Suter/Wang and Espino who stay stretched out and ready for a spot start.

UPGRADE #4: DFA Franklin, replace him with Reed or Cordell.

As soon as possible (by the trade deadline at the latest):

UPGRADE #5: Trade (or if necessary DFA) Garza, replace him with Woodruff.

And if Davies doesn't get it together (which I think he will), send him to AAA and replace him with Hader.

Short term the rotation looks like this:
Guerra
Davies
Anderson
Garza
Lopez

By late July it's this:
Guerra
Davies (or Hader)
Anderson
Lopez
Woodruff
And Peralta can be your closer


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Online  Re: Who can bring something to help in 2017 and 2018 without affecting future?
#12

Posted: May 02, 2017, 7:16 AM Post
Posts: 8598
SandyTolan said:
A series of solutions, in answer to the thread's question:

UPGRADE #1: Replace Peralta with Guerra. Move Peralta to the pen, where he can be groomed as closer if Feliz continues to blow leads and give up dingers.

UPGRADE #2: Send Nelson to AAA, replace him in the rotation with Lopez.

UPGRADE #3: Release Mariñez and Hughes (with his 1.8 WHIP), replace them with Suter/Wang and Espino who stay stretched out and ready for a spot start.

UPGRADE #4: DFA Franklin, replace him with Reed or Cordell.

As soon as possible (by the trade deadline at the latest):

UPGRADE #5: Trade (or if necessary DFA) Garza, replace him with Woodruff.

And if Davies doesn't get it together (which I think he will), send him to AAA and replace him with Hader.

Short term the rotation looks like this:
Guerra
Davies
Anderson
Garza
Lopez

By late July it's this:
Guerra
Davies (or Hader)
Anderson
Lopez
Woodruff
And Peralta can be your closer


I would rather DFA Aguilar than Franklin. Neither can hit, but at least Franklin is versatile.

Also only been 2 starts but there should be no hurry to DFA Garza as long as he's pitching well.


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#13

Posted: May 02, 2017, 7:25 AM Post
Posts: 75
[quote="adambr2"there should be no hurry to DFA Garza as long as he's pitching well.[/quote]

Agreed - just saying they should trade him by the deadline if they can; if not (meaning he wouldn't be pitching well enough to fetch anytyhing), then release him


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#14

Posted: May 02, 2017, 7:51 AM Post
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Posts: 4662
adambr2 said:
SandyTolan said:
A series of solutions, in answer to the thread's question:

UPGRADE #1: Replace Peralta with Guerra. Move Peralta to the pen, where he can be groomed as closer if Feliz continues to blow leads and give up dingers.

UPGRADE #2: Send Nelson to AAA, replace him in the rotation with Lopez.

UPGRADE #3: Release Mariñez and Hughes (with his 1.8 WHIP), replace them with Suter/Wang and Espino who stay stretched out and ready for a spot start.

UPGRADE #4: DFA Franklin, replace him with Reed or Cordell.

As soon as possible (by the trade deadline at the latest):

UPGRADE #5: Trade (or if necessary DFA) Garza, replace him with Woodruff.

And if Davies doesn't get it together (which I think he will), send him to AAA and replace him with Hader.

Short term the rotation looks like this:
Guerra
Davies
Anderson
Garza
Lopez

By late July it's this:
Guerra
Davies (or Hader)
Anderson
Lopez
Woodruff
And Peralta can be your closer


I would rather DFA Aguilar than Franklin. Neither can hit, but at least Franklin is versatile.

Also only been 2 starts but there should be no hurry to DFA Garza as long as he's pitching well.


I am with just about everything but exactly what Adam pointed out. Franklin is good to have on this team right now because he can play all over. There just isn't a spot of Aguilar though. His time is up.


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#15

Posted: May 02, 2017, 10:06 AM Post
Posts: 75
>>>I would rather DFA Aguilar than Franklin. Neither can hit, but at least Franklin is versatile.<<<

Only thing is, I think Aguilar CAN hit, but that he's just in a terrible slump. He did hit 30HR in AAA last year, had an astonishing spring, and started the year 7 for 10. Yes, he's had but one hit since, but I'd like to see him stick for at least a few more starts. Franklin, it appears, really can't hit at all.

But if we were to get rid of them both - maybe Reed and Cooper take their place. As someone pointed out, all Cooper has done at every level is hit. And he has played a bit of corner OF and a tiny bit of 3B.


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#16

Posted: May 02, 2017, 10:18 AM Post
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Posts: 4662
SandyTolan said:
>>>I would rather DFA Aguilar than Franklin. Neither can hit, but at least Franklin is versatile.<<<

Only thing is, I think Aguilar CAN hit, but that he's just in a terrible slump. He did hit 30HR in AAA last year, had an astonishing spring, and started the year 7 for 10. Yes, he's had but one hit since, but I'd like to see him stick for at least a few more starts. Franklin, it appears, really can't hit at all.

But if we were to get rid of them both - maybe Reed and Cooper take their place. As someone pointed out, all Cooper has done at every level is hit. And he has played a bit of corner OF and a tiny bit of 3B.


Neither have had constant playing time so it's pretty hard to come up with a judgement on them but I will point out this. They are both relatively the same age, one plays all positions on the field and the other is a 1B only. And in the minors here is what each slashed over their careers:

Aguilar: .271/.348/.454/.802ops
Franklin: .280/.357/.448/.805ops

So i guess what I'm saying is I wouldn't count Franklin out. He is a fine 24th/25th player on the roster type of guy. Aguilar has no place on this team. He can go back to AAA. He plays one position that is taken by Thames. He needs to be gone and bring up someone or sign someone to come in and give a good at bat off the bench.


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#17

Posted: May 02, 2017, 8:23 PM Post
Posts: 5324
JohnBriggs12 said:
Aguilar? Is there enough there for a team needing offense to surrender a reliable LH bullpen arm for him maybe if you throw in a low level prospect?

Pina or Bandy? If Susac gets going in AAA, do you dangle one of the hot hitting catchers to bolster a bullpen needing help?

Santana or Broxton? Assuming Brinson is an upgrade, do you move one of these two for help in pen or rotation depth plus a low level prospect?

Nelson or Peralta? Their value is hard to gauge but making room for a Hader, Woodruff or another young arm could give this current team a boost by midseason. I'll call it the "Eldred effect" that nearly got the Brewers a division title in 92.


Sure, all those guys. Plus Perez or Shaw.

Problem is, Hader or Woodruff can get called up, but would need to be shut down before t he end of the season. No way would the Brewers let them take a huge jump in innings this year.

For bullpen help you have guys like Wang, Barbosa, and others in the minors. Plus, Stearns got guys during the season last year who stuck. He will continue to churn until he find guys who can help.


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#18

Posted: May 07, 2017, 4:07 AM Post
Posts: 32
wildcat2237 said:
adambr2 said:
Aguilar is worth nothing. If he were DFA'ed today, he'd have a good chance of clearing waivers.

Bullpen help isn't cheap. I don't really know what is out there, but not many teams are even looking to sell right now. If we're going to get bullpen help it's probably going to have to come internally. We aren't going to just reverse course and start selling off assets for bullpen arms if we are flirting with .500 near the deadline.


I agree with this 100%. Bullpen help is not cheap. That's why the price was so high for Thornburg, Smith, and to an extent Jeffress.

Sadly, IMHO the bullpen help will need to come from within. Maybe Hader(ala Andrew Miller), maybe Woodruff, maybe Jorge Lopez, maybe Kodi Meideros, maybe Luis Ortiz, etc.


Why sadly? Obviously it wouldn't be ideal if Woodruff ends up being a reliever, but the one thing the Brewers have been able to do really well the last few years is keep churning out good, hard throwing relievers...and then turning them around.

Given that we're still a couple years from being a realistic contender I wouldn't even be looking for any BP help. Relievers are the last piece of the puzzle and we aren't all that close to having the 1st two pieces filled yet. We have an idea who they'll be....but just an idea.

I do know I hope of all the players listed the Brewers don't do anything with Broxton. He may continue to struggle and end up doing nothing, but I doubt we'd have gotten anything for him after a hot stretch last year and he'd be worth next to nothing now. But we have seen first hand just how talented he is and how good he can be. I think as soon as he stops pressing and relaxes...he'll get in a grove, start drawing walks and then start driving the ball. It may not be logical, but he might be my favorite younger guy on the team right now...and he could allow us to trade one of the many talented young OF'ers in the future for a starter.


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#19

Posted: May 07, 2017, 4:26 AM Post
Posts: 32
SandyTolan said:
A series of solutions, in answer to the thread's question:

UPGRADE #1: Replace Peralta with Guerra. Move Peralta to the pen, where he can be groomed as closer if Feliz continues to blow leads and give up dingers.

UPGRADE #2: Send Nelson to AAA, replace him in the rotation with Lopez.

UPGRADE #3: Release Mariñez and Hughes (with his 1.8 WHIP), replace them with Suter/Wang and Espino who stay stretched out and ready for a spot start.

UPGRADE #4: DFA Franklin, replace him with Reed or Cordell.

As soon as possible (by the trade deadline at the latest):

UPGRADE #5: Trade (or if necessary DFA) Garza, replace him with Woodruff.

And if Davies doesn't get it together (which I think he will), send him to AAA and replace him with Hader.

Short term the rotation looks like this:
Guerra
Davies
Anderson
Garza
Lopez

By late July it's this:
Guerra
Davies (or Hader)
Anderson
Lopez
Woodruff
And Peralta can be your closer


I would be on board with most of these moves if this was May 2018, but not right now.

Peralta and Nelson are two guys who wouldn't be given the chances to prove themselves if they were on better teams, but the fact remains they're not and both of them still have a lot of upside. I'm not saying I'm confident either will become a #2 type starter, but I think both have the stuff to do so and as long as we're not a legitimate contender right now, why not give them a longer leash?
It's rare to find a guy like Peralta who can still throw in the mid to upper 90s deep into games(or at least through 100 pitches as he doesn't go deep often enough as it stands now.

#3-We'll be swapping relievers out all year. Since nobody you're citing is a real prospect...meh...I don't know if that would end up being a upgrade or not. Though Mariñez was pretty effective for us last year.

#4-I'd still like to see if Franklin(and for that matter Aguilar) can adjust to their roles and live up to the potential they both seem to have. I think Aguilar has 30 HR's in his bat...but that would obviously have to come with regular AB's which we can't give him. His swing is just so easy when he can get on top of it...this I guess is the downside to Thames hot start. But Reed and Cordell both fit the profile of guys I'd be fine with calling up now. Neither is a elite prospect, so the clock isn't as important(moreso for Cordell as I think he's much more of a prospect than Reed) as obviously guys like Brinson or Woodruff.

#5-As much as I'd like to see Woodruff, I'd rather wait and hope Garza can give us 8-10 good starts and bring back something by August. And more importantly, I'd like to wait on Woodruff. No reason to start his clock for another month either.


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Online  Re: Who can bring something to help in 2017 and 2018 without affecting future?
#20

Posted: May 07, 2017, 5:21 AM Post
Posts: 8598
OnTheBlack said:
wildcat2237 said:
adambr2 said:
Aguilar is worth nothing. If he were DFA'ed today, he'd have a good chance of clearing waivers.

Bullpen help isn't cheap. I don't really know what is out there, but not many teams are even looking to sell right now. If we're going to get bullpen help it's probably going to have to come internally. We aren't going to just reverse course and start selling off assets for bullpen arms if we are flirting with .500 near the deadline.


I agree with this 100%. Bullpen help is not cheap. That's why the price was so high for Thornburg, Smith, and to an extent Jeffress.

Sadly, IMHO the bullpen help will need to come from within. Maybe Hader(ala Andrew Miller), maybe Woodruff, maybe Jorge Lopez, maybe Kodi Meideros, maybe Luis Ortiz, etc.


Why sadly? Obviously it wouldn't be ideal if Woodruff ends up being a reliever, but the one thing the Brewers have been able to do really well the last few years is keep churning out good, hard throwing relievers...and then turning them around.

Given that we're still a couple years from being a realistic contender I wouldn't even be looking for any BP help. Relievers are the last piece of the puzzle and we aren't all that close to having the 1st two pieces filled yet. We have an idea who they'll be....but just an idea.

I do know I hope of all the players listed the Brewers don't do anything with Broxton. He may continue to struggle and end up doing nothing, but I doubt we'd have gotten anything for him after a hot stretch last year and he'd be worth next to nothing now. But we have seen first hand just how talented he is and how good he can be. I think as soon as he stops pressing and relaxes...he'll get in a grove, start drawing walks and then start driving the ball. It may not be logical, but he might be my favorite younger guy on the team right now...and he could allow us to trade one of the many talented young OF'ers in the future for a starter.


Nothing wrong with being high on Broxton. I am myself. He's still got an OPS over .700. In my opinion he's doing just fine. After late last summer and this spring, we probably expected too much from him, not saying he doesn't have room for big improvement.

But I agree, Broxton is one of those guys that doesn't make a lot of sense to trade unless you get blown away with a surprise offer. Upside seems to exceed trade value here.


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