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Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...

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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 10:01 AM Post
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Posts: 2372
Location: California
I would give Beane the option of choosing one from each of the lists below:

A. Starting Pitcher: Ortiz, Woodruff
B. Outfielder: Ray, Clark
and either
C. Outfielder: Cordell
OR
D. 2 of the Following: Medeiros, Orimoloye, Devin Williams, Supak, Reed

I think that package is enticing enough given Oakland will be receiving from MLB.com's prospect list:
A.: #4 or #8
B: #2 or #6
C: #16
D: #18, #24, #27, #28, #29


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 10:10 AM Post
Posts: 202
Beane's trading tendencies all relate to one thing. And that's saving money. You find a creative way to save Beane money. And you can have Gray. Hence the reason it will be hard to send an MLB player over as their clock has started and their just that closer to their big payday. My guess is a package of Ray, Isan Diaz and Erceg would easily get it done. Considering Gray's injury history and height.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 10:50 AM Post
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Posts: 588
Jopal78! said:
Two points to consider:

1.) When is the last time Billy Beane made a good trade?

He just gave away his two best relief pitchers, both of whom were under contract for multiple seasons, and received Trienen (a player he already traded away once before) and two A-ball prospects neither of whom were amongst the National's top tier. The last trade he clearly won would have been trading Ben Zobrist's expiring contract to KC for Sean Manaea back in 2015. Therefore, it is certainly possible Beane will accept a package of lesser players for Sonny Gray, because that's the kind of track record he has.

2.) If the Cubs gave up two prospects who collectively were ranked within the Top 100 in the game in order to acquire Quintana with three years of control. The "price" for Sonny Gray will be considerably less. He has less team control than Quintana, he is physically smaller than Quintana and has injury concerns. While it only takes on team to give up a king's ransom, I believe it would be possible for Milwaukee to acquire him without giving up a combination of: Brinson, Hader, Ortiz, Diaz, etc.


100% agree that Billy Beane rarely makes good trades and is vastly overrated as a GM, Moneyball be damned.

The package he just got for Doolittle/Madson was maybe an equal return for JUST Doolittle. If Bean was smart he would have got more in two separate trades.

I think Gray is almost sure to be traded this month. The Brewers need to be aggressive and not wait two weeks or they will lose out on him, IMO.

I think we match up best with the A's. It may take Brinson as the headliner, but maybe not.

Still wonder if Stearns can offer Corey Ray AND Monte Harrison instead of Brinson. The A's can afford to wait and take on less risk by acquiring two players as future CF options.


Last edited by A Swing and A Drive on July 17, 2017, 10:53 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 10:51 AM Post
Posts: 3526
MrTPlush said:
I know our pitching down in the minors has been terrible for years, but getting overly attached would be a total travesty. Trade Brinson instead of Woodruff/Ortiz? Yikes...I don't know about that. There is a pretty massive talent/value gap between those guys in my opinion. Preferring to trade a 5 tool OFer over a mid rotation guy is a bit concerning.

Now wanting to trade Erceg over Peralta because you want to keep the pitching is a little more understandable since their value would be more in line.


You feel that way. Pitchers like Woodruff and Ortiz could turn out better than Nelson, Anderson etc....including Gray. Brinson's numbers aren't better than Santana or Braun's when playing. You need 6 good pitchers vs 4 good OFs and you have 2 of those OFs already with a questionable 3rd in place. We have a boatload of OF prospects. Getting Gray for 2 seasons adding the team control of Nelson and Anderson both heading to their 3years of Arb. Garza, Davies, and Guerra are question marks to start the season in 2018. So yeah I'd prefer to have the next wave of SPs in place vs. no SPs for 2-3years and what makes up the rotation all hitting FA. Had Brinson shown a little something in his short stint, maybe I wouldn't want to trade him so bad, but he had 13ks 3hits, 3 bbs in 31PAs. I don't think he hits for two seasons to help the team. But I think Woodruff will help this team immediately and Ortiz would help immediately within 2years of now.

Woodruff's arsenal of Pitches with his velocity is the kind that can be an instant success. He's not a wild hard thrower. 2.6bb/9 is rather good for a career minors something Nelson never possessed a minors season until his promoted year.

Add Woodruff and Gray to the Rotation with Nelson/Anderson this can excel the team down the stretch....Brinson with Gray only not so much.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 11:03 AM Post
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Posts: 588
I agree that the Doolittle/Madson trade signifies that Beane is NOT deadset on getting MLB-ready players in return for Gray.

This makes me believe that a deal could get done without Brinson involved.

If Stearns can somehow acquire him WITHOUT Brinson or Hader, I'm fine with him trading 4-5 other prospects to get it done.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 11:50 AM Post
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Posts: 1585
A Swing and A Drive said:
I agree that the Doolittle/Madson trade signifies that Beane is NOT deadset on getting MLB-ready players in return for Gray.

This makes me believe that a deal could get done without Brinson involved.

If Stearns can somehow acquire him WITHOUT Brinson or Hader, I'm fine with him trading 4-5 other prospects to get it done.


You would gut our system for Sonny Gray? Seriously? I am all for trading prospects for true game-changing talent but Somny Gray does not profile as more than a three starter on a playoff team in my humble opinion.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 11:55 AM Post
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Posts: 899
MrTPlush said:
I know our pitching down in the minors has been terrible for years, but getting overly attached would be a total travesty. Trade Brinson instead of Woodruff/Ortiz? Yikes...I don't know about that. There is a pretty massive talent/value gap between those guys in my opinion. Preferring to trade a 5 tool OFer over a mid rotation guy is a bit concerning..


I think this is a really fair reality check. I'd include myself in the group of people that is overly sensitive to trying to keep anything that resembles a potential above average MLB starting pitcher. Brinson is a super prospect. He should be starting for somebody next season; hopefully he's out in CF for the Brewers. I would agree, if you really take a step back and look at the total player, the odds are much greater Brinson becomes an above average player vs even one of Woodruff or Ortiz becoming an above average starter.

I don't want to deal Brinson but could accept the cost for Gray. I'd prefer to strike up a lesser deal with some other players personally but I trust what this management is building. I could not accept both Brinson and Woodruff/Oritz/Hader. Honestly, for Gray if you're including Brinson you shouldn't need much else. Sure he was underwhelming in his first taste but he's in the top handful of OF prospects and is as close to proven as you can get without extended playing time in MLB.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 12:07 PM Post
Posts: 161
OK, here's a new proposal (feel free to rip it up):

Broxton
Davies
Ray
Diplan or Herrera

On the surface, this doesn't feel like enough for the A's. But, they would be getting a young CF in Broxton who has at least shown that he can be a capable (if not streaky) MLB regular, along with Davies who proved last year that he can have success as a starting pitcher in the big leagues (and might fair better in that more spacious Oakland Coliseum). Both of these guys are controllable for many years to come too. Ray gives them a Top 100 prospect back in the deal (I know he's not living up to it this year though) that many scouts are still very high on, and Diplan or Herrera gives them a high upside young arm.

Any chance this deal excites the A's, or would they laugh this off? Would we have to swap in an Ortiz for Diplan/Herrera to get a deal done in this type of a package for Gray?


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 12:46 PM Post
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Posts: 6153
People are mistaking "best pitcher who is definitely available" for an ace. He has less value than Quintana and shouldn't bee considered more than a 2/3.

Brinson, Hader should only be available if we're talking about Fulmer or Archer, and the Rays aren't selling. They're currently in the playoffs.


Last edited by Oldcity on July 17, 2017, 1:07 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 12:55 PM Post
Posts: 223
Location: Milwaukee
I initially wanted nothing to do with Quintana/Gray type players given we were going to have to part with Brinson + Hader/Woodruff but since it seems that Beane might be targeting low level/high upside guys then that would work much better for the Brewers if it's true and I'd be on board with that.

Ray, Ortiz, Harrison + flyer is something I'd be willing to look at if it keeps Brinson, Phillips, Hader, Woodruff, Burnes, Dubon in place. These are guys who can play critical roles over the next handful of years and 4 of them are MLB ready with Burnes flying through the system and Dubon in AAA (will need time there next year too). Didn't realize Burnes was consistently hitting 95 touching 97 so I'd keep him over Ortiz as we'll have to part with a top tier pitching prospect one way or the other. I'd prefer to keep Diaz but would be open to including Erceg depending on others involved. Other guys that can float in and out of the deal are Clark, Diplan, Ponce, Supak, Herrera.

Ray becomes their top OF prospect, Ortiz arguably their top pitching prospect (Puk) - both slot in Top 5 in system and were Top 100 coming in. I think Harrison as the 3rd prospect makes sense given their OF prospects are pathetic and he'd slot in as their 3rd best and potentially Top 18 in org. Just not sure if that's an overpay or not. Part of me thinks that, part of me doesn't.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 12:55 PM Post
Posts: 1626
Location: Madison, WI
Phillips, Ray, Ortiz. Too much? Logic being Phillips is essentially blocked. Ray is several levels below and years away but still has some shine in spite of his rough year. And you have to give up a P prospect. I think I'd rather give Ortiz than Hader, Woodruff or Burnes.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 1:08 PM Post
Posts: 161
I see that Bob Nightengale just threw out a package of Phillips, Woodruff and Burnes for Gray. Boy, I'd hate to part with both Woody and Burnes in the same deal for Gray. I could get behind giving up one of them, but both is a lot to part ways with. I think I'd rather go Phillips, Burnes, Dubon or Diaz. That would allow us to hold onto Brinson, Hader, Woodruff, Ray, Ortiz and one of Dubon/Diaz. I'd be good with that, but who knows if Oakland would be?


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 1:13 PM Post
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Posts: 6153
No thanks to that Nightengale proposal. If you're gong to give up those pitching prospects, find something better than a number 3 starter with durability issues.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 1:22 PM Post
Posts: 1626
Location: Madison, WI
I think I'd have a stance of only one P prospect or I'm walking. IMO, what makes us able to pull a trade off is that we have so many OF and middle IF prospects, so trade from the glut. We do not have an abundance of pitching, so can only give up one there. I think Phillips is an obvious choice due to the numbers game at the big league level and Santana doing so well. That's a reasonable starting point to me (one P and Phillips), then find a position player at the lower levels that works.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 1:35 PM Post
Posts: 251
Burnes will be a top 75 prospect by years end

Im fine with letting Phillips and Woodruff go.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 1:37 PM Post
Posts: 1346
Ortiz in last year at Double A since trade has really not really impressed me. I know he is young for level but a lot and has been solid but has failed to flash. Right now I'd take Peralta over Ortiz just because he has shined much more.

I guess I may be in minority but I'm not overally connected with Ortiz since he just came last year, there will always be weight & conditioning concerns, and he hasn't looked at good as I hoped so far. If parting with him helps get the deal done without guys like Brinson, Woody, Burns.... I'm fine with it.

Could even try to Package Ortiz & Cordell plus lower guys. Those two were big factors in sending both Lucroy AND Jeffress. Cordell is super blocked. Ortiz carries the prospect weight and name.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 1:43 PM Post
Posts: 49
Location: The Great White North
I just don't think Gray is worth 3 of our top 10-15 guys. He's too risky. I would have given up a bunch for Quintana, as well as guys like Fulmer, DeGrom, Archer, and Stroman. But not Gray. Is he a difference maker? Is he reliable? Those others I mentioned I believe are difference makers. Gray would be a nice piece and that's all. I'm offering 1 top ten guy and maybe a couple guys in the 20's of our system. No way I give up 3 top ten guys for Sonny Gray.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 1:55 PM Post
Posts: 4318
No way am I giving up our close to,the majors top'pitching prospects.

We gave outfield depth to trade and lower minors pitching prospects but I'm not giving up Woodrupff or Burnes.

If that means we don't get him then I'm fine with that.


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Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 1:59 PM Post
Posts: 202
If you want a controllable starter, then it makes no sense to trade anyone who may contribute in the next 2.5 years. So why would anyone consider the selling of Brinson, Hader, Woodruff, Phillips or even Ortiz. It's like trying to make a sandwich by selling your bread to buy peanut butter and jelly.


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Online  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 2:11 PM Post
Posts: 6238
Location: Kenosha, WI
Not a fan of giving up two pitchers at AA or higher and not letting Burnes go unless it for a legit ace. I am not super high on Burnes stuff, but the control has been making his results unreal. Can't risk having that prove out to be highly effective.

-Brandon Woodruff or Luis Ortiz
-Mauricio Dubon or Brett Phillips
-Clint Coulter or Tyrone Taylor
-lower end prospect

Some combination of the above is probably what I would expect to pay. If that's not enough shrug your shoulders and move on.

HighHeat I unfortunately don't agree with your logic there. Gray is a proven commodity while our pitching prospects are totally unproven. Wily Peralta was once a Top 50 pitching prospect and did nothing. Jorge Lopez was one and proceeded to fall of the face of the earth. Jimmy Nelson was one and took YEARs to show real promise and who knows how real it is. Depending on those guys in the coming years is likely to be a big fat fail. We need more proven guys to help lead the rotation. We can only try and depend on 1 MAYBE 2 unproven guys in any given year.


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