LambeauLeap1250 WSSP


  
Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 ... 36  Next  [ 714 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply

Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...

Author Message
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 2:14 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 588
Since the Brewers have only developed a few controllable starters in the past 20 years, what makes you so certain that Hader, Woodruff, Ortiz and Burnes are auotomatically going to become that?

I hold out alot of hope for Burnes but Hader could be a bullpen arm and the other two would probably be deemed a success with a Trevor Cahill-like career. Way too much risk involved with these prospects.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 2:49 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1585
A Swing and A Drive said:
Since the Brewers have only developed a few controllable starters in the past 20 years, what makes you so certain that Hader, Woodruff, Ortiz and Burnes are auotomatically going to become that?

I hold out alot of hope for Burnes but Hader could be a bullpen arm and the other two would probably be deemed a success with a Trevor Cahill-like career. Way too much risk involved with these prospects.


Isn't there equally a high amount of risk involved for someone with the injury history of Gray?

I also think it's a huge risk to trade prospects for someone like Gray when some of those same prospects could be used to acquire a better talent.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 3:35 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 588
Sure if there is a better cost controlled young talented SP available, that makes perfect sense.

Not sure that there is though.

Rays are in it. Not trading Archer this deadline.

Pirates said they are NOT trading Cole this deadline.

Blue Jays pretty much said that Stroman is not available.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 3:43 PM Post
Posts: 202
Everything and everyone has a price.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 3:58 PM Post
Posts: 223
Location: Milwaukee
How many Brewers employees directly involved in developing players have been with the organization the past 2yrs (since Stearns)? Past 5yrs? Past 10yrs? Past 20yrs? It's a blanket statement going back to the number of controlled starters the past 20yrs. How many times in the last 20yrs have the Brewers had a farm system like this? How many of those times did it take 2yrs to create it as well as what did you MLB team look like at those times?

Cahill was rushed and up by 21. That's one reason a lot of prospects don't live up to their hype. They never fully develop before coming up. Every prospect is different - build, stuff, feel for pitching, mental approach, intelligence, etc. When guys like Hader, Woodruff, Ortiz, Burnes have performed the way they have you don't bypass them because not every pitching prospect lives up to their hype.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 4:04 PM Post
Posts: 320
Location: New Berlin, WI
MrTPlush said:
Not a fan of giving up two pitchers at AA or higher and not letting Burnes go unless it for a legit ace. I am not super high on Burnes stuff, but the control has been making his results unreal. Can't risk having that prove out to be highly effective.

-Brandon Woodruff or Luis Ortiz
-Mauricio Dubon or Brett Phillips
-Clint Coulter or Tyrone Taylor
-lower end prospect

Some combination of the above is probably what I would expect to pay. If that's not enough shrug your shoulders and move on.

HighHeat I unfortunately don't agree with your logic there. Gray is a proven commodity while our pitching prospects are totally unproven. Wily Peralta was once a Top 50 pitching prospect and did nothing. Jorge Lopez was one and proceeded to fall of the face of the earth. Jimmy Nelson was one and took YEARs to show real promise and who knows how real it is. Depending on those guys in the coming years is likely to be a big fat fail. We need more proven guys to help lead the rotation. We can only try and depend on 1 MAYBE 2 unproven guys in any given year.



I sure hope we don't actually give all that up for Gray. It's amazing to me how much people on the board are willing to give up for Gray. He's an undersized rh starting pitcher with significant injury history that doesn't have elite velocity and is coming off a 5.5+ ERA season. He's also moving to a much more hitter friendly environment if we trade for him. And he'll have to start hitting for himself and running the bases with that injury history. Red flag after red flag after red flag. I wouldn't even consider giving up a top 6 or 7 prospect for him. Woodruff, Hader, Brinson, Burnes, Diaz, and Erceg are completely off the table for me. That alone probably means someone else beats us in the bidding, which is just fine and what I'm hoping for. I think trading for Gray would be a bad move, I don't think he will continue to be as effective going forward as he was during his first couple years in the majors. I get that Gray isn't really a 5 ERA pitcher. I also get that the market is light on starting pitching this deadline. That doesn't mean there's some sort of requirement to overpay. IF we do make a move for Gray, I hope it's centered around either Clark or Ray. I'd be willing to include Diplan or Peralta...an undersized RH pitcher...and an upside flier or an upper level depth type like Cordell. That's the best I'd do, that's the most I think he's worth in prospects.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 4:11 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 321
I would actually like to get in on the bidding process and stick to our guns with our price. Best case scenario we get Gray cheap or the Cubs get him and have to give up Schwarber or Happ.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 4:11 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 588
Hate to break it to you but MrTPlush's proposal for Gray would actually not be enough to land him.

Coulter and Taylor have little to no value.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 4:16 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 312
I might be in the minority, but I truly don't think it's going to take a Quintana like package to acquire Gray. Think his perceived value is a lot higher than what it really is.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 4:18 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1585
A Swing and A Drive said:
Sure if there is a better cost controlled young talented SP available, that makes perfect sense.

Not sure that there is though.

Rays are in it. Not trading Archer this deadline.

Pirates said they are NOT trading Cole this deadline.

Blue Jays pretty much said that Stroman is not available.


We don't know really know who is or isn't available but if the price is too much for someone like Gray we simply walk away. No one has said we need to make a move. That being said, if a guy like Stroman becomes available I am willing to throw the prospects mentioned earlier in a trade for him without thinking twice.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 4:31 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 6153
MilwaukeeBeers said:
I might be in the minority, but I truly don't think it's going to take a Quintana like package to acquire Gray. Think his perceived value is a lot higher than what it really is.

I agree, or at least it shouldn't take as much. If it does, hard pass.


Last edited by Oldcity on July 17, 2017, 4:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 4:31 PM Post
Posts: 3526
A Swing and A Drive said:
Since the Brewers have only developed a few controllable starters in the past 20 years, what makes you so certain that Hader, Woodruff, Ortiz and Burnes are auotomatically going to become that?

I hold out alot of hope for Burnes but Hader could be a bullpen arm and the other two would probably be deemed a success with a Trevor Cahill-like career. Way too much risk involved with these prospects.


Trevor Cahill had 5.7BWar in his first 62 games. and 5.5BWar the following 55games all told 11.2War. Who in the midst of his 3rd season was traded for a 3man package including Jarrod Parker who had 5.7War his first 2 seasons before injury ended his career.

Every bit of Sonny Gray fits that exact mode that Cahill provided...who disappeared in performance/injured at the same timeline that Gray is now in, that Woodruff/Hader/Ortiz are not in.

Hader and Ortiz weren't original draftees of the Brewers. Woodruff and Burnes are. Nelson is a product of Milwaukee's system. It's a different time-stamp in competitiveness the Brewers exist today in vs 20years ago. The draft, a cheap owner, GMs, coaches, scouts, and media, all that involved. 20years ago I think a select few of us even had an idea on the minors of Milwaukee's, much less the other ballclubs. Trading Brinson, Hader, and Woodruff you wouldn't know the loss it is to the organization as you do today. This applies to draft day, the media knowledge is at your fingertips, and so is the medical advances for these players since 20 years ago. The analytics are way more advanced to expose a good vs. a fail.

The franchise is this close...to producing a number of pitchers it has drafted and turn this 20years of futility on its head....or we over-react send that chance away taking in a guy who could be expiring as a quality starter...should he be a Cahill...and miss this chance at having Cahills produced on our side.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 4:34 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1329
Location: At the gettin' place
markedman5 said:
No way am I giving up our close to,the majors top'pitching prospects.

We gave outfield depth to trade and lower minors pitching prospects but I'm not giving up Woodrupff or Burnes.

If that means we don't get him then I'm fine with that.


Agree 100%. I'd trade Ortiz, but I wouldn't like it. Woodruff and Burnes are going nowhere.

I'm offering Ray, Diplan and Harrison. If that's not enough heck with it.

I hate the Cubs. I hope they die.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 4:52 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1585
I think that at the end of the day the difference in my thinking with Gray is that in no way do I think he's an ace or worth an ace-like return.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 5:09 PM Post
Posts: 922
If I offered Davies, Broxton, Villar, Ray and another minor piece...It's a done deal


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 5:12 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 6153
Why would Oakland take three guys approaching arbitration over players with 6 years of MLB control?


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 5:20 PM Post
Posts: 922
Oldcity said:
Why would Oakland take three guys approaching arbitration over players with 6 years of MLB control?


Because most are major leaguers, and there is something to be said for that. They could turn it around pretty quickly


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 5:28 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 589
Location: La Crosse
Brewcrewin07 said:
Oldcity said:
Why would Oakland take three guys approaching arbitration over players with 6 years of MLB control?


Because most are major leaguers, and there is something to be said for that. They could turn it around pretty quickly

That's not how Billy Beane rolls though. The A's don't retain players when they become free agents.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 5:48 PM Post
Posts: 499
Is Gray really a big upgrade? I would use our outfield surplus to find a couple of relievers.


 Top
 
Offline  Re: Sonny Gray- Let's GO FOR IT! Here's a plan...
Posted: July 17, 2017, 6:01 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 4646
Location: Phoenix, AZ
A Swing and A Drive said:
Sure if there is a better cost controlled young talented SP available, that makes perfect sense.

Not sure that there is though.

Rays are in it. Not trading Archer this deadline.

Pirates said they are NOT trading Cole this deadline.

Blue Jays pretty much said that Stroman is not available.


Pirates have said nothing about not trading Cole. Cole is available but at a very steep price.


 Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 ... 36  Next  [ 714 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply
  


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search this forum (phpBB search):
Jump to:  
Search entire board (Google search):
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Test