LambeauLeap1250 WSSP


  
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 9  Next  [ 168 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply

Ian Kinsler

Author Message
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#61

Posted: July 25, 2017, 8:58 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1048
Sounds like there's still some legit conversation here. I would still really like for a Kinsler/Wilson to happen.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#62

Posted: July 25, 2017, 9:05 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 8908
The brewers are looking to add another Reliever or starter?


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#63

Posted: July 25, 2017, 11:27 PM Post
Posts: 1407
Again, we have a fairly large hole at 2B and in the leadoff spot against lefty pitching... That is Kinsler's specialty, along with stellar defensive play. We could get a top of order guy that makes hard contact and strikes out much less than Villar. If this does happen, what happens with Villar?


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#64

Posted: July 25, 2017, 11:46 PM Post
User avatar
Global Moderator
Posts: 6324
As noted by a couple of people, I did not realize how productive Kinsler had been the last few years.

Baseball-reference.com has him at an average of about 5.9 WAR for his last three full years (2014-16). Fangraphs has him at an average of about 5.1 WAR during that same time frame. Either way, that's pretty good.

Even though he isn't having a great year in 2017, he's still has produced 2.1 bWAR/2.2 fWAR thus far. That's not too bad (not great - but not bad).

His BABIP is about 25 points lower than his career numbers, so there's some hope that he will rebound a bit (he's hitting .248 this year after hitting over .280 since coming to Detroit in 2014).

Fangraphs and Baseball Reference still rate his defense has excellent (in fact, Fangraphs puts him as the top defensive 2B in baseball this year - at least so far). He's also a good baserunner.

At 35, there's a lot to be wary about. Guys just get old - and you'd have to dig deeper and scout him to get a better feel for his performance. But if the team is giving up on Villar - and they aren't buying Sogard as a starter - he's not a bad option. Assuming Kinsler keeps up his stellar defensive play, his salary isn't too high (he makes about $4M more in 2017, and $12M for 2018). Even if he only hits .250-260, he could be a solid player for 2018 while Hiura, Dubon and Diaz continue to develop. He doesn't fit the mold of a versatile player - but such is life.

I'm not necessarily saying we trade for Kinsler. Just saying that some of my initial reaction was overblown. I saw a 35 year old guy hitting under .250. Seemed like an automatic 'no way' in my head. But looking deeper, there's some value in the guy that shouldn't be dismissed.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#65

Posted: July 25, 2017, 11:55 PM Post
User avatar
Global Moderator
Posts: 6324
Going to throw this one out there:

Milwaukee gets Kinsler, Wilson and Anibal Sanchez
Detroit gets Jonathan Villar (I say this because getting Kinsler essentially says we are giving up on Villar - so no point in hanging on to him). If not Villar, then a couple of low level prospects.

The key here is Milwaukee taking on Sanchez's contract. The guy is junk at this point. By taking on his salary (roughly $6M left in 2017, and a $5M buyout for 2018), we are essentially buying Wilson and Kinsler for $11M.

Of course, we are also taking Kinsler's and Wilson's salaries - that saves Detroit about $5M more in 2017 - plus any future salaries (or buyouts) of both players.

For Milwaukee, it adds a quality left handed reliever and a steady defensive 2B.

The Brewers would likely just cut Sanchez (or perhaps keep him and get rid of Peralta or someone like that). Either way, he's probably worthless.

Just an idea.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#66

Posted: July 26, 2017, 2:26 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 854
Why on Earth would the the Detroit Tigers do
this? To save $11M? Wishful thinking.

Youtube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC42UlEqaIRsK4SCoIMoajvQ/videos?disable_polymer=1
Twitter
https://twitter.com/brewcrewreview1
Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/Brew-Crew-Review-2053231341616034/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#67

Posted: July 26, 2017, 11:34 AM Post
Posts: 1798
A Swing and A Drive said:
Why on Earth would the the Detroit Tigers do
this? To save $11M? Wishful thinking.


Tigers want to dump salary & get younger while not losing ability to compete. Verlander & Kinsler are aging, production has dropped, and they eat a ton of salary. They are out of contention this season so sell off some old expensive assets to give you flexibility in the off season to work with.

I could see Villar going to Detroit & getting hot again like he was last year. He has that ability to be that player.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#68

Posted: July 26, 2017, 12:00 PM Post
Posts: 2616
reillymcshane said:
Going to throw this one out there:

Milwaukee gets Kinsler, Wilson and Anibal Sanchez
Detroit gets Jonathan Villar (I say this because getting Kinsler essentially says we are giving up on Villar - so no point in hanging on to him). If not Villar, then a couple of low level prospects.

The key here is Milwaukee taking on Sanchez's contract. The guy is junk at this point. By taking on his salary (roughly $6M left in 2017, and a $5M buyout for 2018), we are essentially buying Wilson and Kinsler for $11M.

Of course, we are also taking Kinsler's and Wilson's salaries - that saves Detroit about $5M more in 2017 - plus any future salaries (or buyouts) of both players.

For Milwaukee, it adds a quality left handed reliever and a steady defensive 2B.

The Brewers would likely just cut Sanchez (or perhaps keep him and get rid of Peralta or someone like that). Either way, he's probably worthless.

Just an idea.


No way does that get you Wilson. He is one of the top trade chips at the deadline. Sub 1 WHIP and 12+ K/9 is worth way more than mediocre salary relief and guy the Brewers dont want.

Further, while Kinsler has little value to us unless you think we are a playoff team, he does have some value to a contending team that desperately needs a 2B for the next two years. The Brewers dont really need a 2B with Dubon and Hiura on the way and Sogard being a decent fill in even with obvious regression.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#69

Posted: July 31, 2017, 10:58 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 492
I'm very glad this possible trade never happened.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#70

Posted: August 01, 2017, 6:19 AM Post
Posts: 446
502 to Right said:
I'm very glad this possible trade never happened.


Still can happen


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#71

Posted: August 01, 2017, 6:49 AM Post
User avatar
Posts: 8908
does sound like DS is still talking to teams


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#72

Posted: August 01, 2017, 12:50 PM Post
Posts: 1407
This still could happen.... straight up swap for Villar.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Online  Re: Ian Kinsler
#73

Posted: August 01, 2017, 1:16 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 1247
Location: Green Bay, WI
rickh150 said:
This still could happen.... straight up swap for Villar.


Assuming both players would clear revocable waivers, which is doubtful.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#74

Posted: August 01, 2017, 1:22 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 305
Why not just claim him if he gets to the Brewers? Detroit gets out of contract, Brewers get better at 2b without giving up a prospect. Everybody wins lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#75

Posted: August 01, 2017, 1:34 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 7443
Provided we're not giving up much, I see little downside to acquiring him. He's not blocking anyone this year or next unless you think Villar is actually last year's Villar and not the rest of his career Villar.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#76

Posted: August 01, 2017, 2:05 PM Post
Posts: 410
Location: Milwaukee
YoungGeezy1 said:
A Swing and A Drive said:
Why on Earth would the the Detroit Tigers do
this? To save $11M? Wishful thinking.


Tigers want to dump salary & get younger while not losing ability to compete. Verlander & Kinsler are aging, production has dropped, and they eat a ton of salary. They are out of contention this season so sell off some old expensive assets to give you flexibility in the off season to work with.

I could see Villar going to Detroit & getting hot again like he was last year. He has that ability to be that player.

I agree with you that it makes sense for Detroit to want to do that. But how does that scenario make sense on the Brewers end?

Lets say that next year Villar gets going again and produces something remotely similar to his 2016 (could even be 15-20pts less across the board) - he'll hit 16HR+ with 40SB+ and have 2yrs of control left. Wouldn't it put us in a much better position long-term to keep him and flip him after next year for a good return instead of trading him now for 2 months of Kinsler and an aging Verlander who's owed an absurd amount of money, has a no trade clause so probably won't get moved and eats a rotation spot when we have 3yrs of Nelson/Chase, 4yrs of Davies/Guerra, 6yrs of Hader/Woodruff + Ortiz/Burnes ready by the end of next year.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#77

Posted: August 01, 2017, 2:41 PM Post
User avatar
Posts: 8908
wonder if DS will work an Aug trade


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#78

Posted: August 01, 2017, 10:23 PM Post
Posts: 1407
Humans Need Water said:
YoungGeezy1 said:
A Swing and A Drive said:
Why on Earth would the the Detroit Tigers do
this? To save $11M? Wishful thinking.


Tigers want to dump salary & get younger while not losing ability to compete. Verlander & Kinsler are aging, production has dropped, and they eat a ton of salary. They are out of contention this season so sell off some old expensive assets to give you flexibility in the off season to work with.

I could see Villar going to Detroit & getting hot again like he was last year. He has that ability to be that player.

I agree with you that it makes sense for Detroit to want to do that. But how does that scenario make sense on the Brewers end?

Lets say that next year Villar gets going again and produces something remotely similar to his 2016 (could even be 15-20pts less across the board) - he'll hit 16HR+ with 40SB+ and have 2yrs of control left. Wouldn't it put us in a much better position long-term to keep him and flip him after next year for a good return instead of trading him now for 2 months of Kinsler and an aging Verlander who's owed an absurd amount of money, has a no trade clause so probably won't get moved and eats a rotation spot when we have 3yrs of Nelson/Chase, 4yrs of Davies/Guerra, 6yrs of Hader/Woodruff + Ortiz/Burnes ready by the end of next year.


Maybe Villar is pretty bad forever and Kinsler could help us get to the playoffs.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#79

Posted: August 02, 2017, 7:45 AM Post
Posts: 410
Location: Milwaukee
rickh150 said:
Humans Need Water said:
YoungGeezy1 said:
Tigers want to dump salary & get younger while not losing ability to compete. Verlander & Kinsler are aging, production has dropped, and they eat a ton of salary. They are out of contention this season so sell off some old expensive assets to give you flexibility in the off season to work with.

I could see Villar going to Detroit & getting hot again like he was last year. He has that ability to be that player.

I agree with you that it makes sense for Detroit to want to do that. But how does that scenario make sense on the Brewers end?

Lets say that next year Villar gets going again and produces something remotely similar to his 2016 (could even be 15-20pts less across the board) - he'll hit 16HR+ with 40SB+ and have 2yrs of control left. Wouldn't it put us in a much better position long-term to keep him and flip him after next year for a good return instead of trading him now for 2 months of Kinsler and an aging Verlander who's owed an absurd amount of money, has a no trade clause so probably won't get moved and eats a rotation spot when we have 3yrs of Nelson/Chase, 4yrs of Davies/Guerra, 6yrs of Hader/Woodruff + Ortiz/Burnes ready by the end of next year.


Maybe Villar is pretty bad forever and Kinsler could help us get to the playoffs.

Possibly (regarding Villar). Very doubtful (regarding Kinsler). Villar's 2015/2016 being improvements on his prior 2yrs, his current age and his ability can pretty easily allow someone to make the case he'll bounce back to being a productive starting middle IF moving forward. He also had to put in extra work getting used to 2b this year while also missing a lot of spring training with sporadic/limited playing time in the WBC.

You think Villar potentially could be pretty bad forever so why don't you think it's possible that Kinsler could continue to decline the rest of this season like he's done? Outside of June, Kinsler has slashed 237/317/664 this year. As pathetic as that is, it's an upgrade to Villar. But it still absolutely sucks. Giving up a 26yr old Villar with 3yrs of control left for 2 months of that most likely isn't going to put this team over the hump. I get people wanting Villar to have limited playing time the next 2 months and if Stearns wants to acquire Kinsler then fine, but trading Villar to do so is absurd and that's been my point.

And I think it's ridiculous that people loved Sogard all year but since he's struggled in his 6 starts, since missing 3wks with an injury, he's immediately become the mediocre journeyman he's always been. Whichever way the wind is blowing that day I guess...


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
#80

Posted: August 02, 2017, 8:24 AM Post
Posts: 1407
Kinsler's defense is better than about any 2B.... still. I can't find the defensive metrics used before, but it had him as tops this season. Kinsler walks at a decent rate. Kinsler doesn't strike out at a major rate, like the rest of our lineup. He is a true veteran, and we don't have many of those. Even when he is not hitting well, it beats Villar's putrid rates...... 178 avg leading off an inning. .242 OBP leading off inning.

Really, I guess I am done with Villar. We can't send him down without exposing him to other teams (out of options), yet it's time to leave. I'd like to see how Dejesus and Dubon would do here, or even stick Perez at 2B for more at bats. I couldn't' stand Villar last year because of his inexcusable baserunning (unforced errors taking extra base regardless of outs/situation) even though his stats were great. It ticks me off that guys are flying up and down from AAA to majors and back at warp speed, but good ol Villar plays fairly regular, leading off many a game.


 Top
 
Quote   Reply 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 9  Next  [ 168 posts ]  New Topic   Add Reply
  


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 3and2Fastball, Point Beer Is Best and 10 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search this forum (phpBB search):
Jump to:  
Search entire board (Google search):
Google
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Test