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Ian Kinsler

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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 07, 2017, 2:23 PM Post
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Posts: 135
wildcat2237 said:
Stearns worships versatility.

Scooter had no versatility.

Stearns was going to jettison Scooter one way or the other. Scooter was not a "Stearns guy."

My problem with the Scooter transaction is that Stearns just gave him away. I never thought Scooter had huge value, but I do think he was worth one or two lower level lottery tickets (think the Lind trade). With the Brewers not planning to compete there was no reason just to DFA Scooter.

To this point the Scooter transaction and Corey Ray pick look like Stearns sole black marks.


Neftali Feliz was a pretty big waste of $5 million as well. Knebel should have been handed the closer's role from the get-go. The fact that they just dumped Scooter puzzled me as well, especially when you look at the kind of junk middle infielders out there that teams regularly give up value for.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 07, 2017, 2:49 PM Post
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wildcat2237 said:
Stearns worships versatility.

Scooter had no versatility.

Stearns was going to jettison Scooter one way or the other. Scooter was not a "Stearns guy."

My problem with the Scooter transaction is that Stearns just gave him away. I never thought Scooter had huge value, but I do think he was worth one or two lower level lottery tickets (think the Lind trade). With the Brewers not planning to compete there was no reason just to DFA Scooter.


So let me get this straight...Stearns had no intention of keeping Scooter on the roster, and decided to just DFA him without even trying to trade him? Wouldn't the more likely scenario be that 29 other GMs viewed Scooter the same way - as a platoon, 2B-only player that was not worth giving up anything?


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 07, 2017, 3:38 PM Post
Posts: 277
Location: Milwaukee
Boomer5 said:
This wasn't hindsight by Briggs and me. This was a really bad decision and one that has cost the Brewers dearly. The argument was he couldn't be a run producer and could only play 2nd Base. So now to make up for a ridiculous move, the Brewers will have to trade a prospect and pick up a much larger contract for a guy who can only play 2nd base.

Is this serious? It's been how many months and you both still have no idea why Scooter isn't here anymore. Just mind boggling and even potentially mind bottling. Wasn't hindsight for the both of you? Yeah, because you both thought Scooter was either better than Villar or that Villar would be performing to this level this year. My goodness.

No, the argument wasn't, in part, that he couldn't be a run producer. He was gone because Arcia was given the reigns at SS, which shifted Villar to 2b. Villar's 2016 season at the age of 25, with 4yrs of cheap control left too while being a switch hitter and also being versatile defensively, absolutely destroyed anything Scooter's ever done to that point. Scooter was going to the bench immediately. On the bench, he was competing with Perez (literally plays every position, is a better hitter, better on the bases, younger and outperformed him the previous 2yrs) and Aguilar (lot of AAA success, power and smashed it in spring). Combine that with Thames being back in the states for the first time in 3yrs so if he stumbled you'd have Aguilar. (lefty/righty combo too). Kirk was the 4th OF because he could play all 3 spots well and was a lefty to boot.

Scooter is a 2b and a last resort between LF/RF/3b (hence a combined 20 games played there for the 4th worst team - which is the only reason he's playing there).

So yeah, when factoring in all that in March/April 2017 when the decision was made, it absolutely made all the sense in the world to move on from Scooter. And Stearns tried to trade him and zero GMs bit on him not even offering one garbage prospect. ZERO. And while the GMs knew he wasn't going to make the team, based on the aforementioned above, they knew he'd be claimed. Yet not one GM still stepped up to offer garbage to make sure Scooter didn't get DFA'd where they'd most likely not have a chance to claim him.

Sogard essentially took Kirk's role and has been very good overall for a couple months (Sogard/Perez have combined to play 2 full months at 2b putting up excellent numbers too). The reality of this is Scooter is playing out of his @ss this year so I'm sure you'll both be silent when he crashes back to reality moving forward.

Finally, provide evidence that Scooter would be replicating his exact numbers if he was still here (I look forward to your usage of his 2014-2016 stats as a full time player to indicate the trend of his 2017 performance).

If Perez is starting at 2b right now full time putting up his typical numbers then it would be better than having the 2015/2016 versions of Scooter. That said - where's the problem with that scenario since you both have thought highly of Scooter for years?


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 07, 2017, 4:14 PM Post
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I see a lot of results oriented thinking in here and that is not a good way to evaluate a trade. Feliz's velocity was up and he pitched well last season. There was a really solid thought process behind giving him a small one season deal. A move that didn't work isn't always a bad move. Feliz is nowhere near a black mark against Stearns. Not every move is going to work out.

Nothing Scooter has ever done in his career suggested something like what he did this season was coming, he even said it surprises him. This is just a random breakout that nobody can see coming. They had two players they liked more than Scooter so there just wasn't room for him. You can send him to AAA and eat his cash or release him, either are totally viable. I'm sure Scooter asked for the release if he was given any sort of choice in the matter. A poor defensive platoon 2B coming off of a basically replacement level season has no trade value at all so trading him was never really an option.

Corey Ray is just way too early to tell yet. He doesn't even have 600 PA in the minors yet and a lot of times college hitters are behind the age curve because the college game is played so differently than the majors.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 07, 2017, 6:36 PM Post
Posts: 2275
Results oriented is the best way to evaluate a trade/signing/draft pick. Ultimately results is the difference between getting fired or getting an extension and why they get paid the big bucks. Doesn't matter that most of us would have gotten rid of Scooter, in the end it was a bad move by Stearns.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 07, 2017, 6:53 PM Post
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Outlander said:
Results oriented is the best way to evaluate a trade/signing/draft pick. Ultimately results is the difference between getting fired or getting an extension and why they get paid the big bucks. Doesn't matter that most of us would have gotten rid of Scooter, in the end it was a bad move by Stearns.



Its an awful way to evaluate a trade. If we trade Travis Shaw tomorrow for Asdrubal Cabrera it is a bad deal even if Shaw has a season ending injury the next day. The process matters, the results are so variable that a good 50% of them are out of the GMs hands.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 08, 2017, 4:38 AM Post
Posts: 12301
Gennett was and still is a platoon player who plays below average defense and has only one more year of control after this year. Even in hindsight there wasn't a compelling reason to keep him. It was a much better move to go with someone with upside. It would have been nice to trade him for something but other than that I can find little fault with getting rid of him.

Fan is short for fanatic.
I blame Wang.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 08, 2017, 6:32 AM Post
Posts: 497
Location: Madison, WI
I had been a pretty big Kinsler supporter but am now thinking the biggest upgrade to the lineup wouldn't necessarily be to find a better bat at second base, but a better bat to hit #1 in the lineup. Not sure if Kinsler's .325 OBP would be what I'm looking for.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 08, 2017, 10:35 AM Post
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Results are obviously the way that a GM needs to be judged in the end, but luckily, the window of time is large enough that Stearns will make enough moves that the process will be shown in the results at a high clip.

I'm not going to waste my time telling myself or beating the drum that dropping Scooter or signing Feliz were bad moves. The process was right even if the results were wrong (Scooter is coming back down to earth this month - might end up not being the end of the world).

Without the type of process to take financial risks on guys with superior talent but injury or track record issues like Feliz, we'd not have Thames. This is good/great process. I hope we sign another flamethrower for $5 million next year and see if he can figure it out.

Same with Scooter. It isn't just that Stearns "loves versatility" but Scooter is truly not good on defense at any position other than 2B and he's an OK corner outfielder. Given that knowledge, Villar had shown he was a better hitter at the time than Scooter and therefore was fine for 2B rendering Scooter useless as an above-average hitting utility IF that was very, very bad at 3B (we didn't need OF) and therefore he was not necessary anymore.

Again, that process was sound. We didn't know that Scooter was going to do this or that Villar was going to collapse. I'm not sure a scout or GM in the world would have predicted this before the season.

It's still very possible that Scooter is a slightly improved hitter but remains a poor defender at every position but 2B going forward, still justifying Stearns' decision. His ISO is up and that is basically the difference between now and the past. Is it because he's a launch angle guy now adding more HR or is it just some luck that he's had some wall scrapers at equally/better HR park of GABP? We'll find out. He's been pretty bad this past month.

If Scooter is now an .800 OPS hitter (previously .750 with the Brewers) that has to be shielded from LHP and can only play 2B at an average level...is that something that you would want on the Brewers going forward?

Also, to add: "I don't mind letting Scooter go but I did have an issue with not getting anything for him in a trade" pretty much proves why Stearns' process was right at the time. I'm sure they shopped him, but given that teams knew that the Brewers would be starting Villar at 2B coupled with the fact that most other teams did not covet Gennett show you that his value around the league was quite low and that nobody would have traded for him.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 08, 2017, 10:54 AM Post
Posts: 12301
It's really only a mimor quibble that we didn't get anything for Scooter. I am sure they shopped him.

Fan is short for fanatic.
I blame Wang.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 08, 2017, 4:47 PM Post
Posts: 975
logan82 said:
It's really only a mimor quibble that we didn't get anything for Scooter. I am sure they shopped him.


The ironic thing is that Scooter was considered too limited at 2B, not enough power/speed, and now Scooter has 20 plus HRs while we are seemingly stuck with Villar on our roster wwithout a great option at 2B.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 09, 2017, 12:56 PM Post
Posts: 665
Scooter is having a very good year. Villar is pretty bad. Shaw is having a very good year. Sandoval was released.

Sometimes a change of scenery makes all the difference.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 09, 2017, 1:35 PM Post

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Posts: 2161
kinsler has cleared revocable trade waivers, but the brewers are reportedly on his no-trade list.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 09, 2017, 1:38 PM Post
Posts: 5876
rickh150 said:
logan82 said:
It's really only a mimor quibble that we didn't get anything for Scooter. I am sure they shopped him.


The ironic thing is that Scooter was considered too limited at 2B, not enough power/speed, and now Scooter has 20 plus HRs while we are seemingly stuck with Villar on our roster wwithout a great option at 2B.


Scooter plays PT, benefits from playing at Great American, and is hitting .551 OPS vs LHP.

I said at the time I thought it was a bad idea to let him go. At the same time I understood the logic, and still do. Scooter is a platoon 2B, and that's really hard to justify on a 25 man roster. Sure they wish they had him now, that happens.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 09, 2017, 3:26 PM Post
Posts: 718
Location: New Berlin, WI
FVBrewerFan said:
rickh150 said:

The ironic thing is that Scooter was considered too limited at 2B, not enough power/speed, and now Scooter has 20 plus HRs while we are seemingly stuck with Villar on our roster wwithout a great option at 2B.


Scooter plays PT, benefits from playing at Great American, and is hitting .551 OPS vs LHP.

I said at the time I thought it was a bad idea to let him go. At the same time I understood the logic, and still do. Scooter is a platoon 2B, and that's really hard to justify on a 25 man roster. Sure they wish they had him now, that happens.


Kinda like how the red sox greatly regret the shaw trade...the end result of this decision pales in comparison to that massive blunder.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 09, 2017, 3:30 PM Post
Posts: 1756
wildcat2237 said:
Stearns worships versatility.

Scooter had no versatility.

Stearns was going to jettison Scooter one way or the other. Scooter was not a "Stearns guy."

My problem with the Scooter transaction is that Stearns just gave him away. I never thought Scooter had huge value, but I do think he was worth one or two lower level lottery tickets (think the Lind trade). With the Brewers not planning to compete there was no reason just to DFA Scooter.

To this point the Scooter transaction and Corey Ray pick look like Stearns sole black marks.


The 2017 bullpen, specifically Feliz over Holland.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 09, 2017, 4:05 PM Post
Posts: 665
KeithStone53151 said:
FVBrewerFan said:
rickh150 said:

The ironic thing is that Scooter was considered too limited at 2B, not enough power/speed, and now Scooter has 20 plus HRs while we are seemingly stuck with Villar on our roster wwithout a great option at 2B.


Scooter plays PT, benefits from playing at Great American, and is hitting .551 OPS vs LHP.

I said at the time I thought it was a bad idea to let him go. At the same time I understood the logic, and still do. Scooter is a platoon 2B, and that's really hard to justify on a 25 man roster. Sure they wish they had him now, that happens.


Kinda like how the red sox greatly regret the shaw trade...the end result of this decision pales in comparison to that massive blunder.


Exactly.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 09, 2017, 4:09 PM Post
Posts: 10777
logan82 said:
Gennett was and still is a platoon player who plays below average defense and has only one more year of control after this year. Even in hindsight there wasn't a compelling reason to keep him. It was a much better move to go with someone with upside. It would have been nice to trade him for something but other than that I can find little fault with getting rid of him.


Defensive metrics that show Scooter as below average are the same ones that show Villar to be above average. My eyes tell me just the opposite. I trust my eyes.


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 09, 2017, 4:44 PM Post
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Boomer5 said:
wildcat2237 said:
Stearns worships versatility.

Scooter had no versatility.

Stearns was going to jettison Scooter one way or the other. Scooter was not a "Stearns guy."

My problem with the Scooter transaction is that Stearns just gave him away. I never thought Scooter had huge value, but I do think he was worth one or two lower level lottery tickets (think the Lind trade). With the Brewers not planning to compete there was no reason just to DFA Scooter.

To this point the Scooter transaction and Corey Ray pick look like Stearns sole black marks.


The 2017 bullpen, specifically Feliz over Holland.


The Brewers weren't giving Holland a contract anywhere near what he got. Can we stop talking like it was a flip of the coin as to which one Stearns was going to sign?


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Offline  Re: Ian Kinsler
Posted: August 10, 2017, 3:01 AM Post
Posts: 10214
What we feel Scooter should have been worth doesn't really matter, it only matters what the 29 other GMs felt he was worth, and they felt he was worth nothing. Considering Scooter was replacement level in both 2015 and 2016 this should not come as a surprise.


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