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Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade

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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#41

Posted: July 31, 2017, 8:25 PM Post
Posts: 5741
torts said:
I'm convinced you're the dude in my signature with a new account


Holy cow, you may be right!


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#42

Posted: July 31, 2017, 8:27 PM Post
Posts: 930
FVBrewerFan said:
torts said:
I'm convinced you're the dude in my signature with a new account


Holy cow, you may be right!


Nope, not him.


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#43

Posted: July 31, 2017, 8:38 PM Post
Posts: 5741
One way to find out. What is Brewers record in games youve attended?


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#44

Posted: July 31, 2017, 8:58 PM Post
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FVBrewerFan said:
One way to find out. What is Brewers record in games youve attended?


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#45

Posted: July 31, 2017, 10:11 PM Post
Posts: 2835
When I first started posting here, I liked it when people were reminded that this isn't the Journal Sentinel online comments section, that one needed to have some deeper understanding of Baseball & the Brewers to be respected here. It was a little intimidating at first but made for much better overall reading. The unsubstantiated negativity from some here lately is a bit much. But I still love this place

The David Stearns era: Controllable Young Talent. Watch the Jedi work his magic!


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#46

Posted: July 31, 2017, 10:12 PM Post
Posts: 670
Brewcrewin07 said:
Ennder said:
I have no problem with trading away prospects to get talent but you just have to be realistic with the roster you have. This team is nowhere near as good as the Nationals or Dodgers. We are likely worse than the Diamondbacks and Cubs even with a few additions. So realistically we are hoping the DBacks or Cubs collapse and that we get really lucky and somehow beat 2 teams a lot better than us.

This year the NL is really stacked with top end teams, it just isn't the time to make this kind of move. For me to think we had a good chance to win the World Series this year we would have to trade for 4 or 5 players and at least one of them would need to be an ace pitcher which Sonny Gray is not. So the Brewers could have gone the Yankee's path I guess. Trade for Quintana and Darvish and a couple of the bullpen guys. Maybe we become on even footing with the lesser NL playoff teams. We may or may not make the playoffs since we have ground to make up. That would have taken at least half of our top 10 prospects with some lesser prospects as well. Unlike the Yankees we don't have a bunch of young guys in the bigs performing at a high level though so now we just traded away our near future. It just isn't a good way to run a team, especially one without deep pockets.


This is a great post Ennder..and I'd like to touch on the highlighted quote. First i agree with you that Gray isn't an ace, but Verlander and Darvish are. I also agree with you that they need 4-5 players..Here's what i would have done, and I think you could have done it all without touching Brinson. Now, right or wrong I'm going to base this on the prospect rankings(by system that teams gave up to acquire these players). Now also keep in mind, the topic was about what was needed to compete THIS year...so control is NOT an issue for this comparison. Here's who I would have targeted:

Darvish/Verlander
Wilson
Kinsler
Granderson

That's 4 guys that touch on the Crew's major weaknesses this year..now who would I have given up to acquire these players?? Again remember, really the only baseline we have to compare is the prospect rankings by organization..

Brewers get: Yu Darvish(the Dodgers gave up their #4, #17 & #27 prospects)
Brewers give up: (#4 Brandon Woodruff, #16 Trey Supak(had to substitute him for #17 Ryan Cordell), #27 Larry Ernesto

Brewers get: Justin Wilson
Brewers give up : Isan Daz and Jacob Nottingham

Brewers get: Ian Kinsler
Brewers give up: Hard to judge what it would have taken, but given the Brewers would have taken on salary it couldn't have taken too much..so lets just say they give them a top 30 prospect..Let's just say Kodi Medeiros

Brewers get: Curtis Granderson
Brewers give: Again, hard to say, but let's just say it's a minor piece...pick whoever you want.

In looking at this, would that REALLY have been giving up that much for the Brewers in gaining those players?? I don't think so.

I'm in agreement on this. I would have tried to get Darvish. Dodgers didn't give up the farm and got a stud for a couple months.


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#47

Posted: July 31, 2017, 10:43 PM Post
Posts: 1346
The Brewers window hasn't even started.... they have realistically no true core or players outside of Braun who have any track record that 1st half performance wasn't a fluke. This team has more holes on roster than me trying to play goalie in men's league hockey (that's a lot) Arcia is growing & learning, hopefully Shaw, Domingo, Pina are for real, Braun can't stay on field this season. Villar has been terrible. Sogard is not as great as he started out. Our staff can't stay healthy. With way it's been going, he could have traded for one but they prob get hurt as well. Broxton is fire or ice. Brinson is struggling & mostly ice right now. Thames & Aguilar I still don't know what we truely have.

This is an overachieving team. Please.... for love of all that is holy look at the Nationals roster & staff! That is a contending team! They have a real core! They have 5 guys hitting .320+ with 20+HRs! Even without Strasburg, their rotation is strong!

Trading away our system to pretend we are even close to a true contender would be laughable. Windows start when top prospects come up & perform, Arcia & know Brinson are only two. Hader isn't starting. We will get there but no need to try to skip steps.


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#48

Posted: August 01, 2017, 7:51 AM Post
Posts: 1640
Location: Madison, WI
Wow. There is no way Stearns is on the hot seat. Ownership seemed prepared for a multi year rebuild including some serious losing. It looks like we topped out with one 68 win year and a 73 win year and seem currently setup to continue being competitive from here out. And only one of those years was intentionally losing. Now we're supposed to be mad that the rebuild has gone so well that we're winning early but not winning enough, cmon.

I'm confident if the team didn't go to crap the last 3 weeks and still had a 3-6 game lead that they would have done something more significant to help assure them holding onto the division, in spite of knowing the Dodgers and Nats are loaded. Division titles matter and anything can happen in the playoffs. So if you're a few games ahead with 60 games left you have to go for it. Instead our team has fallen apart and Cubs got hot, now making this a serious uphill proposition and not worth significant prospects. Small bullpen improvements at low cost, yea why not, if we can get hot an pull it out, great. if not, the Cubs have blown their whole farm and don't look as much of a juggernaut as we feared. So can be more competitive alot quicker than we thought a year or so back. Plus Scherzer isn't exactly young and Harper is likely gone I think after next season (hopefully to NY and not CHC) so the Nats window is closing. I don't think the Dodgers are going anywhere anytime soon though. Also, keep in mind there wasn't a true CC/Greinke level pitcher out there. Gray/Quintana are solid pitchers, but not like that level. Darvish is a 2 month rental for us so I think we can all agree on not doing that.

Look at this way, we went into this year expecting to be done well before the ASB (heck probably by mid May) and we're still in it, enjoy the ride. Hope for the bats to come back and keep us in this longer, with the head to heads vs the Cubs anything can happen. It's a true underdog story, get it back going tonight.


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#49

Posted: August 01, 2017, 8:57 AM Post
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Posts: 16
Location: Chicago
I think its a valid criticism for an organization to overvalue its own prospects. Winning in baseball is hard, look no further than the Prince Fielder and Ryan Braun years. That core managed but three winning seasons and overall went 501- 471 (.515) from 2006 through 2011. There simply is no guarantee that the Brewers will be in the division race next year or in years to come. There's disadvantages to both sides of making a deal or not making a deal. Without quality reinforcements the Brewers will likely fade down the stretch in 2017, however the team's decision makers believe they're better off in the long run to have held on to all their key minor league players.

Which brings up the second point: by definition prospect means many of these players will fail. Again, look no further than the archived Power 50 lists on this web page to see a litany of players who failed despite being touted as having great potential by some folks here who follow seriously the minor leagues: Will Inman, Angel Salome, Cole Gillespie, Matt Laporta, Mat Gamel, Zach Braddock, etc.

As a fan I'm disappointed that there weren't reinforcements brought in this year, and I'm skeptical about how many of the prospects the Brewers have will turn out to be difference makers at the major league level, but the people who make these decisions have in essence staked their credibility on their evaluations of the players they currently have and as fans all we can do is sit back and see what happens this year and down the road.


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Online  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#50

Posted: August 01, 2017, 9:20 AM Post
Posts: 6271
Location: Kenosha, WI
All these people touting trading a bunch of major prospects to be an OK contender(probably wild card level) I am just curious your thoughts on the last 3 weeks.


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#51

Posted: August 01, 2017, 9:20 AM Post
Posts: 946
Weird... in 2014, I remember that many here wanted simply to get in. The playoffs meant "if you're in, anything can happen!" Now it seems, with DS, many do not want us striving for that Wild Card this year because there is no way we can compete with Dodgers, Nats, Cubs, etc. Better to trade NO prospects for any type of rental, no matter how cheap we could get him for. Better to just play the young guys and lead Villar off, no matter how close to first or the wild card we are because we'll probably just lose anyway.

Have we gone mad?
Let's just say we would have picked up JD Martinez and Ian Kinsler, along with Jeffress and Swarzek. Domingo is in center with Broxton as late inning replacement. Does anyone think these acquisitions would have been anywhere near expensive? We would have parted with like 2 more kinda quality guys, maybe 2 in the top 30, but not in the top 10.

Count me as someone who thinks we pissed our chances away at the All Star break by waaaaaay over valuing lower ranked prospects for legit talent to fill major gaps at 2B and CF. That being said, DS can redeem himself in early August by still making waiver moves that help us now that don't put the rebuild in any sort of jeopardy.


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#52

Posted: August 01, 2017, 9:29 AM Post
Posts: 1640
Location: Madison, WI
I mean, we currently have 3 healthy starting pitchers. I know it's still been good since the ASB break overall but can anyone look at a starting rotation of Nelson, Davies, Suter, ?, ? and think this is realistic right now to go all in and trade for hitters to fix those holes, while also finding relievers to fix that glaring hole, oh and also finding a legit starter or two? First, think what it would cost to fill those holes. Second, if you have that many holes are you really that close?


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#53

Posted: August 01, 2017, 9:34 AM Post
Posts: 9992
rickh150 said:
Weird... in 2014, I remember that many here wanted simply to get in. The playoffs meant "if you're in, anything can happen!" Now it seems, with DS, many do not want us striving for that Wild Card this year because there is no way we can compete with Dodgers, Nats, Cubs, etc. Better to trade NO prospects for any type of rental, no matter how cheap we could get him for. Better to just play the young guys and lead Villar off, no matter how close to first or the wild card we are because we'll probably just lose anyway.

Have we gone mad?
Let's just say we would have picked up JD Martinez and Ian Kinsler, along with Jeffress and Swarzek. Domingo is in center with Broxton as late inning replacement. Does anyone think these acquisitions would have been anywhere near expensive? We would have parted with like 2 more kinda quality guys, maybe 2 in the top 30, but not in the top 10.

Count me as someone who thinks we pissed our chances away at the All Star break by waaaaaay over valuing lower ranked prospects for legit talent to fill major gaps at 2B and CF. That being said, DS can redeem himself in early August by still making waiver moves that help us now that don't put the rebuild in any sort of jeopardy.


Its ironic that people bring up 2014, because standings wise we were in a very similar position to what we are now, even a bit better then.

Yet we made no significant moves, just Gerardo Parra. Why not? Because our farm system had been completely depleted from previous trades, and we had nothing of real value to offer to any seller.

We were also in a very different time for our organization in 2014 and our organizational philosophy was different to reflect that. It's an apples to oranges comparison to compare 2017 to 2014.


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#54

Posted: August 01, 2017, 9:35 AM Post
Posts: 1226
YoungGeezy1 said:
The Brewers window hasn't even started.... they have realistically no true core or players outside of Braun who have any track record that 1st half performance wasn't a fluke. This team has more holes on roster than me trying to play goalie in men's league hockey (that's a lot) Arcia is growing & learning, hopefully Shaw, Domingo, Pina are for real, Braun can't stay on field this season. Villar has been terrible. Sogard is not as great as he started out. Our staff can't stay healthy. With way it's been going, he could have traded for one but they prob get hurt as well. Broxton is fire or ice. Brinson is struggling & mostly ice right now. Thames & Aguilar I still don't know what we truely have.

This is an overachieving team. Please.... for love of all that is holy look at the Nationals roster & staff! That is a contending team! They have a real core! They have 5 guys hitting .320+ with 20+HRs! Even without Strasburg, their rotation is strong!

Trading away our system to pretend we are even close to a true contender would be laughable. Windows start when top prospects come up & perform, Arcia & know Brinson are only two. Hader isn't starting. We will get there but no need to try to skip steps.


Is that the same Washington team that were it not for a 8 run 8th inning we probably take 2 of 3? I doubt the 15-2 would have been so lopsided in that case either.

Amazes me how undersold the major league roster of this franchise can be while the minors prospects are talked up in the opposite fashion.


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#55

Posted: August 01, 2017, 9:40 AM Post
Posts: 9992
superfly said:
YoungGeezy1 said:
The Brewers window hasn't even started.... they have realistically no true core or players outside of Braun who have any track record that 1st half performance wasn't a fluke. This team has more holes on roster than me trying to play goalie in men's league hockey (that's a lot) Arcia is growing & learning, hopefully Shaw, Domingo, Pina are for real, Braun can't stay on field this season. Villar has been terrible. Sogard is not as great as he started out. Our staff can't stay healthy. With way it's been going, he could have traded for one but they prob get hurt as well. Broxton is fire or ice. Brinson is struggling & mostly ice right now. Thames & Aguilar I still don't know what we truely have.

This is an overachieving team. Please.... for love of all that is holy look at the Nationals roster & staff! That is a contending team! They have a real core! They have 5 guys hitting .320+ with 20+HRs! Even without Strasburg, their rotation is strong!

Trading away our system to pretend we are even close to a true contender would be laughable. Windows start when top prospects come up & perform, Arcia & know Brinson are only two. Hader isn't starting. We will get there but no need to try to skip steps.


Is that the same Washington team that were it not for a 8 run 8th inning we probably take 2 of 3? I doubt the 15-2 would have been so lopsided in that case either.

Amazes me how undersold the major league roster of this franchise can be while the minors prospects are talked up in the opposite fashion.


It doesn't make a lot of sense to cite the talent of a team based off the results of one there game series. The Padres swept the Cubs last month, it doesn't mean the Padres are better than the Cubs.

He's absolutely right -- talent-wise, we are not there yet with teams like the Nats, Dodgers and Cubs. Not yet.


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Online  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#56

Posted: August 01, 2017, 9:40 AM Post
Posts: 6271
Location: Kenosha, WI
For the last time DOMINGO SANTANA CANT AND WONT PLAY CF.


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#57

Posted: August 01, 2017, 9:44 AM Post
Posts: 223
Location: Milwaukee
dacbrewers said:
Brewcrewin07 said:
Ennder said:
I have no problem with trading away prospects to get talent but you just have to be realistic with the roster you have. This team is nowhere near as good as the Nationals or Dodgers. We are likely worse than the Diamondbacks and Cubs even with a few additions. So realistically we are hoping the DBacks or Cubs collapse and that we get really lucky and somehow beat 2 teams a lot better than us.

This year the NL is really stacked with top end teams, it just isn't the time to make this kind of move. For me to think we had a good chance to win the World Series this year we would have to trade for 4 or 5 players and at least one of them would need to be an ace pitcher which Sonny Gray is not. So the Brewers could have gone the Yankee's path I guess. Trade for Quintana and Darvish and a couple of the bullpen guys. Maybe we become on even footing with the lesser NL playoff teams. We may or may not make the playoffs since we have ground to make up. That would have taken at least half of our top 10 prospects with some lesser prospects as well. Unlike the Yankees we don't have a bunch of young guys in the bigs performing at a high level though so now we just traded away our near future. It just isn't a good way to run a team, especially one without deep pockets.


This is a great post Ennder..and I'd like to touch on the highlighted quote. First i agree with you that Gray isn't an ace, but Verlander and Darvish are. I also agree with you that they need 4-5 players..Here's what i would have done, and I think you could have done it all without touching Brinson. Now, right or wrong I'm going to base this on the prospect rankings(by system that teams gave up to acquire these players). Now also keep in mind, the topic was about what was needed to compete THIS year...so control is NOT an issue for this comparison. Here's who I would have targeted:

Darvish/Verlander
Wilson
Kinsler
Granderson

That's 4 guys that touch on the Crew's major weaknesses this year..now who would I have given up to acquire these players?? Again remember, really the only baseline we have to compare is the prospect rankings by organization..

Brewers get: Yu Darvish(the Dodgers gave up their #4, #17 & #27 prospects)
Brewers give up: (#4 Brandon Woodruff, #16 Trey Supak(had to substitute him for #17 Ryan Cordell), #27 Larry Ernesto

Brewers get: Justin Wilson
Brewers give up : Isan Daz and Jacob Nottingham

Brewers get: Ian Kinsler
Brewers give up: Hard to judge what it would have taken, but given the Brewers would have taken on salary it couldn't have taken too much..so lets just say they give them a top 30 prospect..Let's just say Kodi Medeiros

Brewers get: Curtis Granderson
Brewers give: Again, hard to say, but let's just say it's a minor piece...pick whoever you want.

In looking at this, would that REALLY have been giving up that much for the Brewers in gaining those players?? I don't think so.

I'm in agreement on this. I would have tried to get Darvish. Dodgers didn't give up the farm and got a stud for a couple months.

In no way would I part with 6yrs of a MLB ready Woodruff for 2 months of Darvish. Woodruff is making his debut on Thur and most likely will get 3-4 starts and once Chase is back they'll have to figure out who's removed from the rotation but with him being MLB ready with a 94-96 fastball, late breaking slider to keep guys off his fastball (which he leads with) and an improving change - controlling all of them - there's no way I'm parting with that for 2 months of a playoff run we're most likely not going to win.

I understand you're just looking at what we need to compete this year but you can't remove player control as that's an important variable when making deals and which players are involved.

If we did all those deals and don't overtake the Cubs for the division then we just gave up Woodruff, Diaz, Nottingham, Supak, Kodi, Ernesto + 1 for 1yr of Wilson. So, yes, we would really be giving up a lot. Big picture....


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#58

Posted: August 01, 2017, 9:47 AM Post
Posts: 946
MrTPlush said:
For the last time DOMINGO SANTANA CANT AND WONT PLAY CF.


He did last season.... he still could a few games a week.
He won't? Unless you are Garza, I didn't think players controlled where or when they played.


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#59

Posted: August 01, 2017, 9:57 AM Post
Posts: 946
tmwiese55 said:
I mean, we currently have 3 healthy starting pitchers. I know it's still been good since the ASB break overall but can anyone look at a starting rotation of Nelson, Davies, Suter, ?, ? and think this is realistic right now to go all in and trade for hitters to fix those holes, while also finding relievers to fix that glaring hole, oh and also finding a legit starter or two? First, think what it would cost to fill those holes. Second, if you have that many holes are you really that close?


First off filling holes at the All Star break would have helped us win 2 or 3 lost games. Filling holes at 2B and CF wouldn't have cost much based on what rentals are going for..... take a look at what the best bullpen rental (Neshek) cost prospect wise, the best rental bat (JD Martinez) cost prospect wise....
Injuries are playing a factor with the rotation over the last week. Woodruff is going to get a shot. Garza will be back shortly. Anderson will be back in 3 weeks. Hader could start, if wanted. It's not as dire as you make it to be.....


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Offline  Re: Brewers were exchanging names up until deadline, including one bigger trade
#60

Posted: August 01, 2017, 10:22 AM Post
Posts: 1640
Location: Madison, WI
rickh150 said:
tmwiese55 said:
I mean, we currently have 3 healthy starting pitchers. I know it's still been good since the ASB break overall but can anyone look at a starting rotation of Nelson, Davies, Suter, ?, ? and think this is realistic right now to go all in and trade for hitters to fix those holes, while also finding relievers to fix that glaring hole, oh and also finding a legit starter or two? First, think what it would cost to fill those holes. Second, if you have that many holes are you really that close?


First off filling holes at the All Star break would have helped us win 2 or 3 lost games. Filling holes at 2B and CF wouldn't have cost much based on what rentals are going for..... take a look at what the best bullpen rental (Neshek) cost prospect wise, the best rental bat (JD Martinez) cost prospect wise....
Injuries are playing a factor with the rotation over the last week. Woodruff is going to get a shot. Garza will be back shortly. Anderson will be back in 3 weeks. Hader could start, if wanted. It's not as dire as you make it to be.....


So, we're like 7 players away. Are we really that close then? And even if you pull all that off, look at what you'd have compared to LAD and WAS.


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